Durnitol

INT = (MP5/1.67 + SP/5.55 + CR/3)

According to the numbers in your link,

So assuming MP5 and CR stat ranks remain static, until SP's item stat rank is just under 1.7, SP will always be better. This number increases, however, as CR and/or MP5 ranks increase. If MP5 goes up to 3.0, for example, INT and SP are about equal at 2.4

 

Titanx

Edit: by Durnitol's latest post it does seem INT is the way to go, with spellpower coming in a bit behind it.

 

Durnitol

No Titanx, I do not claim that at all!!!

We don't have the knowledge on what each stat's rank is yet. If previous people's assertions are correct, then SP is still the dominant stat, but if SP's rank is lowered, or MP5 goes up, then INT may be the dominant stat.

The thing that Pitbuller was expressing is that item budgets tend to allow a much larger amount on INT than the other stats considering their effectiveness. For example, despite the fact that 1 mp5 yields more mana than 1 INT, there is a 2:5 ratio of MP5 to INT for budgeting on gems. The net result is that while each INT isn't intrinsically worth more, you get way more net value for INT than MP5.

Right now, however, the assumption is that SP is not only worth more than INT per point, but you also get more SP on items than INT. If SP becomes worth less per point, then INT may be worth more.

You have to remember, though, that SP provides something different than INT or MP5, so you will end up having to judge for yourself what the right call is. If you are running out of mana, get INT. If you have lots of mana but people keep dying around you, get SP.

 

Titanx

Ah ok, thanks for the explanation. Sorry for the mixup. I guess I'll have a better idea after raiding tonight (if server lag isn't a problem). I'm wondering with the potion debuff how good the Redeemer's Alchemist Stone still is. My guess is that it's still the best with the high amount of SP and you still get the benefit from one potion, but we'll have to see.

 

• Caladiera

[Redeemer's Alchemist Stone] is still awesome for a majority of fights, but on longer fights (Illidan) it may be worth considering a pure regen trinket.

Below are the calculations for expected regen for 2 fight durations:

[Super Mana Potion] gives 1800 - 3000 mana or 2400 mana/avg

The 40% bonus gives 720 - 1200 or 960 mana/avg

On a 3 minute fight:
low: (720mana/180sec)*5 = 20mp5
high: (1200mana/180sec)*5 = 33mp5
avg: (960mana/180sec)*5 = 26mp5

On a 6 minute fight:
low: (720mana/360sec)*5 = 10mp5
high: (1200mana/360sec)*5 = 17mp5
avg: (960mana/360sec)*5 = 13mp5

I am neglecting the +63 spell power.

So on a <6min fight, it equals [Memento of Tyrande], but quickly degrades

 

Ninarz

Noticed that this was in the patch notes:

Elemental Focus (Elemental): Now also can proc off Lesser Healing Wave and Healing Wave, and can be used on all healing spells.

Apologies if this was discussed before, but I thought this was not going to proc from healing spells. Did they change their minds?

 

Vissi

The patch notes are not accurate, go by what was on the last build of the PTR.

 

Tyrunur

A calculation based on 5 minute fights is basically flawed.
I assume that most ppl reading here are raiders, so a fight length of 10 minutes would be more accurate. That should favor mp5 some more.

 

Pitbuller

Tyrunur: There isn't any 10minute fight without phase shifts or regen periods. 6 minute full burn fights are longest.

Slow, slower, shaman weapon.

 

Masterdragon

I've actually been thinking that [Fel Mana Potion] would be a bit better for use now with the whole potion sickness. With the trinket its 4480 mana everytime with no randomization involved. The 40% bonus to 3200 is 1280. Granted we'll take a little healing nerf but trying to squeeze out every drop of mana might end up being worth it. Not to mention if you get stuck on the low end of a mana pot and getting only 2520 mana back with the mana pot.

2520-4200 vs a flat 4480 mana with a minor healing debuff is the question.

 

Grimtaash

If you can spare the time, perhaps a major dreamless sleep potion would be valuable as well.

Any reports from the field from yesterday?

 

Teenee

The duration of the debuff is also significant as it stacks. 15 minutes is a very long time for that duration to last.

 

• Caladiera

Hi Tyrunur,

I agree with Pitbuller, the only exception may be Council. Depending on your healing assignment, raid gear level and whether they are a progression or farm fight it can go 15min.

