Given that you don't really know what kind of encounters you will face in the expansion (besides Naxx, which I will not really consider as a hard raid), I think you're a bit fast with your conclusion and recommendation here.
It will pretty much depend on the kind of encounters that we will face at 80. And who on earth would now spend gold on regemming their entire gear? I just think it's bad advice.
Gold? Like badges cost anything really :P
And yeah, we don't know yet what will the fights be like in the end. BUT as it is now, if the fights aren't so heavy on AoE healing like Eredar Twins; if they are more like KJ, Felmyst etc. Druids and Priests are doing a far better job with aoe healing, shaman can throw in a chain heal or two, but should focus more on single targeting. That's just the way it is, things change - adapt to it.
To all of you who still spam CH: Respec, Regem and l2p your newly tuned class.
Last night chain heal was about 75% of my healing, the rest was mostly composed of LHW, ES and EL. I'm waiting on Riptide until 3.03 hits. Before 3.0 chain was often 95%, with the remainder ES. (A notable exception is Illidan; during the warrior tanking phases I went with HW / stopcasting.) I've changed, but chain heal is still a powerful spell especially with some of our boss strategies.
That said, even using chain more than you do I chose to regem for more int, and switch out haste gear to some of my banked gear. This isn't an us-vs-them argument between single target and aoe shaman, we all value int more with replenishment and other factors. Pitbuller & Durnitol provided us with the math a few pages back. Of course even understanding the new rules, with wotlk only 2 weeks away now and with boss encounters nerfed, some may choose not to change their gear for level 70 content.
And yeah, we don't know yet what will the fights be like in the end. BUT as it is now, if the fights aren't so heavy on AoE healing like Eredar Twins; if they are more like KJ, Felmyst etc. Druids and Priests are doing a far better job with aoe healing, shaman can throw in a chain heal or two, but should focus more on single targeting. That's just the way it is, things change - adapt to it.
And it's also completly against the last blue posts
"If any class is the "fill in the gap" healer, it's the Holy priest. Their strength is in versatility -- they have single-target heals, group heals, instant heals and hots. The standard (but by no means only) way to heal a raid is to have a Holy paladin on the tank along with a Resto druid, have a Resto shammy AE heal the group, and then put the Holy priest wherever you need them. We are also trying to get the Disc priest into a role similar to the paladin, but based more around damage avoidance than efficient, quick heals."
I know that druids and priests are doing a better raid-healing job than us atm but pala/priest are also doing a much better mono-healing than us.
I don't tell you that you're wrong (atm you're pretty correct, we're not as good as we were in raid healing and priest/druids outmach us (even more in lvl 80 raids)) but I don't think that monohealing is our place and that blizz want us on Tanks instead of raid. (ie you put 2 chams on your MT, only 1 can benefit from the glyphed lhw bonus)
I've regemmed my gear with full intellect, got like 800 UB int, 14.7k mana pool or something liek that. Raidbuffed my manapool is 19+k. UB spellcrit around 32%. LHW and water mastery glyphs. Specced 0/10/51 (all crit, intellect etc talents included) and I use LHW and riptide for 90% of the time (using chain heal is very very situational). I never get below 10k mana in SWP and on KJ for example my effective healing output was 2 times more than our other shamans
There is no doubt at this point int offers the "best bang for the buck", however as you say you never drop below 10k mana on KJ would not at some point the gains from gemming int offer better throughput by gemming spell power, crit, and or haste? Once it is clear that oom will never be achieved and additional mp5 being useless, why add further int?
Given: 12 spell power = 10 crit rating = 10 int
Given: Kings and Ak 10 int = 12.1 int
Also since 1 int = 0.6mp5 +0.33 crit +0.18 spell power, if mp5=0 at infinite mana
one int becomes 0.33 crit and 0.18 spell power, so 20 int yields ~8 crit and 4.4 spell power.
At this point gemming for int seems ludicrous as it is a net loss in throughput. So the question becomes not should i gem for int, but at what point should i stop gemming for int?
Ohh great i have 8 Main tanks signed up again and 4 healers.
Ending a fight with 10k mana is better than ending it with 1k?
