EnhSim, DPS simulator - Page 104

Ryethe · 09/28/09, 8:05 PM

Originally Posted by Akiros

Well, I see a difference of about 20 dps in favor of FS for me. So your results might not be valid for others.

It seems that the main issue here is 4pc T9. If I remove 4pc t9 and replace it with 2pc t9 and repeat the test then I see the sim coming out in favour of an ES-FS rotation.

Now observe the difference in FS damage between 4pc t9 being absent and 4pc t9 being added:

2pc T9:

                    DPS                 PPM       MPS
earth shock         464.13    6.11%     6.28      40.60     18.70%
flame shock         237.69    3.13%     2.98      18.20     8.38%

4pc t9

                    DPS                 PPM       MPS
earth shock         580.17    7.5%      6.28      40.60     18.70%
flame shock         261.68    3.38%     2.98      18.20     8.38%

When I scroll up and look at the FS damage attributed to dots it's the same in both configs even though the one with 4pcT9 should be 25% higher.

I've logged this in the bug tracker.

Reztester · 09/28/09, 8:08 PM

### Saved by v1.8.3.3a of EnhSimGUI

simulation_time                 8000
simulation_time_combatlog       30
combat_length                   5
report_count                    80
threads                         2
min_lag                         0
max_lag                         0
simulate_mana                   0

ep_precision                    2
ep_base_stat                    ap
ep_ap                           200
ep_crit_rating                  30
ep_hit_rating                   30
ep_expertise                    4
ep_haste_rating                 30
ep_armor_penetration_rating     30
ep_spellpower                   150
ep_dps                          7.5
ep_mana                         250
ep_spirit                       150
ep_mp5                          20

mh_auto_attack                  1
oh_auto_attack                  1
wait_ss_with_wf_cd              0.00
cast_ll_only_if_wf_on_cd        0
bloodlust_casters               1
sync_bloodlust_with_trinkets    1
cast_lvb_only_if_ed_left        15.0
cast_lvb_only_if_fsdots_left    4
cast_lvb_only_if_fs_active      1
cast_fs_only_if_dots_left       0
cast_ls_only_if_charges_left    0
cast_sr_only_if_mana_left       750
use_mana_potion_if_mana_left    2000

rotation_priority_count         8
rotation_priority1              SW
rotation_priority2              MW5_LB
rotation_priority3              ES_SS
rotation_priority4              SS
rotation_priority5              MT
rotation_priority6              LS
rotation_priority7              LL
rotation_priority8              ES

miss                            9.0
dodge                           6.5
glancing                        25.0
armor                           13083
spell_miss                      17.0
nature_resistance               0
fire_resistance                 0
frost_resistance                0
arcane_resistance               0
shadow_resistance               0

armor_debuff_major              3925/3925
armor_debuff_minor              0/1260
physical_vulnerability_debuff   0/2.0
melee_haste_buff                20.0/20.0
melee_crit_chance_buff          5.0/5.0
attack_power_buff_flat          688/688
attack_power_buff_multiplier    99.7/99.7
spell_haste_buff                5.0/5.0
spell_crit_chance_buff          5.0/5.0
spell_crit_chance_debuff        0/10.0
spell_damage_debuff             10.0/10.0
spellpower_buff                 280/280
spell_hit_chance_debuff         3.0/3.0
haste_buff                      3.0/3.0
percentage_damage_increase      0/3.0
crit_chance_debuff              3.0/3.0
stat_multiplier                 10.0/10.0
stat_add_buff                   52/52
agi_and_strength_buff           178/178
intellect_buff                  60/60

replenishment                   0
water_shield                    0
mana_spring_totem               0
blessing_of_wisdom              0
judgement_of_wisdom             0

flask_elixir                    flask_of_endless_rage
guardian_elixir                 -
potion                          -
food                            fish_feast

