Restoration WotLK Talents and Discussion - Page 52

Titanx · 11/07/08, 1:25 PM

Originally Posted by Anaram

If you want to be rigorous you should also remove overhealing from the casting time lost to keeping up water shield. I'm also not sure how you got from 900k to 775k with 25% overhealing also.

Err... too early for me I guess, that should be 675k, will fix.

Daidalos · 11/07/08, 1:37 PM

Originally Posted by Titanx

Maybe it's just me, but I'm having trouble verifying your numbers in math and in game. In game while testing I have 1447 Spell Power. My tooltip in game says rank 7 LHW does 1055-1202 (~1.5% increase, not sure where it comes from), although wowhead shows 1039-1185, so I'll use wowhead's. So Base Heal will = (1039+1185)/2 = 1112. I don't know where you got 1738 from, maybe rank 9? I also have 3/5 into Tidal Waves in game, which would give me an extra 6% spell power to LHW, which = 1533.82 spell power as far as this calculation is concerned.

Anyway, using your formula:

Healing =( Base Heal + SpellPower * ( 1.881 * Cast Time / 3.5 + SP Mod )) * Healing Mod

for LHW+G and the values you have listed, I'm getting

Healing = (1112 + 1533.82 * (1.881 * (1.5/3.5) + .1))*1.3 = 3252.42
In game my heals are doing ~2700 on average.

Am I doing the calculation wrong or is your formula off?

That 1.5% increase comes from LHW being a lvl 66 spell. Your max rank spells gain in power with each level after learning them its just a small amount and most people don't notice.

Also tidal waves is not a .1 additional to the LHW coef. If you notice it says its a 10% increase to additional helaing power making it a 1.1 multiplier to the healing power/coef. I am in the process of adding glpyhs in my sheet still but I'm fairly sure my lhw and hw calcs are correct. I need to do some additional testing just to be sure but as you noted if you make the 10% an additional to the coef you get results thats are much too high.

Skyhoof · 11/07/08, 3:06 PM

Originally Posted by bewmheels

I've done some work on the whole T6 and how long to hold on to it for. It really pays off to keep the 2 set bonus just because its still a lot of pseudomp5 so to speak.
Assume you cast a chain heal once every 5 seconds which would be the absolute minimum cast frequency....

19% of 4396 = 835mana thus the bonus @ 80 is worth 83.5 mp5. Correct me if i've missed something.
Basically gemming every piece of T6 for INT brings it on par with Rep purples/dungeon blues however it lacks a lot in terms of spell spower, crit and stam. Obviously if you cast more than once every 5 seconds or have a good amount of haste this scales.

The way i see shaman healing atm i've put highest priorty on mp5/int wen deciding what gear to get and when to swap out my T6. T7 from 25-naxx is unreal and the amount of int/sp/haste makes it too good to not take over t6. However bracers belt and boots would be the way to go if you're aiming to keep T6 2set. Hell the ele set is also worth getting if your going to be healing on your way to 80 (limited use of all totems while questing)

I agree with your math. However, we just don't know yet how valuable 83.5 mp5 or 168 mp5 or 233 mp5 will be in raids at Level 80. And we'll have to weigh gaining that mana regeneration against the loss of stam, int, crit and spell power on the Level 80 gear.

Here's a table looking at the mana saved with various amounts of haste if you spam Chain Heal for 1 minute.

Chain Heal at Level 80 will cost 835 mana or 793 with talents. Two pieces of Tier 6 + talents reduces the cost to 709 mana (saving 84 mana per cast)

Cast Time	Mp5 Saved
2.5	168 mp5
2.4	175 mp5
2.3	182 mp5
2.2	191 mp5
2.1	200 mp5
2.0	210 mp5
1.9	221 mp5
1.8	233 mp5

Gadoh · 11/07/08, 4:04 PM

For people using LHW glyphed, do you shuffle around your ES depending on who needs healing? Or do you just pop it on a tank? ES isnt the cheapest, and I was having trouble finding an answer to this question by searching.

Daidalos · 11/07/08, 7:24 PM

Originally Posted by Totemmik

I may be interpreting this wrong, but you state that earthliving has a healing power coefficient of 0.5. I've done a couple of hours worth of testing to find a slightly different value.