No, of course not. But you won't be seeing that happening in WotLK. For all starting healers at lvl 80, mana will be an issue; and intellect is there to help shamans with it. The statement was just meant to show that intellect scales extremely well ALREADY (and the only benefit isnt mp5 as you all know i bet).
There is no doubt at this point int offers the "best bang for the buck", however as you say you never drop below 10k mana on KJ would not at some point the gains from gemming int offer better throughput by gemming spell power, crit, and or haste? Once it is clear that oom will never be achieved and additional mp5 being useless, why add further int?
Given: 12 spell power = 10 crit rating = 10 int
Given: Kings and Ak 10 int = 12.1 int
Also since 1 int = 0.6mp5 +0.33 crit +0.18 spell power, if mp5=0 at infinite mana
one int becomes 0.33 crit and 0.18 spell power, so 20 int yields ~8 crit and 4.4 spell power.
At this point gemming for int seems ludicrous as it is a net loss in throughput. So the question becomes not should i gem for int, but at what point should i stop gemming for int?
Actually that is not an issue atm. If you want more HPS and want to get oom, switch to healing wave instead of lesser healing wave. The idea "why" to use LHW was that no more healing is needed tbh. In 3.0 Sunwell ; 3 or 4 healers can easily contribute all the HPS needed for clearing the whole place, yet guilds tend to do it with 6-8 so the optimal personal HPS is not even needed.
With base healing of 3034 to 3466 with level 80 rank I'd hardly call it a marginal benefit unless I'm missing something here. About half of the heal can easily come from base values instead of spell power.
It is marginal because the benefit doesn't even begin to kick in until the second HW. Unless encounters at 80 are wildly different to what we are used to (and WWSs from beta seem to indicate that there has not been a surge in HW casts), you will rarely see more than one stack of healing way on a target unless you are on dedicated tank healing. Situations such as Fel Rage in which a non-tank target takes continuous massive damage over an extended period of time are incredibly rare; most other burst RSTS healing is either taken care of in one Healing Wave, is too fast for healing wave to deal with effectively, or occurs on more than one target so you're better of just using chain heal.
My point isn't that Healing Way is useless, but that the situations in which it would be even slightly better than an equivalent number of points in Tidal Waves are so rare that I can't imagine taking it unless you are doing a very specific kind of encounter. If Healing Way were changed to a personal buff ala Shadow Weaving, the tables would be turned and we would be having a very different discussion, but the nature of Healing Way as it stands right now makes it incredibly situational.
this would indicate that point-per-point healing way has about 2.5 the effect of tidal waves on coefficient alone. If you have 50% of healing from spell power and 50% from base values, that would mean that point-by-point you'll get 5x the benefit from healing way insofar as you do maintain 3-stacks and stick to healing wave alone. If you are healing the tank, it does seem quite reasonable to pick healing way over TW if you can't pick both.
Healing way is, of course, mainly a tank healing tool.
Yeah, but what's our tank healing spell, Healing Wave or LHW? LWH benefits from the glyph. IWS, AH and ELW all proc on cast, and have the same effect, no matter if LWH or HW procced them. So more procs when casting LHW. Even without all the special procs, LHW+glyph is very competitive to HW on both HPS and HPM.
In reply to the discussion of to get Healing Way or not.
The decision is simple. If your guild doesn't need you to tank heal AT ALL. Do not invest points into Healing Way.
I personally believe being a good healer is being well-rounded and I will be taking 3/3 Healing Way in my 80 build. When and if the case occurs where I have to tank heal I would rather use Healing Wave with 3/3 Healing Way than LHW Glyphed /w Earth Shield. Then again it's all very situational, depends how hard the tank is being hit. LHW /w Glyph is more mana efficient, however if it's not keeping the tank alive.....probably a good idea to go ahead and use Healing Wave :P
I've regemmed my gear with full intellect, got like 800 UB int, 14.7k mana pool or something liek that. Raidbuffed my manapool is 19+k. UB spellcrit around 32%. LHW and water mastery glyphs. Specced 0/10/51 (all crit, intellect etc talents included) and I use LHW and riptide for 90% of the time (using chain heal is very very situational). I never get below 10k mana in SWP and on KJ for example my effective healing output was 2 times more than our other shamans (who spams chain heal with 350 haste). The only fight where CH > LHW is Eredar Twins, all others work better with pure lhw spam and riptide on every CD.
