I can't begin to calculate the amount we heal until I know the Spell Power coefficient. 1.88 was stated earleir, but the Paladin healing spells don't match.

Here's why I ask about coefficient:
Holy Guidance - Increases your spell power by 20% of your total Intellect.
Nature's Blessing - Increases your healing by an amount equal to 15% of your Intellect.

If both a paladin and shaman have 500 Intellect, then a shaman gets +75 healing. A Paladin gets 100 spell power which translates to +188 healing based on the assumed coefficient of 1.88.

No, doubt it, healing power will be spellpower + healing only bonusses, but it will also be before the higher coefficient or mod.

You can find that from the wording a blue used about Natures Blessing, he said that the 15% of Int -> healing power will have almost the same net result as the old ability, for healing spells then, yes, we'd loose spelldamage but that would be more then compensated by the change to spellpower in general.

The tooltip from Holy Guidiance is missleading. Its currently 20% SpellPower (Damage) and 35% SpellPower (Healing).

:: Holy Guidance - Spell - World of Warcraft

I think it's not intented and will be fixed -> Blue Post

Correct.

Blizzard removed Blessing of Light and baked it to paladins base healing coefficient. Numbers are correct. Paladin formula change 1.88 to 2.33.

That's what i thought considering refreshment is ((0,25/100)*totalmanagained), mana tide is ((24/100)*totalmanagained), healing power from nature's blessing is ((15/100)*intellect) and 1% crit = 59,60648148 crit rating.
Considering you have 14 gem slots in your equip and you want to try slotting everyone with 4mana5secs gems or 10int gems that's what u could gain.

not considering bonuses from matching gems, considering the fight will last 5 minutes and having refreshement up whole fight.

all blue = 4*14 = 56mana5

all yellow = (10*14) = 140 intellect = 2100 mana

without kings and ancestral knowledge
healing power=(15/100)*140= 21
mana5= mana tide + refresh =8,4 + 26,525 =34,65 mana5
crit= 2,3487

with only kings
healing power=23,1
mana5= 9,24+28,875 = 38,115mana5
crit= 2,5836

with kings and ancestral knowledge
healing power=25,2
mana5= 10,08+31,5= 41,58
crit=2,8184

Tell me if I'm doing something wrong considering mana regeneration.

Corrected calculation but still considering the rest.
I'll try to consider Mana Tide as "a plus" to Mana Spring since they both works on same school, so that the real boost from Mana Spring is less (-150 mana nearly from 3 mana spring ticks)
Still trying to log on ptr to check crit since when I checked it i didn't remember I had already +4% from blessing of eternals.

delete please

Haha, zumzum got owned I posted the calculations on int vs other stats 2 times, Int wins bigtime (4,5 mp5 from Repl buff, 1,5 from mana tide, 3mp5 on a 10 min fight and 3,6 spellpower and 12,5 crit rating (based on 100 int = 1% crit and 52 crit rating=1%) for a 20 Int gem (the WotLK epic gem)). One problem is that Int is even better for Spirit users, as Int increases the amount of Mp5 gained from spirit.

Anyway, I was thinking about resto shamans and mana regeneration and how we're so screwed there, when it kinda struck me. Our problem is not just that our mana regeneration system is bad (IWS is crapp) and mp5 is far less abundant then spirit, but we lack a natural balance of mana income <-> mana outflow (now that downranking is removed).

All other healing classes can sacrifice HPS or use cheap HoTs for mana concervation, shamans are the only class that does not have this option. We have HW, LHW and CH, all very expensive, there is no way we can conserve mana other then by not casting, it's all or nothing, and that is simply not viable.

What shamans need is a cheap, crappy heal to use whenever possible to balance out our mana expenses. That is what we did with downranking, cheaper less powerfull heals to keep our mana income/outflow balanced.

Now I know Blizzard wants to make mana a real issue again and such spells are a danger to that balance, as ging haste + spellpower might be better then mp5 and use more of our powerfull heals again. But it sure as hell beats what is going to happen now, shamans not being able to cast heals all the time as the heals that we have are so damn damn expensive.