I began with no healing power besides the +110 granted by Earthliving Weapon Rank 5 itself and was completely untalented.
The average over 3 earthliving hots was 132.75 per tic, which when multiplied by 4 gave 531.
The base healing of earthliving is 456. I proceeded to use this equation:

Base Healing + (+Healing Power)(x) = Total Healing Done -> Where x = Healing Power coefficient
456 + 110x = 531
110x = 75
x = 0.6818

With +225 healing power untalented, the average was 152.5 per tic, which equated to 610 healing done.
456 + 225x = 610
225x = 154
x = 0.6844

With +373 healing power untalented, the average was 177.75 per tic, which equated to 711 healing done.
456 + 373x = 711
373x = 255
x = 0.6836

With +446 healing power untalented, the average was 190.5 per tic, which equated to 762 healing done.
456 + 446x = 762
446x = 306
x = 0.6861

Average of x = (0.6818 + 0.6844 + 0.6836 + 0.6861) / 4 = 0.684

Assuming this is correct, 0.684 is the healing power coefficient of earthliving.

Now I used talents and a lot more healing power to see if the coefficient stays similar. I began with +1322 healing power and Purification (effectiveness of heals increased by 10%). The average healing done per tic was 374, which equated to 1496 healing total.
456 + 1322 x 0.684 = 1360 (where x is replaced by 0.684 as the spellpower coefficient)
1360/10 = 136 (Purification)
1360 + 136 = 1496, which is the value I got from testing.

With +1533 healing power with purification, the average was 413.5 per tic, which equated to 1654 healing done.
456 + 1533 x 0.684 = 1504
1504/10 = 150.4
1504 + 150.4 = 1654 (rounded down), which is the same value I got from testing.

Now, I'm still trying to figure out where this value actually originates from, most HoT's / DoT's coefficient should be (duration)/15 then multiplied by 1.88 if I'm not mistaken. However, for this particular case it doesn't seem to add up. Does anyone have any idea whether or not I'm following the right path?

Edit: To clarify on the coef without talents.
Its (5/11)*(12/15) for the Earth living weapon coefficient.

Sorry I meant to post it has a coef of .5(12/15) with purification after the 1.88 adjustment of course. I just reconfirmed my projections match in game. The coef makes perfect sense from a logical standpoint as well. I went back and fixed my original post just to prevent future confusion

bewmheels · 11/07/08, 8:48 PM

I think mp5 is currently undervalued. INT has an over inflated importance due to replenishment being in raid but in practical applications i just dont find myself ever being lucky enough to achieve it.
10 mans the entire game changes, obviously INT will be fantastic with a guarantee you will get replenishment but i dont consider 10 mans when i look @ what to gear for at 80.

Even if it was 168mp5 is 112 INT if we consider int = 1.5mp5 (assuming i've read previous pages correctly). To be honest with enough pieces of t7/naxx epics the 500-600 loss in stam is equivalent to wearing cloth in t4/t5 content

mek · 11/07/08, 9:52 PM

Originally Posted by bewmheels

I think mp5 is currently undervalued. INT has an over inflated importance due to replenishment being in raid but in practical applications i just dont find myself ever being lucky enough to achieve it.
10 mans the entire game changes, obviously INT will be fantastic with a guarantee you will get replenishment but i dont consider 10 mans when i look @ what to gear for at 80.

Where outside of 10mans (and pvp) are you encountering fights long enough for mp5 to pass intellect in value? Replenishment grossly inflates the value of Int, yes, but that aside Int is still a greater mana pool increase until well past the 5 minute mark of continuous combat. The math has been done upthread - your "belief" does not dismiss the math. Mp5 needs a significant reduction in its item budget cost, I believe blue has even acknowledged this during beta.

bewmheels · 11/07/08, 10:38 PM

i dont recall dismissing the math, i simply said mp5 is being undervalued
int is a fantastic stat by all means...i was simply adding perspective to skyhoofs comment that you have to look out for the loss of stats from not upgrading to naxx epics, and wen putting a value on mp5 its not as horrible a stat as its made out to be

Totemmik · 11/08/08, 1:07 AM

Originally Posted by Daidalos

Sorry I meant to post it has a coef of .5(12/15) after the 1.88 adjustment of course. I just reconfirmed my projections match in game. The coef makes perfect sense from a logical standpoint as well. I went back and fixed my original post just to prevent future confusion

Even with the coefficient as (0.5(12/15) x 1.88), that comes out as 0.752. Using that in the same equations I used yesterday is giving drastically different results to what is actually appearing in game. For example:

Base + ((Healing Power) x (Healing Power Coefficient)) = Total Healing Done + ((Total Healing Done)/10) The second part is only added to the result if the Purification talent exists.

I'll use both the coefficient I had, and the theoretical one from (0.5(12/15) x 1.88).

456 + 1533 x 0.684 = 1504 + 150.4
Total Healing Done = 1654, which matches in game results.