The 2 times I used were loosely based on Teron (3min) & Brutallus (6min).

As for [Fel Mana Potion], it could be awesome, if you have a fair amount of trash to clear between bosses (BT, The Eye) so the debuff doesn't stack.

 

Raiste

so one thing I noticed in the brief time I got to play with the new toys on live is that mana spring is indeed party only but it stacks. I was grouped with an elemental shaman in a 5 man and i was getting 20mp2 from his mana spring as well as 25mp2 from my own. Healing stream is the same way. Would create some interesting oppertunities for stacking manaspring / healing stream groups in raids on niche encounters.

 

Kirion

It doesn't matter. You won't be able to drink second one in fight, and if you wipe, debuff will not stay.

42.

 

Spifli

A paladin Aura change that would be awesome for totems:

 

Tyrunur

For most cases I guess I will have to agree with you and Caladiera. So I guess it's rather a question of secondary equipments for fights like Council and Felmyst.

 

Aanzeijar

At the current state you'll have to cut even those down to 6' and 3'30". Full burn will get you in trouble after at most 4 minutes. Somehow we managed to let Felmyst live 8 minutes yesterday (kill with 19 deaths... don't ask), and there I could regen more than enough to get by. On Twins and Brutallus on the other hand, my mana just flew away. Our priests had it even worse and managed to circle themselves out of mana in a matter of seconds.

 

Raiste

hmm My experience in sunwell was the complete opposite of Anazeijar's. I regemmed a bit to +int gems (changed out all my +haste gems) and never really went close to being OOM. I was pretty much spamming 2.1 sec Chain Heal 5s the whole night with ~16k buffed mana and 3 sources of replenishment in the raid. We cleared through M'uru yesterday and I never ended any boss fight at less than 10k mana.

 

pudds

I have a quick question regarding healing in 5 mans (and possible 10 mans, though I don't make it into them as often): Where does Riptide fit in, exactly? Or does it fit in at all?

The synergy between Riptide (increase next Chain Heal), Chain Heal (decrease cast on next Healing Wave), and Healing Wave, seems to logically point to a Riptide -> Chain Heal -> Healing Wave rotation (perhaps even further improved with Healing Way), however, Riptide just doesn't seem to feel quite right as an opening heal. The heal is negligible enough that last night I often didn't feel safe delaying my Chain Heal with the extra GCD, and I was concerned about mana efficiency. It did work reasonably well in a mobility fight (Nethermancer Sepethrea), but is that where its utility ends, or am I missing something fundamental?

If the only reason to take it is in mobility fights (where honestly, I felt LHW served me better), should the point be spent elsewhere?

(Incidentally, go easy on my gear. My girlfriend, our primary healer, is out of town, and the spellpower change seemed a perfect opportunity to switch from elemental to resto. Aside from some gemming issues, it actually seemed to work out quite well.)

 

Daidalos

Yeah I've had similar ideas when I saw that. Since we have more opportunity to abuse the mechanics (totem twisting again) I have suggested remove the GCD from totems but have a 1-2s cooldown for each totem type. E.g. 1s cooldown on water totems after a water totem is dropped. THis would allow you to macro and drop 4 pve totems without loosing dps or allow a pvp set to be dropped all at once etc.

Restoration Shaman calculations:http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?k...IWv3sPmcYnEJUg

 

sovelis41

We had 2 replenishment bots in our raid last night, and the only times I was approaching OOM was when the fights were ending and I totally disregarded my mana bar (no consumable use at all, maybe 1 or 2 mad alch potion but it was for HP reasons, not mana). The only haste I was running was from gear and regemmed a mixture of sp/int, mp5/int, and pure int gems. For twins I even put on my trusty old [Battlemaster's Alacrity] and did just fine until our server turned off.

My build consisted of a lot of the enhance utility for resto (shields, elemental weapons), and I felt like I was getting enough mana regen without changing my healing style at all. I was really afraid that I would be up against mana issues constantly, but it wasn't case. Maybe if this was the old fights and the same mechanics I'd be singing a different tune, but we won't know for sure until Naxx25 it seems. Tonight I'm thinking of trying out Riptide and AA just to see if it makes any difference when losing the extras from the enhance tree.

Edit: Just to add to this, I wasn't hearing any complaints about mana from my priests, pallys, or druids and they tend to whine quite a bit at times.

You pay for the whole chair, but you only need the edge.