I'm inclined to agree with you. Shamans got hurt the worst with the downranking change, as cancel casting and catching full regen ticks is not an effective alternative. Resto shamans had the worst mana problems of any healer in early TBC, and they should be ready to repeat that experience in WotLK. Without the crutch of chain-chugging or shadow priests to compensate for the lack of in-class regen mechanics, they are probably just going to be passed by in favour of other specs until a few tiers down the road when their int/mp5 values catch up to the cost of their spells.

Water Shield and Improved Water Shield also worry me, as we have sort of a "reverse-lifetap" situation here... as our crit increases, we will have to spend more GCDs on Water Shield, sacrificing throughput. If the talent also added charges, or refreshed the Water Shield spell when it procced (to 3 charges), well, that'd be just dandy.

Holy crap that's a nice way "to start" (my first post); still you gotta consider I didn't have the will to read all 32 pages but checked only last 4 and so I made all mats on my own.
The "only" problem is not having any "mana talent" or spell affected by chain heal use; the only solution I could see right now is making some kind of rotation riptide>lhw/hw>lhw/hw>ch>lhw/hw>riptide>lhw/hw and so on (considering the fact that they said riptide should be soon affected by improved water shield) but making rotations while healing raid is different (frustrating imo) from making rotation with only one target.
Now tell me that rotation has been already mentioned and I stop posting here -.-''

Ah, I always think, better to say something while you might be wrong then to say nothing so you can't be wrong.

problem with such a rotation (riptide>lhw/hw>lhw/hw>ch>lhw/hw>riptide>lhw/hw) would be that is has no place in raiding or PvP, in 5 mans I could see it happening, maybe even in 10 mans, but not in 25 man raids or PvP. In raids you are either raid healing or tank healing, none of those benefit from such a rotaion.

Tidal waves neeeds to work both ways (even if that means the HW/LHW coefficient increases has to be dropped), RP/CH power LHW/HW and HW/LHW power up Rp/CH, that would really change the way we heal and would be damn effective in every healing role we could get.

The rotation is fine on paper, but won't work in practice. First off there's no way you can time a Riptide on one of the raid so you can start off a big Chain Heal on that person when its close to ending, without that one being the MT (which means you raidheal only the tanks + maybe melee). Secondly, you will not have the mana to constantly spam HW's around with big chunks of haste, unless you're purely going to be healing reactively (as in someone takes damage, you start a heal) and stand around doing nothing the rest of the time.

Blues have already said our main spell will still be Chain Heal. If this really is the case (and by looking at the mana costs, one has to agree), then talents as Ancestral Awakening, Tidal Waves, Healing Way, Impr Healing Wave and to some extent Impr WS are all gimmick talents providing minor boosts to your healing and mana management.

Keeping that in mind, we also have to evaluate our role as totem dropper. Enhancement Shamans will drop Strength and Windfury as buffs. If you have an elemental shaman, you'll see him dropping ToW and WoA and possibly mana as well. This leaves only a few totem possibilities for Resto Shamans. First off healing stream will be a nice raidwide HoT to keep up, but we can also help by dumping out Stoneskin to help on mitigation for tanks. This and the blue comment on Chain Heal, leads me to a build like this:
Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

With roughly 1.4k extra armor, your tanks are having more mitigation. The buffed Earthliving (+45 spellpower) will certainly help Chain Heal the most, especially when glyphed for a 4th target and the 5% extra proc on Earthliving as well. This is how I see the role sketched out for us @ 80 now. Not MT/OT healing with crazy hastey mana draining heals (we have priests, druids and paladins who can do this way better than us), but by chaincasting Chain Heal with insane procs of Earthliving all around whilst maintaining Riptide on the tank.

If this is true, it's a damned shame of course that Blizz is given us all these new useless talents, but to me I see no other role that is actually viable at this moment mana wise.

nono, if you have an elemental shaman and one enhancement imo you don't need at all a resto shaman in a raid since they both provide better totems than a resto can do (but that's only my pov).
If you really want to be a Chain heal spammer you should really go for something with both imrpoved CH and unrelenting storm :|

If you are tank healing you do not care about other people in the raid, so the CH and AA procs healing other people is just a wast of your healing.