###############################################################################
### Everything in the section below can be replaced by information obtained ###
### from your paper doll stats or exported by the ShockAndAwe addon         ###
###############################################################################

race                            troll
mh_speed                        2.6
oh_speed                        2.6
mh_dps                          178.9
oh_dps                          178.9
mh_crit                         35.47
oh_crit                         35.47
mh_hit                          11.13
oh_hit                          11.13
mh_expertise_rating             136
oh_expertise_rating             136
ap                              4034
melee_haste                     22.96
armor_penetration               0
str                             141
agi                             956
int                             455
spi                             164
spellpower                      1210
spell_crit                      26.01
spell_hit                       14.91
spell_haste                     22.96
max_mana                        11736
mp5                             58

mh_imbue                        windfury
oh_imbue                        flametongue

mh_enchant                      berserking
oh_enchant                      berserking

mh_weapon                       -
oh_weapon                       -

trinket1                        mirror_of_truth
trinket2                        pyrite_infuser

totem                           totem_of_dueling

set_bonus1                      worldbreaker_battlegear_4
set_bonus2                      -
set_bonus3                      -

metagem                         -

gloves_enchant                  -
cloak_enchant                   -

glyph_major1                    feral_spirit
glyph_major2                    stormstrike
glyph_major3                    windfury_weapon

glyph_minor1                    -
glyph_minor2                    -
glyph_minor3                    -

ancestral_knowledge             5/5
improved_shields                0/3
mental_dexterity                3/3
shamanistic_focus               1/1
flurry                          5/5
elemental_weapons               3/3
unleashed_rage                  3/3
weapon_mastery                  3/3
dual_wield_specialization       3/3
mental_quickness                3/3
improved_stormstrike            2/2
static_shock                    3/3
maelstrom_weapon                5/5

convection                      0/5
concussion                      5/5
call_of_flame                   0/3
elemental_devastation           3/3
reverberation                   0/5
elemental_focus                 1/1
elemental_fury                  0/5
call_of_thunder                 0/1
unrelenting_storm               0/3
elemental_precision             0/3
lightning_mastery               0/5
elemental_oath                  0/2
lightning_overload              0/5
lava_flows                      0/3
storm_earth_and_fire            0/3
shamanism                       0/5

sorry for the hassle this is the entire config file i am using to calculate the EPs i was getting in my previous email.

Rouncer · 09/28/09, 8:44 PM

Originally Posted by Reztester


armor                           13083


armor_debuff_major              3925/3925
armor_debuff_minor              0/1260

sorry for the hassle this is the entire config file i am using to calculate the EPs i was getting in my previous email.

You are using an old config with some errors. Boss armor isn't that high anymore but the big one is that Sunder is a percentage armor reduction now so you have it removing 3925% of the bosses armor which is most likely why your results are screwed up.

Bigbare · 09/28/09, 8:52 PM

Originally Posted by Reztester

sorry for the hassle this is the entire config file i am using to calculate the EPs i was getting in my previous email.

Also make sure you fill in talents properly. In this config file you don't have any points in elemental fury, which will drastically skew your ep values for crit as well as current dps simulation.

Ryethe · 09/28/09, 9:41 PM

Originally Posted by Brynmor

It does, but I don't think you understand exactly how you should've ran your test. I tried to explain it a little on my first response but I guess I wasn't as clear as I could've been. This time I'll just resort to math.

I ran EnhSim with my character's stats, full buffs, rotation as set in the BiS thread. No FS, FS glyph, no removal of WF glyph. I get 8143 DPS.

Next test I remove the WF glyph and change nothing else. I get 8058 DPS. From this we can say that the WF glyph is worth 85 DPS in my circumstance.

Then I ran it adding FS to my rotation (below SS on priority) and replacing the WF glyph with the FS glyph to simulate how FS behaves live. I got 8060 DPS. Now, to get to where we'd be live I now have to add back in the DPS from WF glyph, which would bring me to 8145 DPS. So as far as my own stats go incorporating FS into my rotation does yield a small DPS increase.

First off I could care less how much of a DPS increase the WF glyph is or even the new FS glyph is for that matter. My real intention was not to compare glyphs. Instead I wanted to show that an ES-FS rotation was coming out as a DPS downgrade when all previous data was suggesting an upgrade (this is with 3.2.2 duration and without the glyph). Whether the WF glyph is in or out only has bearing on WF damage and nothing else. With this goal in mind, I can't seem to see any issue with my test. I probably shouldn't have mentioned the glyph at all as it diluted and confused my point. Cavet: As mentioned above, there appears to be a bug in the sim so my test was invalidated for different reasons.

As for your test scenario, I'd suggest you go check how many FS were cast with that sort of setup. To get FS cast values above anything trivial I had to move FS above ES_SS. Reason being that there were almost always extra SS charges and ES_SS was forcing FS to be on CD when it was arrived at in the priority list.