456 + 1533 x (0.5(12/15) x 1.88) = 1608.816 + 160.88
Total Healing Done = 1769.7

As you can see, the coefficient can't possible equate to (0.5(12/15) x 1.88) as it skews values by quite a lot.
If the duration / 15 x 1.88 has to equal 0.684:
x(12/15) x 1.88 = 0.684
x = 0.4548 (rounded to 4 DP's)

How such a value is achieved still puzzles me.

Titanx · 11/08/08, 2:15 AM

Originally Posted by Totemmik

Even with the coefficient as (0.5(12/15) x 1.88), that comes out as 0.752. Using that in the same equations I used yesterday is giving drastically different results to what is actually appearing in game. For example:

Base + ((Healing Power) x (Healing Power Coefficient)) = Total Healing Done + ((Total Healing Done)/10) The second part is only added to the result if the Purification talent exists.

I'll use both the coefficient I had, and the theoretical one from (0.5(12/15) x 1.88).

456 + 1533 x 0.684 = 1504 + 150.4
Total Healing Done = 1654, which matches in game results.

Ok, finally a formula that works for me and matches my in game results. Those other formulas listed here weren't working at all and were much higher than they should have been.

My LHW at 70 has a base of 1128.5 and calculating at 1447 spell damage (which is what I have on live) I can add in my relic which gives 79 spell pwr to LHW and then multiply that result by 1.06 (as I have 3/5 into tidal waves). This gives me a spell power of 1617.56.

So 1128.5 + 1617.56 * .684 = 2234.91 -- Glyphed LHW gives another 20% so multiply this number by 1.2 and it gives 2681.89 which is extremely close to what I'm getting on live, if not completely accurate. That number is what I'm getting for non-crits of course. You could certainly add in crit to get a completely accurate average number if needed.

Daidalos · 11/08/08, 3:07 AM

Originally Posted by Totemmik

Even with the coefficient as (0.5(12/15) x 1.88), that comes out as 0.752. Using that in the same equations I used yesterday is giving drastically different results to what is actually appearing in game. For example:

Base + ((Healing Power) x (Healing Power Coefficient)) = Total Healing Done + ((Total Healing Done)/10) The second part is only added to the result if the Purification talent exists.

I'll use both the coefficient I had, and the theoretical one from (0.5(12/15) x 1.88).

456 + 1533 x 0.684 = 1504 + 150.4
Total Healing Done = 1654, which matches in game results.

456 + 1533 x (0.5(12/15) x 1.88) = 1608.816 + 160.88
Total Healing Done = 1769.7

As you can see, the coefficient can't possible equate to (0.5(12/15) x 1.88) as it skews values by quite a lot.
If the duration / 15 x 1.88 has to equal 0.684:
x(12/15) x 1.88 = 0.684
x = 0.4548 (rounded to 4 DP's)

How such a value is achieved still puzzles me.

Because .684 * 1.1(purification) = .752

so before purification the coef is (5/11)(12/15)

Totemmik · 11/08/08, 3:43 AM

Would you mind clarifying why in your case Purification is effecting the spell power coefficient? Through all tests I've done it uses the healing power coefficient (5/11)(12/15) x 1.88 = 0.684, and then Purification just takes 10% of the total healing done and adds it onto that. No altering of the actual coefficient whatsoever?

Daidalos · 11/08/08, 5:04 AM

Originally Posted by Totemmik

Would you mind clarifying why in your case Purification is effecting the spell power coefficient? Through all tests I've done it uses the healing power coefficient (5/11)(12/15) x 1.88 = 0.684, and then Purification just takes 10% of the total healing done and adds it onto that. No altering of the actual coefficient whatsoever?

Because 1.1(x+y) is the same as 1.1x+1.1y. If you have further questions just PM me I can go over how I arrived at my calcs in more depth if you wish.

valalover · 11/08/08, 12:42 PM

The spreadsheet is really nice. I appreciate the effort this takes. I am fortunate enough to have a good mix of T6 gear both resto and elemental so I can run with both bonuses.

I was wondering how to factor in the 2/T6 elemental bonus into the sheet. Any help is appreciated!

Daidalos · 11/08/08, 2:02 PM

Originally Posted by valalover

The spreadsheet is really nice. I appreciate the effort this takes. I am fortunate enough to have a good mix of T6 gear both resto and elemental so I can run with both bonuses.

I was wondering how to factor in the 2/T6 elemental bonus into the sheet. Any help is appreciated!

Well since the 2pc ele bonus is purely extra stats you can just enter your stat info while you have 4 totems down.

bewmheels · 11/09/08, 6:39 PM

I'm unsure if this has been posted in the previous pages, dont think ive seen it posted yet.
I did some testing last nite to try and work out what Imp WS was worth in terms of mp5. Heres wat i came up with:
I had my crit rating at 24% and cast LHW 400 times. Out of those 400 casts i crit 125 of them for a total of 25375 mana returned.