When raid healing you will use CH, so all the new abilities wont make you any better, as they're all HW/LHW based.

In PvP you dont want CH, maybe not even HW in your rotation.

So no, I can't see any use of the rotations Blizzard is trying to force on to us.

I don't see any other use atm for restoration shamans sorry. Those were all my bullets.
How should we play then? I mean, they cannot have made all those new talents for nothing.

Well, they did

They want a crit based system, but the talents just aren't going to work in reality, are to weak or have to many drawbacks.

they want us from CH spammage, but offer no viable other way of healing, they actually went back on that statement, which and said that CH will stay our main heal (while our talent tree is still mainly HW/LHW based).

It just doesn't make much sense, which isn't to hopeful no.

I actually think the talents as they sit will work great for 5 mans and 10 mans. Where we will be weak is 25 mans

In 5 mans we will be spamming CH, which means we will have TW up all the time to use on tanks in a pseudo rotation (use the 1.75s HW as needed).

In 10 mans, we can raid heal and once again use CH/RT and then HW as needed to help heal tanks (assuming 2 healer combo's. Even more useful with 3 healers)

In 25 mans things become much more specialized, and thats where we are weak right now. If RT is improved ALOT, we would be viable MT healers. If some of our talents started being affected by CH we would be good raid healers. But for now neither of those is the case, so we are meh at both. CH is still our best bet for a raid spot IMHO. I can pull off 2.1k HPS on some fights in Sunwell (Muru especially). If I can scale that properly @ 80, I should get a raid spot.

Right now I think that 1 resto shammie will be viable in 25 mans, but never more than that. Similar to druids in BC. Im ok with that, I will just end up gearing for both resto and Enh so I can be the swing shammie and rotate with the other shammies in our raids. (right now we bring 4 regularly, 2 resto, 1 enh, 1 ele)

I`m just wondering how we got back to Shaman`s having poor mana regen, when we have someone that has said he has no problems with mana right now in raids. I think the real issues is simply people expecting to play the way they played in TBC. (Which is understandable, but not helpful moving forward.)

Also, as I see the healing situation, I don`t think that we can simply have a healing spell rotation, but more of a healing spell priority, were we will cast lesser healing waves in low damage encounters (which cost virtually nothing with the new watershield talents) and Riptide and chain heals in more heavy raid damage situations.

As for what we bring to raid, I feel that we bring about as much as any other class will to raids, when all is said and done. According to Blizzard, many of the changes are intended to make it so that it doesn`t matter what class you bring to raid. But simply that you can play with whom ever you want to play with. That may not sit well with people in a more competitive raid environment, but that is the intent of Blizzard.

Ill state this again, as I dis when the downranking nerf hit, what we need is a efficient medium sized heal, something along the lines of

Shammie Medium Heal
12-15% mana
1.5k heal
85% coefficent
2.5s cast
Affected by TW, healing way, AF, and IWS

@ 70 with 1450 SP, thats
raw: ~2725
3xHW: ~3100
3xHW + TW: ~4k


This would give us a heal which completely the healing umbrella for shamies

For big heals, you have healing wave (slow, really big, but mana inefficient)
For fast heals you have RT and LHW (fast, low healing, inefficient)
For raid heals you have CH (slow, relatively efficient with 3/4 targets)
For cleanup and MT assists you have the medium heal (allows for helping tank healing, combining with MT healing, keeping healing way up if MT healing, very low cost with high crit%, and keeping AF up. Also give a mana efficient option for using TW procs)

I know these numbers work out to give us a great new heal. Its intentional. HW and LHW will always be situational in their current form. I dont see that as a problem. Just give a new spell to utilize with CH so we can maximize out new talents and leave HW/LHW alone.

I don't understand the argument that shamans do nothing but Chain Heal in raids. On some fights, yes. Twins? Sure, Chain Heal nonstop. Reliquary? Chain Heal. Illidan p2? Thaddius in Naxx? Sure.