Sylvand · 09/29/09, 4:26 AM

I may just be having a brain fart, but Lava Lash is already on a 6 second cooldown. Is there any value to adding something like LL_QE at this time?

SentinelBorg · 09/29/09, 6:52 AM

Originally Posted by Sylvand

I may just be having a brain fart, but Lava Lash is already on a 6 second cooldown. Is there any value to adding something like LL_QE at this time?

Well, while Lava Lash is on a 6 second cooldown, it is also usually our lowest priority ability. So sometimes, especially with Bloodlust up, we actually may not use it over a longer period of time, because there is always something better available. That why the idea of a LL_QE came up, to increase the priority of LL when the QE buff isn't up.

rastotem · 09/29/09, 8:26 AM

I was thinking the exact same thing sentinelborg, that now that LL has such a good buff attached to it its priority must rise when the buff is not on.

Levva · 09/29/09, 10:46 AM

Originally Posted by Sylvand

I may just be having a brain fart, but Lava Lash is already on a 6 second cooldown. Is there any value to adding something like LL_QE at this time?

If you run through a typical combat log you may well see times when LL isn't used for 10-15 seconds or more. The buff giving 400 AP (and 120 SP from Mental Quickness) is good to have and could boost lots of damage. The test we wanted to be able to do is ...

Is it worth doing a lava lash early if the buff has expired?

We can test this hypothesis if we have a LL_QE priority. So if its added to the sim we can run sims with it there and sims with it not there to see if there is any worthwhile effect.

[edit] The LL_QE priority should only be active if Totem of Quaking Earth is equipped. This might seem blindingly obvious but I though I'd mention it to ensure this test is present in the sim.

Sylvand · 09/29/09, 12:50 PM

Originally Posted by Levva

If you run through a typical combat log you may well see times when LL isn't used for 10-15 seconds or more. The buff giving 400 AP (and 120 SP from Mental Quickness) is good to have and could boost lots of damage. The test we wanted to be able to do is ...

Is it worth doing a lava lash early if the buff has expired?

We can test this hypothesis if we have a LL_QE priority. So if its added to the sim we can run sims with it there and sims with it not there to see if there is any worthwhile effect.

[edit] The LL_QE priority should only be active if Totem of Quaking Earth is equipped. This might seem blindingly obvious but I though I'd mention it to ensure this test is present in the sim.

All right so rather than using LL as soon as the buff can be refreshed, its priority only gets boosted if the buff actually falls off? That should not be too difficult.

Levva · 09/29/09, 1:23 PM

Originally Posted by Sylvand

All right so rather than using LL as soon as the buff can be refreshed, its priority only gets boosted if the buff actually falls off? That should not be too difficult.

The way I implemented this in ShockAndAwe was to add the additional priority LL_QE with the test...

	function () 
		return not ShockAndAwe:GetBuffInfo(C["Volcanic Fury"]) and ShockAndAwe:SpellAvailable(C["Lava Lash"]) and ShockAndAwe:QuakingEarthEquipped()
	end

ie: if player has no Volcanic Fury buff and Lava Lash is available and QuakingEarth is equipped then activate priority.

It's probable position in the default queue is MW5_LB, LL_QE, ES_SS, SS, ES, LL, MT, LS. Testing with new sim will identify if this is a dps boost or not. FS might now appear in there somewhere too but thats a different issue.

So in this priority list LL only gets used ahead of SS, ES etc if there isn't a Volcanic Fury buff and player is using QE totem, otherwise the priority drops through to the next possible option. LL is therefore a completely different priority calc that has the simple conditional "is LL available".

Rouncer · 09/29/09, 1:27 PM

Originally Posted by Sylvand

All right so rather than using LL as soon as the buff can be refreshed, its priority only gets boosted if the buff actually falls off? That should not be too difficult.

That should work since I don't think anyone is really going to be working out the timing to properly prioritize Lava Lash exactly 9 seconds after it was last refreshed. Boosting Lava Lash to a significantly higher priority when the buff falls off though is pretty simple and would fit within existing priority systems.

Maybe a good way to handle it would be to create a few new options for the priority list that would be dependent on the buffs/debuffs associated with them. Shouldn't be too hard to implement the following and they would cover most eventualities.