Shaman is an awesome MT healer now, too. LHW/riptide spam on the MT with earth shield on him; thats basically 3 HoTs, armor buff on all the time, instant heal every 6 secs and 6-8k heals every 1.5sec.
To all of you who still spam CH: Respec, Regem and l2p your newly tuned class.
How are you achieving 6-8k heals every 1.5seconds with ~1180 unbuffed sp? I have the right glyphs and can only get around 4k crits with my LHW.
Also what buffs are you using to get to 19k mana pool? I can only reach 17.2k mana with around 920 buffed int.
Will have to test this out although at a first glance i cant see this sustainable for longer fights.
Healing way is, of course, mainly a tank healing tool.
this would indicate that point-per-point healing way has about 2.5 the effect of tidal waves on coefficient alone. If you have 50% of healing from spell power and 50% from base values, that would mean that point-by-point you'll get 5x the benefit from healing way insofar as you do maintain 3-stacks and stick to healing wave alone. If you are healing the tank, it does seem quite reasonable to pick healing way over TW if you can't pick both.
Given our healing roles to date, that is really a very marginal case with two unlikely conditional statements. Other than possibly patchwerk style fights in which two or three people take 100% of the damage, when are we going to be spamming HW repeatedly on the same target? The only situation I could see would be a 10-man raid healed by two resto shaman; in every other case, the other healer has a strong bomb heal with 0 ramp-up time, as well as better tools to sustain a heavy level of mana use than we do (innervate, serendipity/IHC, grace, or divine plea/illumination/divine favor), so they are better suited to tank healing duties in all conceivable situations.
Personally, I tend to take both because of the "just in case" factor as well, but when I see people link "general purpose" resto specs with 51+ points in the tree and take Healing Way over Tidal Waves, I have to scratch my head and wonder what their guild healing roster must look like for that spec to make sense.
I could very easily have the formulas wrong again, so I'll show all my work. From a few pages back, this is the formula I am using:
Healing =( Base Heal + SpellPower * ( 1.881 * Cast Time / 3.5 + SP Mod )) * Healing Mod
Here are the numbers I am using for each spell
Shaman - Lesser Healing Wave - Base Heal 1738, Cast Time 1.5, SP Mod 0.1, Healing Mod 1.1, Base Mana 659.4, Mana Mod 0.95
Shaman - LHW+G - Base Heal 1738, Cast Time 1.5, SP Mod 0.1, Healing Mod 1.3, Base Mana 659.4, Mana Mod 0.95
Shaman - Healing Wave - Base Heal 3250, Cast Time 3, SP Mod 0.2, Healing Mod 1.1, Base Mana 1099, Mana Mod 0.95
Shaman - Healing Wave (HWx3) - Base Heal 3250, Cast Time 3, SP Mod 0.2, Healing Mod 1.28, Base Mana 1099, Mana Mod 0.95
Assuming a 33% crit rate and IWS, we'll get back 133 mana per cast on average.
HPM ranking with IWS:
1. 8.38 Healing Wave (HWx3)
2. 8.15 LHW+G
3. 7.20 Healing WAve
4. 6.90 LHW
Using the same formula as above, here are the 1.5 sec spells from all the healers.
The numbers I used, so anyone can check my work:
Paladin - Flash of Light - Base Heal 832, Cast Time 1.5, SP Mod 0.24, Healing Mod 1.2, Base Mana 307, Mana Mod 1
Priest - Flash Heal - Base Heal 2040, Cast Time 1.5, SP Mod 0.2, Healing Mod 1.1, Base Mana 695, Mana Mod 1
Priest - Flash Heal w/Glyph - Base Heal 2040, Cast Time 1.5, SP Mod 0.2, Healing Mod 1.1, Base Mana 695, Mana Mod 0.90
Druid - Nourish - Base Heal 2035, Cast Time 1.5, SP Mod 0, Healing Mod 1.16, Base Mana 683, Mana Mod 0.9
Druid - Nourish w/HoT - Base Heal 2035, Cast Time 1.5, SP Mod 0, Healing Mod 1.36, Base Mana 683, Mana Mod 0.9
Sorry in advance for changing the current discussion topic slightly to that which was discussed two weeks ago.