Assuming you spammed LHW constantly of course it came to 8mp5 per 1% crit. Also in all calculations i did i rounded down.
This may be trivial information but im looking at staying a single target healer come wrath and evaluating the value of crit is a big part of it.

If someone could check the math it'd be greatly appreciated. I'm going to apply the same thing to Healing wave and don't want to go any further unless im correct.

EDIT: Note talents 5/5 Thundering Strikes, 5/5 Tidal Mastery, 2/2 Blessing of Eternals

TheSilverHand · 11/09/08, 9:08 PM

With the expansion releasing in only four days, it may be prudent to note that the 8 mp5 per 1% crit you calculated will double to 16 mp5 when we get the Water Shield Rank 9 at level 76, which restores 400 mana.

Mushin · 11/10/08, 4:23 AM

Originally Posted by bewmheels

Assuming you spammed LHW constantly of course it came to 8mp5 per 1% crit. Also in all calculations i did i rounded down.

Checking the math, 24% of 400 is 96, so your sample crit rate is actually inflated beyond your paperdoll stats. 125*200 is 25000 straight, so you've 'leaked' some other variable in there to get another 375 mana. I also can't figure out how you get 8mp5 from those figures,

Did you account for the number of seconds lost refreshing Water Shield?

Kaytikat · 11/10/08, 8:44 AM

Originally Posted by Mushin

Checking the math, 24% of 400 is 96, so your sample crit rate is actually inflated beyond your paperdoll stats. 125*200 is 25000 straight, so you've 'leaked' some other variable in there to get another 375 mana. I also can't figure out how you get 8mp5 from those figures,

Did you account for the number of seconds lost refreshing Water Shield?

25375 / 125 = 203 = Exactly the amount of mana returned by a single charge of water shield.

MP5 / Crit comes from the following:

400 casts at 1.5 secs = 600 secs
32 refreshes of Water Shield (assuming Minor Glyph to give 4 charges) at 1.5 secs = 48 secs
Total Time = 648 secs

Total Mana Returned = 25375

Total MP5 from Imp WS = 195.8 mp5

Therefore 8.2 mp5 per % crit

However, as you pointed out, the actual crit was 31.25%, so the value should be 6.3mp5 / % crit

More pertinantly, however, 177480 mana was used casting those spells, coming to 1369.4mp5 mana out! I don't see Resto Shaman being FoL bots any time soon

EDIT: Actually doing the numbers helps!

MP5 contributions:

Gear - 150
Flask - 25
Food - 8
Mana Spring - 62.5
Mana Tide - 58
Water Shield - 50
Blessing of Wisdom - 49.2
Replenishment (14500 mana = 36.25/tick) - 181.25
Improved Water Shield - 195.8
Total - 778.95mp5
Deficit - 590mp5 which gives a Time to OOM of roughly 2mins

EDIT2: Improved Shields talent increases the MP5 return from Improved Water Shield from 195.8mp5 to 225mp5 and trinkets such as Memento of Tyrande and the Insightful Earthstorm Diamond meta will further reduce the deficit, down to a mere 500mp5 (2:25 TTO)

• Philondra · 11/10/08, 9:09 AM

Originally Posted by Daidalos

After running an instance and observing tidal force each crit on a chain heal does consume a charge. So kinda worthless for chain heals.

This is a quote from Daidalos way back on page 17, and I would like to inquire if anyone had attempted to test exactly how Tidal Force and Chain Heal interact. We know that each Chain Heal crit ends up with one of the charges being removed, but are the charges removed after each jump, or only when the spell is complete? The reason I pose this question is because the most similar talent in-game is Combustion, which will always apply its crit chance increase to all AOE targets.

Here's what we know:
1.) Chain Heal jumps occur simultaneously.
2.) A number of Tidal Force charges equal to the number of Chain Heal crits are removed.

Given 1 and 2 above, A.) does the game calculate the crit rate for all jumps based on the number of Tidal Force charges when the spell was cast or B.) are tidal force charges internally consumed after each jump, meaning that a crit on jump 1 lowers the crit chance for jumps 2 and 3? In case my wording is confusing, here's an example:

I use Tidal Force and cast Chain Heal, which crits on all three jumps:

Scenario A.) (Removing charges at the end)
Jump 1: +60% chance to crit --> Crit! (3 charges left)
Jump 2: +60% chance to crit --> Crit! (3 charges left)
Jump 3: +60% chance to crit --> Crit! (3 charges left)
Chain Heal finished; three charges of Tidal Force are now removed.