SS_noSS - Stormstrike when the debuff isn't on the target

LL_noQE - Lava Lash when ToQE's buff is missing

LS_noLS - refresh Lightning Shield when the buff has fallen off completely

So then these could be placed into the priority list where the user feels they would be appropriate. Then it would be possible to determine if it is better to hit SS when the debuff is missing or to hit MW opening the Sim up to a new level of theorycrafting where the priority list would be actively modified by the buffs and debuffs.

Mogadee · 09/29/09, 2:30 PM

I have seen the occasion where SS on cd, shocks on cd, MT is down, <3 stack of MW, and LS does not need to refreshed with the QE buff at about 4 seconds left and LL not on cd. My point being, to have LL_QE only if the QE buff is off would be inaccurate. There are times when other spells are on cd and QE can be refreshed by LL while the buff is still up. So I think the LL_QE could have 2 parts to it in the sim. LL_QE if buff is off or if other spells (SS, ES, FS, etc.) are on cd and buff has less than x seconds remaining.

Ryethe · 09/29/09, 2:51 PM

Originally Posted by Mogadee

I have seen the occasion where SS on cd, shocks on cd, MT is down, <3 stack of MW, and LS does not need to refreshed with the QE buff at about 4 seconds left and LL not on cd. My point being, to have LL_QE only if the QE buff is off would be inaccurate. There are times when other spells are on cd and QE can be refreshed by LL while the buff is still up. So I think the LL_QE could have 2 parts to it in the sim. LL_QE if buff is off or if other spells (SS, ES, FS, etc.) are on cd and buff has less than x seconds remaining.

Seeing as you just listed everything that is traditionally above LL, the sim would just hit LL anyway, regardless of buff status.

Lokin · 09/29/09, 3:35 PM

Hi everyone.
I have been using the Sim for over a year now and appreciate the work you did there. Lately though I do have a little trouble understanding ep values provided by the sim. Let me explain: the hasterating values (yes i know) i recieve are really messed up. I usually run several sims (100k h) and then take the median for my haste rating. Yet its pretty inconvenient to do so when the values range from 0.02-3.7. So I did some "research" and want to ask you for validation.
First off right now i have ~22% haste and its my favourite stat. I comapre it to hit because after the softhitcap hit scales pretty much linear and predictable up until the hardhitcap.
One note regarding the numbers I used below. Those are not supposed to be EP-Values.

Autoattack: Haste:1,27 Hit:1
In a time Intervall t 1% Hit converts an existing 1% miss into a 1% hit by pushing misses off the attack table which thus can neither crit, nor glance. 1% Haste, on the other hand, adds 1% atacks to t which can hit, crit, miss or glance(this is the part which I am not sure about). So in general we can expect 1% haste being worth 2.06*critrate(raidbuffed ~50%)+0.24*0.7(glancingblow rate * glancing blow dmg)+(1-missrate)*1(regular hit) resulting in 2.06*0.5+0.24*0.7+(1-0.93)*1 = 1.27

Windfury Haste:1 Hit:1
1% extra hits adds 1% possibilities für WF-Procs but due to the 3sec WF CD both stats just push the procs closer together yet they affect the damage of Windfury even when only a little

Flametongue Haste:1 Hit:1
No clear winner here 1% hits result in 1% extra FT-proccs, thus 1% extra damage.

Lightn.Bolt Haste:1 Hit:1
No clear winner here either. 1% extra hits result in 1% extra mw stacks

Shocks Haste:0 Hit:>0
While haste has absolutely no effect on shock damage, hit still can come in handy in those situations where the Spriest/Moonkin dies, is absent or attacks another target (Faction Champions, Northrend Beasts, Twins)

Lightn.Shield Haste:1 Hit:1 Similar situation to Lightning Bolt. More hits result in more procs.

Feral Spirit Haste:1 Hit:1 Similar situation to Autoattack. More hits result in more damage.

Totems Haste:0 Hit:0 No scaling

Stormstrike Haste:0 Hit:0 No scaling

Considering the possibility(which I am not sure about) of additional hits provided by haste, to ~50% crit and the resulting additional procs like Elemental devastation, Flurry, Unleashed Rage, haste should constantly (meaning even in the rare situations where additional haste results in less Windfury procs) be valued more than hit.

So writing that down can anyone tell me where my theory has a flaw? Since with Hit beeing at 1.7 and Haste at 0.02 after 2 100k sims it would mean that I can keep my Haste EP-Value at ~1.9-2.0.