Originally Posted by aikiwoce
There is currently a in "bug" with Tidal Force and macros. Basically, Tidal Force is triggering an instant-cast GCD when it's cast it. This in turn is producing 2 different unexpected behaviors with macros. The first example:
/cast Nature's Swiftness
/cast Tidal Force
/cast Healing Wave
Both Nature's Swiftness and Tidal Force will cast, but it won't cast the Healing Wave. Due to the instant-cast GCD that Tidal Force activated, and Healing Wave's cast time being reduced to instant. Second example:
/cast Tidal Force
/cast Nature's Swiftness
/cast Healing Wave
This time you'll get Tidal Force up, and a cast a normal cast time Healing Wave. Nature's Swiftness will refuse to cast this time, again due to the instant-cast GCD Tidal Force triggered. This behavior is a little odd, and likely should be fixed.
Any macro that doesn't involve instant cast abilities works just fine with Tidal Force.
Aikiwoce showed in these two macros that the strange GCD nature of Tidal Force was conflicting within the macro, making it difficult to produce a macro which could pop both abilities and fire an instant Healing Wave in one ability. However, with the insertion of /stopcasting in between each line of his first example, a working macro can be achieved.
#showtooltip Tidal Force
/stopcasting
/use Tome of Diabolic Remedy
/stopcasting
/cast Nature's Swiftness
/stopcasting
/cast Tidal Force
/stopcasting
/cast Healing Wave
The above macro is working perfectly fine for me. Popping both abilities, the trinket and then firing a supercharged, instant Healing Wave.
Be warned however, as Aikiwoce proved in his second example, Tidal Force must always come last in the macro, as to avoid its weird GCD conflicting nature.
How are you achieving 6-8k heals every 1.5seconds with ~1180 unbuffed sp? I have the right glyphs and can only get around 4k crits with my LHW.
Also what buffs are you using to get to 19k mana pool? I can only reach 17.2k mana with around 920 buffed int.
Will have to test this out although at a first glance i cant see this sustainable for longer fights.
Have you got + all stats on chest? +intellect on bracers? +intellect on weapon? elixir of draenic wisdom? elixir of mastery? intellect gems?
Using the same formula as above, here are the 1.5 sec spells from all the healers. Note that Paladins have a baked in coefficient that it unknown to me. For these formulas, I am assuming it is zero. If someone can provide the real coef., I'll edit the numbers.
Paladins flash of light get full 100% of spell power. So paladins get 2.333 healing coef not 1.881. Or extra 1.24 multplier.
Nourish without a hot has only 5/6 of standard coefficient (making it the standard 1.5 sec coefficient only when a hot is actually present). Two talents worth 4% and 10% modify the healing, making it a 1.144 modifier. If you count tree of life aura, add an additional 6% for a total of ~1.21. There's also the option to pick up 10% mana cost reduction though it's likely that druids won't be picking that particular talent up.
Nourish without a hot has only 5/6 of standard coefficient (making it the standard 1.5 sec coefficient only when a hot is actually present). Two talents worth 4% and 10% modify the healing, making it a 1.144 modifier. If you count tree of life aura, add an additional 6% for a total of ~1.21. There's also the option to pick up 10% mana cost reduction though it's likely that druids won't be picking that particular talent up.
I'll take your advice on the talent selections, adding MS and dropping TS. I read elsewhere that multiple modifiers were additive, not multiplicative. So it would be 10% + 4% + 6% = 20% bonus, right? And the 5/6 coefficient, is that just for spellpower or the overall spell? So 10% + 4% + 6% -16.6%? I'm just guessing here
The above macro is working perfectly fine for me. Popping both abilities, the trinket and then firing a supercharged, instant Healing Wave.
Still not perfect. It works well once but if you hit the macro button again before the cooldown is up nothing happens. In a perfect world it would cast the Healing Wave without the talents/trinkets.