Scenario B.) (Removing a charge after each crit)
Jump 1: +60% chance to crit --> Crit! (2 charges left)
Jump 2: +40% chance to crit --> Crit! (1 charge left)
Jump 3: +20% chance to crit --> Crit! (0 charges left)

Given my own examination of the combat log, Scenario A seems to be the only logical case, but I cannot come up with a good way to test this in a controlled environment. I have only one account and cannot find anyone to sit with me in Shattrah and take falling damage every 3 minutes so that I can get multiple CH jumps. If Tidal Force acts like Combustion, I would be much more likely to use the final Tidal Force charge on CH -- but is it enough of an edge case that it's not worth worrying about?

hvidgaard · 11/10/08, 10:58 AM

Originally Posted by Philondra

Given my own examination of the combat log, Scenario A seems to be the only logical case, but I cannot come up with a good way to test this in a controlled environment. I have only one account and cannot find anyone to sit with me in Shattrah and take falling damage every 3 minutes so that I can get multiple CH jumps. If Tidal Force acts like Combustion, I would be much more likely to use the final Tidal Force charge on CH -- but is it enough of an edge case that it's not worth worrying about?

It is always worth worrying about how our class works

You could do 2 different things,

1. Everytime you can use TF+CH you do so and hope it hits 3 different targets. You extract this from the combat log after every use and by time you'll have enough data to reach a conclution.

2. Find 2 friends with time on their hands. Make them (and yourself) have a health deficiency (Lifetap, Bloodrage, remove and reequip stamina gear ect) and try it out on them (this is very time consuming, as just 10 samples will take you 30min, and you would need some 15+ samples to have an resonable accuracy)

In both cases, if A is true you should see the same crit rates on all hits, if B then you would see a big difference in the crit rates on the hits.

/edit Actually, find 2 other resto shamans, that will only take 1/3 of the time

meaning you can, within a reasonable timeframe, test it out a CH with 3 TF charges and 1 TF charge. In fact, if you start out with testing with 1 TF charge and the crit rate are the same on all hits, then there is no reason to try with 3 charges.

Ribs · 11/10/08, 11:31 AM

Interesting thought Philondra. It would certainly be worth the info to know if the final charge would act as 3x 20% crit on a Chain Heal. I know the testdummies in Org can be used for Chain Lightning bounces, perhaps worth a try for this experiment? Not sure how the combat log reacts to this though, just throwing the idea out there.

Edit: Second after I posted this I started to wonder if you can actually heal them, never tried before. If this isn't the case, disregard the comment

hvidgaard · 11/10/08, 11:42 AM

Originally Posted by Ribs

Edit: Second after I posted this I started to wonder if you can actually heal them, never tried before. If this isn't the case, disregard the comment

I don't think you can. And even if you could, CH only jumps to a nearby target if it needs healing. The dummies have 1/1 hp all the time, and hence it wouldn't jump. But I could be wrong

Jessamy · 11/10/08, 1:27 PM

In order to avoid fire bloom damage on Kil'Jaeden, raid members are spread far enough that chain heal doesn't jump. Thus, except for when gathering for dragon shields, my healing consists of LHW and riptide (and procs). After dps spec for a couple of non raid days farming dailies, and knowing the KJ environment, I tried speccing into improved water shield. It seemed a perfect situation to showcase the talent. I hated it. I hated it so much that during our 5-minute break I recalled to Shatt & popped to Exodar to respec.

When all my casts have a chance to proc a water orb, they get used up quickly. This is a net regen gain, but when I have no active orbs I have 2 choices -- refresh the shield, or sacrifice some mp5 to top off a target. This continual decision moves focus away from key raid awareness such as moving out of aoe and choosing heal targets.

Further, after speccing out of IWS I found I didn't even need it. People have done the math to show that pure spam healing is not sustainable for extended time. However, even in a long fight with a lot of healing, there are times when my part of the room doesn't require healing and I can get some passive regen. (And the dragon breath helps.)

I think ultimately this is another choice similar to the vitality / boar's speed boot enchant choice. More mp5 vs. mobility/awareness. It's not wrong to choose it, but I won't be taking this talent at level 70.

-Abakus- · 11/10/08, 3:10 PM

what do you guys think about making Imp. Water Shield proc off of CH instead of riptide (in addition to L/HW), and then making riptide refresh water shield? it is a watery kind of spell anyways, and then we wouldn't have to spend a GCD refreshing it. it would also promote spell diversity by hasting L/HW, while still allowing us to use CH with Imp. water shield's mana return.