PS: I am sorry for interrupting the FS,LL_QE etc discussion but I dont have anything to contribute to that section and, as far as from the many enhance theory threads i have read, haste rating still seems to cause trouble.

Rouncer · 09/29/09, 4:30 PM

If you are getting haste EP values with a range of 0.02 up to 3.4 then you are doing something wrong. You should probably focus more on figuring that out then figuring out how haste's value relates to hit's value. That has never been a topic of interest to anyone anyway, as far as I can tell, with the debate about haste being centered around it's relative value to AP not to Hit.

Ciege · 09/29/09, 8:23 PM

Heres the big thing about comparing the LL glyph with the WF glyph. WF glyph WILL NOT scale in the same manner as LL will. Will it scale? Yes of course, everything pretty much scales outside of buffs. The difference is how the glyphs work.

Glyph of Windfury increases the chance for your windfury weapon to proc by 2%, excluding internal cool down. Thus WF is going to scale directly off your melee crit chance with a SLIGHTLY increased chance to proc.

Glyph of Flame Strike gives your flame shock ticks a chance to crit. This is going to scale based off your spell crit chance.

In essence, if your melee crit is decent, 40% raid buffed, but your spell crit is low, 20%. More than likely you will see better numbers from the WF glyph. While if your spell crit chance is moderately higher raid buffed, 35% then you could see better numbers from FS.

BY NO MEANS AM I SAYING USE FS GLYPH OVER WF (or vice versa)! I'm just stating what is giving such varied numbers from shaman 1's gear as compared to shaman 2's gear. Basically there will be no clear winner unless your spell crit exceeds X% to give it more DPS than the WF glyph. No number crunching involed, just basic logic.

I felt i had to state this on the basis of shamans disagreeing, before you compare numbers, compare gear. As always as well, be sure to take into your full raid buffs, they potentially can make a huge difference.

PS: FS coefficient might need updating, 6 ticks now instead of 4.

Rouncer · 09/29/09, 9:35 PM

Originally Posted by Ciege

Heres the big thing about comparing the LL glyph with the WF glyph. WF glyph WILL NOT scale in the same manner as LL will. Will it scale? Yes of course, everything pretty much scales outside of buffs. The difference is how the glyphs work.

Glyph of Windfury increases the chance for your windfury weapon to proc by 2%, excluding internal cool down. Thus WF is going to scale directly off your melee crit chance with a SLIGHTLY increased chance to proc.

Glyph of Flame Strike gives your flame shock ticks a chance to crit. This is going to scale based off your spell crit chance.

In essence, if your melee crit is decent, 40% raid buffed, but your spell crit is low, 20%. More than likely you will see better numbers from the WF glyph. While if your spell crit chance is moderately higher raid buffed, 35% then you could see better numbers from FS.

BY NO MEANS AM I SAYING USE FS GLYPH OVER WF (or vice versa)! I'm just stating what is giving such varied numbers from shaman 1's gear as compared to shaman 2's gear. Basically there will be no clear winner unless your spell crit exceeds X% to give it more DPS than the WF glyph. No number crunching involed, just basic logic.

I felt i had to state this on the basis of shamans disagreeing, before you compare numbers, compare gear. As always as well, be sure to take into your full raid buffs, they potentially can make a huge difference.

PS: FS coefficient might need updating, 6 ticks now instead of 4.

1. Flame Shock coefficient didn't change. All they did was add an additional 2 ticks at the same exact amount as the previous ticks, basically just incorporating the old flame shock glyph directly into the spell.

2. Windfury Glyph scales very well since we have a few other mechanics that it affects. When WF procs it is 2 additional melee attacks and we have a couple of abilities that proc off melee hits, namely static shock and maelstrom weapon.

3. Do you really think that crit is the only thing that Windfury scales off of? See point 2 and realize that more WF procs also equals more lightning bolts and also realize that Windfury scales incredibly well off of AP too.

• Cochice · 09/30/09, 4:43 AM

I know there was some talk about representing the FS changes in the current version of the sim. The logical change would be to add 2 Piece elemental t8, and add the old flame shock glyph. But the sim isn't recognizing worldbreaker_garb_2 for me. I know that t7 and t9 are both usable as naxx_nuker and t9_regalia. Is the t8 elemental set in there under a different name? Or did it just never get coded in?