But K'J? Archimonde? Illidan outside of p2? Any fight where people are spread out, or where the damage is primarily single-target RSTS?

Tidal Waves is excellent as-is precisely because of what raid healing entails. Chain Heal is great HPS and HPM when it's getting all its bounces, but sometimes people will suddenly take a huge spike and CH isn't going to get the job done. Being able to pump out a big quick HW and return to CH spam is crucial. Same deal with Riptide. Yes, Riptide isn't Chain Heal, but last I checked, other than once every 3min, you can't cast CH or HW while moving, and virtually every modern raid encounter requires movement. Given the choice between no options at all for a given situation and a middling one, I'll take the latter every time. Being able to do something like pre-HoT a tank when he's healthy and then bounce a CH off him 14sec later for a nice bonus is icing on the cake.

Noone is saying that out talents are bad, in fact I said I liked them. Except that they are poorly optimized so that we have very little reason to shift our % of chain heal from its current level to a lower one with HW and LHW going up in the process.

The reason for that depends on the heal

1) RT- Instant healing is great, but if you think you you can 'pre HOT' someone with it, hop on the PTR and see for yourself that healing stream does more than RT's HoT. If your going to pre-load to get TW up oon a tank, CH is actually a better bet in most cases.

2) HW- Very nice, but the ammount healed is actually a bit high for what its used for. In 25 mans, you usually have 1-3 other healers on a tank. You want to precast if possible, but for some fights, cast/cancel just does not work. For those (since we cant downrank any more) you are going to be overhealing alot with 6k heals, and wasting ALOT of mana. In many cases, just spamming 4k chain heal does the job just fine.

3) LHW- great quick heal for oh shit moments, but very inefficient. Even with 30% crit you are returning 1/3 of 1 WS orb per cast on avrage, which does very little to improve the high mana cost.

All of these are great situational heals. None of them comes close to bumping CH off the top slot. Even with all the talents none of them become really even close. Especially if we have to gem and itemize for mana instead of crit.

I actually like our talents and skills as they sit right now. If no further improvements were made I think resto would still get spots in many 25 mans. But I will also bet that the average # of resto shaman per raid would go from WAY to high as it is now (2-5 depending on the fight) to less than one, overnight. IMHO the optimal number is one, and unless we get a little help we will not be at one come 80 and naxx.

to get to that goal of 1 raid spot for reasto, we need either

1) rip tide to be hugely buffed
2) Geneal mana regen to be better, and more crit based (so that crit is better than int)
3) We get an alternate heal that fills the gap as I described above. something on par with CH, or maybe slightly below it in usefulness.

Edit: (4th option just occured to me)
4) Make healing wave a srtraight 20% increase in RT/HE/LHW, lower the base heal of HW by 20% and lower the cost by 20%. This would have the effect of bumping keeping the HW heals the same while lowering the cost by 20% if you spend the 3 talent points. Only issue with this is you no longer have a BIG heal, which is situationally useful.

Please take a moment to proofread your posts before hitting Submit. This post was borderline infractable.

Yes, I have used Riptide on beta. Yes, I'm familiar with raid healing at 80.

First off, Riptide is not primarily a raid tool. It shines in smaller situations (5, some 10-man) and in PvP. In a 25-man raid, yeah, druids have better HoTs. If someone needs a HoT, let the druid do it. I have no problem with that. But it's an extra option -- when you need to move, and you will, you can still do something to help out, whether it's tossing Riptide at a low-hp DPS class, or a small heal and HoT buffer on the tank that you can strip off later with Chain Heal.

I think concerns about HW overheal are minimal. Have you seen buffed HP pools at 80? Tanks will all have >30k, but more importantly, regular DPS classes and other healers will all have close to 20k. At that point, a 7.5k heal that crits for 12k doesn't seem small anymore. In fact, anything smaller would barely be useful.

I do think it'd be nice for Riptide's up-front heal to be a bit bigger, but otherwise I'm satisfied with resto shamans overall.