Much better than nothing though until they tell us this is how it should work or fix it
For those who dont like to click links, the notable differences from most specs I've seen is the pick up of thundering strikes (full 5/5) over healing way, or Imp. HW. Glyphed with the lesser healing wave glyph, the idea is that I would be capable of MT healing if needed, in addition to any other healing assignments.
Refer to this post for some recent testing on HPS and mana efficiency. I think that, even with the LHW glyph, HW with Healing Way would work out as the better default heal for tank healing. The glyphed HPS of LHW looks attractive, the mana efficiency less so.
Refer to this post for some recent testing on HPS and mana efficiency. I think that, even with the LHW glyph, HW with Healing Way would work out as the better default heal for tank healing. The glyphed HPS of LHW looks attractive, the mana efficiency less so.
Hmmm....is there any data showing how effective crit is in returning mana via IWS? Kayti only had 21% crit, while we look to be having substantially higher in Wrath. I know this doesn't change any of her numbers, but its one consideration.
The glyph would put LHW at 240 healing per % mana, which is 20 higher than her HW, but her numbers are discounting Healing way. Which means that glyphed LHW becomes somewhat comparable to HW. Of course, Healing way fully tilts things in favor of HW instead of LHW.
I was hoping to be able to skip Improved Healing Wave, and Healing Wave, but its doesnt look very feasible right now. I guess one way to measure the pure healing difference would be to to factor in another 5% crit for a LHW spam vs a HW w/Healing Wave spam, and then seeing how far apart the two methods are.
LHW Spam would of course be glyphed, with Earth Shield having an assumed 100% uptime.
* Without Healing Way
+ With Tidal Waves effect
^ Time extended to show required delay to obtain Tidal Waves buff[/code]
I'm not familiar with how to get Kayti's exact numbers in here, but thats the copy paste.
+5% critical strike would be .05x1.5=.075=7.5% increase to healing done by LHW.
Glyphed LHW:
(2800x1.2)/14=240healing/%mana
Glyphed with Thundering strikes:
[(2800x1.2)(1.075)]/14=258
Healing Wave w/Healing Way:
(5500x1.18)/25=259.6
Sooo....thats assuming a full stack of healing way on the tank at all times. Please correct my math if I'm wrong, and ask for clarification if I left something out. I just used Kayti's numbers up above as a convenient source for heal values.
It looks like a Thundering strikes w/Glyphed LHW build is comparable to a HW spam w/Healing way as far as mana efficiency goes. The big difference being that the HW heals are MUCH larger, but the Thundering Strikes build effects any CH or Riptides the shaman may need to toss out.
EDIT: Wow, the part I copy pasted looks horrible when posted. You could refer to the post Chumble linked for exact numbers, at least until I figure out how to get it in place correctly.
I've found IWS returns on 1% crit to equal up to 6.6mp5 for 1.5 speed cast spam. At 1.0 seconds it would be up to 13.3mp5.
(Both unglyphed/untalented)
Mostly I wanted to ask why you would be looking to skip Improved Healing Wave? The only alternative is Totemic Focus, which as far as I can tell has only dropped in value since 3.0 - is there a good number of mobile fights coming in Wrath, am I missing something, or is it just a case of min-maxing Totemic Focus' straight mp5/talent point against Improved Healing Wave's "improving a spell I don't use = 0/talent point" value?
I've found IWS returns on 1% crit to equal up to 6.6mp5 for 1.5 speed cast spam. At 1.0 seconds it would be up to 13.3mp5.
(Both unglyphed/untalented)
Mostly I wanted to ask why you would be looking to skip Improved Healing Wave? The only alternative is Totemic Focus, which as far as I can tell has only dropped in value since 3.0 - is there a good number of mobile fights coming in Wrath, am I missing something, or is it just a case of min-maxing Totemic Focus' straight mp5/talent point against Improved Healing Wave's "improving a spell I don't use = 0/talent point" value?
More the latter I'm afraid, and thats mostly due to the fact I'm not particularly familiar with totem costs. The general idea I was working from was "why buff an ability I will not be using?"
10/30/08, 8:00 AM
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