I'm using 1.8.3.3a.

Unrelated side note going back to a few pages ago: Levva, the new FS dot bar is great. It is incredibly useful, thanks!

pintor · 09/30/09, 5:03 AM

Originally Posted by Cochice

I know there was some talk about representing the FS changes in the current version of the sim. The logical change would be to add 2 Piece elemental t8, and add the old flame shock glyph. But the sim isn't recognizing worldbreaker_garb_2 for me. I know that t7 and t9 are both usable as naxx_nuker and t9_regalia. Is the t8 elemental set in there under a different name? Or did it just never get coded in?

I'm using 1.8.3.3a.

Unrelated side note going back to a few pages ago: Levva, the new FS dot bar is great. It is incredibly useful, thanks!

edit: misread. It seems it is not implemented in the sim.

Lokin · 09/30/09, 5:37 AM

Originally Posted by Rouncer

If you are getting haste EP values with a range of 0.02 up to 3.4 then you are doing something wrong. You should probably focus more on figuring that out then figuring out how haste's value relates to hit's value. That has never been a topic of interest to anyone anyway, as far as I can tell, with the debate about haste being centered around it's relative value to AP not to Hit.

It seems that I failed to explain my problem properly but this was actually supposed to be the point. Until ~20% haste the sim provided me with pretty conservative EP-Values for all stats, meaning hit ~1.5, crit ~1.7, int ~1.5, haste ~1.8, ap 1.0 etc. But after 20% haste the mess began. The values were ranging from 0.1-3.5 going up to 28% haste in 0.5% steps (I actually did 2-3 100k h sims per 0.5% step). Since I did not change anything (raidbuffs, prioritylist, etc) between those simulations and considering the fact that all other stats except of haste did not change their value (well +-0.05 due to sim) I thought maybe haste ranges >20% cause problems in the sim. The choice of comparing haste to hit (in contrary to let's say crit or agi) was that, with hit beeing softcapped but not hardcapped, they work pretty similar by adding extra hits to the table. Thus they should(according to my theory of which I am not sure about) scale similar.

Rouncer · 09/30/09, 10:53 AM

Originally Posted by Lokin

It seems that I failed to explain my problem properly but this was actually supposed to be the point. Until ~20% haste the sim provided me with pretty conservative EP-Values for all stats, meaning hit ~1.5, crit ~1.7, int ~1.5, haste ~1.8, ap 1.0 etc. But after 20% haste the mess began. The values were ranging from 0.1-3.5 going up to 28% haste in 0.5% steps (I actually did 2-3 100k h sims per 0.5% step). Since I did not change anything (raidbuffs, prioritylist, etc) between those simulations and considering the fact that all other stats except of haste did not change their value (well +-0.5 due to sim) I thought maybe haste ranges >20% cause problems in the sim. The choice of comparing haste to hit (in contrary to let's say crit or agi) was that, with hit beeing softcapped but not hardcapped, they work pretty similar by adding extra hits to the table. Thus they should(according to my theory of which I am not sure about) scale similar.

So the problem is a pseudo-issue? By that I mean is it one that only occurs when you are manipulating the values of the sim or are you actually using Rawr and getting to those points through real gear?

I just created a set in Rawr that prioritizes haste above all else. ToEW, basically all haste gems, Comet's Trail, Quick Dragon's Eyes and Hyperaccelerators. Expertise capped and above the spell hit cap with 798 haste rating which is 31.64% melee haste and then I exported it to EnhSim and ran EP values off it with a 40 step for haste and the EP value for haste came out to 1.63 which is pretty much what I expected. Hit rating with the same step gave a value of 1.87, also pretty much what I expected.

Then I replaced all those haste gems with AP gems dropping the set down to 578 haste rating which is 22.92% melee haste and reran EP values using the same steps. EP value for haste for that set shows 1.74 and the value for hit shows at 1.97 so I'm thinking you are doing something wrong since both of these runs were done above 20% haste with pretty divergent values and yet the EP values are remarkably similar.

Are you making sure to increase melee and spell haste by proper amounts? Keep in mind that we get 25% more melee haste per rating point then spell haste so if you are increasing them both by equal amounts you are giving the sim improper information.