 

Durnitol

Some other math to consider since I was burning through mana in HMGT thanks to no CC and no replenishment...

Since replenishment is .25% max mana per second, with a 10000 mana pool, Replenishment is equivalent to 125mp5 (at 100% uptime). Every 80 mana, around 4.4 INT on gear (with Kings and AK), is worth 1 mp5 in Replenishment.

10080 = 126 mp5
10160 = 127 mp5
etc.

.0025 * 5sec * 18mana / 1 INT = .225 MP5 per INT

Why is Captain Obvious being obvious here? Because this means that I think we should lug around MP5 gear equivalent to what MP5 we would lose by not having replenishment as an option. It may be that the fight demands it because those in your party/raid who can provide who can proc Replenishment can't use their respective abilities, or perhaps you simply have no one in the party with the right class/spec.

What constitutes replacement gear? This is personal preference really but it comes down to stat weights. SP is generally considered better than INT by a decent margin, so all the straight INT gear you have (based on recommendations in this thread) should have a suitable pure MP5 replacement. Keep in mind, however, that Mana Tide still provides a serious amount of return based on int.


The basic formula for mana returns on INT is below. I have used R5I(n) to represent Replenishment MP5 per INT, MTI to represent the mana return of Mana Tide per INT, and M5I(n) to represent the total mana each INT represents at n 5-sec ticks.

Note that MTI here is static, whereas R5I scales with time. This means that if you know what the average duration of the fight will be, you can maximize your mana. If you don't have Replenishment, it's way easier...

M5I = 22.3 (raw), 23 (glyphed)

So if you are swapping your current gear of +16 int, you are losing about 360 mana over any duration fight. If the fight is expected to last 3 minutes.. then you need enough MP5 to cover the difference, or 10 MP5. Keep in mind that you are already down several thousand mana because you don't have Replenishment, and you'll likely need 100 extra MP5 or more to maintain the same pace as with it. Flask and get well fed appropriately.

Based on all this, I'd say there is a very real problem with our mana outside of a 25-man raid. I think a step toward fixing it would be to change Mana Spring to be similar to Replenishment. Make it a single rank, no stacking, party only, .4% max mana every 2 seconds. Talents remain identical. Yes, it's a buff, and a large one, but I really don't think its current implementation is in line with the direction Blizz seems to be going into WotLK.

The static 85mp5 that level 80 Mana spring gives is almost 1/3 of what replenishment offers in mana returns at 20k mana pools. I'm not making a side by side comparison here, I'm talking encounter balance. If replenishment is required to be successful at an encounter as a Resto shaman, then any groups under 25 may be in jeopardy.

 

McBeefy

Hi all, just wanted to throw a couple of ideas out there that I was kicking around and was able to test last night in 3.0 with some very nice results.

First of all, I am an elemental first, resto 2nd type raider until 3.0 came along anyways, but I had enough gear to piece together a high crit 2piece tier 6 elemental + 4 piece resto tier 6 outfit. It isnt optimized quite yet, but I am getting there.

using that with the following build
WorldofWarcraft.com -> Info -> Classes -> Shaman -> Talent Calculator

I was off the healing charts all night in sunwell. Notes on the build you need healing grace, huge crits at the start of the fight would put me high on the aggro charts but I rarely pulled aggro, with the amount of crit I had to avoid improved water shield talent, to avoid the constant GCD from keeping it up, instead I took the watershield mp5 glyph.

I was also seeing what I think was a bug I would riptide a target and then chain heal and get 16k, 10k, 6k on the bounces. I wish WWS parses worked because I really want to see what happend there, it only happend a couple times but I was pushing out 9-10k Hps for some trash pulls when someone bloodlusted.

putting down 4 totems and getting the elemental 2 piece is just too nice and I highly reccommend it.

 

• Caladiera

Hi pudds,

I love Riptide, I used it all over the place in sunwell. I'm not sure I'd make a rotation with it. There are times when 1.5sec cast won't save a tank, but an instant 1500K will allow some breathing room. Additionally, it adds another opportunity to apply an Earthliving HoT to the target.

Hi McBeefy,

2pc elemental is amazing. I dropped healing grace. With blood lust, drums, tidal waves, 35% base crit, totem of wrath and boomkin I couldn't pull aggro off of our Protadin. He was number 3 on dmg though so mileage may vary.