Klillestol · 09/30/09, 1:18 PM

Hey guys,

Sorry for the elementary question here, but I'm new to using EnhSim and was hoping someone could help. I recently got an upgrade with an empty gem slot. For most of the other classes I have played, gemming is pretty straightforward. For my Survival Hunter, it's just Meta requirements and then Agi, Agi, and more Agi. However, Enhancement Shaman (as I'm sure you all know) are a bit unique in that Haste and AP seem to be very competitive with each other.

I followed the instructions I found and loaded my character into EnhSim. I did two different things:

1) I ran a bunch of simulations, manually adjusting my stats (I left the gem slot empty) to simulate the difference between a Haste and AP gem. In these simulations, Haste came out slightly ahead.
2) I ran "Calculate EP values" to see what would happen. In these numbers, it showed AP = 1.0, Crit = 2.30, Agi = 1.93, Haste = 1.75.

Questions:

- Is method #1 the "preferred way" to figure out the best gem?
- For the EP values, it showed a very high value for Crit and even Agi, yet I have found very little to support that any serious Enhance Shaman are gemming that way. Also, is 1.0 for AP expected?

Thanks!

Enkeedu · 09/30/09, 1:37 PM

Originally Posted by Klillestol

Hey guys,

Sorry for the elementary question here, but I'm new to using EnhSim and was hoping someone could help. I recently got an upgrade with an empty gem slot. For most of the other classes I have played, gemming is pretty straightforward. For my Survival Hunter, it's just Meta requirements and then Agi, Agi, and more Agi. However, Enhancement Shaman (as I'm sure you all know) are a bit unique in that Haste and AP seem to be very competitive with each other.

I followed the instructions I found and loaded my character into EnhSim. I did two different things:

1) I ran a bunch of simulations, manually adjusting my stats (I left the gem slot empty) to simulate the difference between a Haste and AP gem. In these simulations, Haste came out slightly ahead.
2) I ran "Calculate EP values" to see what would happen. In these numbers, it showed AP = 1.0, Crit = 2.30, Agi = 1.93, Haste = 1.75.

Questions:

- Is method #1 the "preferred way" to figure out the best gem?
- For the EP values, it showed a very high value for Crit and even Agi, yet I have found very little to support that any serious Enhance Shaman are gemming that way. Also, is 1.0 for AP expected?

Thanks!

I'd say that running the sim is probably the best way to compare configurations, but it can be tricky to modify the stats directly (see Rouncer's post above about different melee/spell haste scales). That said, I always use EP values when I'm comparing gems. I'm intrigued at how a haste gem sim'd to more dps than an AP gem when the EP for haste is 1.75. I would expect that haste would have to have an EP of more than 2.0 for it to be better than AP (AP gem is 40, haste gem is 20).

Oh, and AP will always be worth 1. It is the stat that all EP ratings are scaling off of. EP stands for "equivalency points" iirc, and in your example above, 1 haste is equivalent to 1.75 AP.

Horac · 09/30/09, 3:06 PM

Originally Posted by Klillestol

I followed the instructions I found and loaded my character into EnhSim. I did two different things:

1) I ran a bunch of simulations, manually adjusting my stats (I left the gem slot empty) to simulate the difference between a Haste and AP gem. In these simulations, Haste came out slightly ahead.
2) I ran "Calculate EP values" to see what would happen. In these numbers, it showed AP = 1.0, Crit = 2.30, Agi = 1.93, Haste = 1.75.

Questions:

- Is method #1 the "preferred way" to figure out the best gem?
- For the EP values, it showed a very high value for Crit and even Agi, yet I have found very little to support that any serious Enhance Shaman are gemming that way. Also, is 1.0 for AP expected?

Thanks!

I think your example here is the primary reason for the discussion around removing or lowering the emphasis of EP. At the end of the day, EP is just an estimate of how valuable each stat is compared to other stats in your current gear.

The bold part I think is important. EP works ok as a general guide for both gear and gem selection. But because of how EP is calculated it will always be better to sim different gear/gem sets and compare the results to get an idea of which is better for your gear setup. Because each piece of gear comes with 5 or 6 different stats on it, changing even a single piece of gear can have an impact on the EP calculation.

If you want accurate information about how a piece of gear or gem change will effect your dps use the sim. If you want a rough estimate for quick and dirty changes use EP. Just be aware that using EP may result in less optimal results because of how EP fluctuates with changes to your gear setup.