EP values are all relative to AP, which is always going to have a value of 1. In terms of stat value, there will always be 2 AP per 1 agi/crit/haste etc. So for anything to be more valuable than AP, it needs an EP of >2. In your case, Crit has this and nothing else. I am, however, surprised that you have such a high EP for crit.

Number 2 is an acceptable way to find your best choice for gemming given your current gear. As soon as you swap your gear, though, your numbers will very likely change.


[e] Enkeedu beat me to it, I'm not sure how I missed that post.

I'm beginning to wonder if the EP values are actually indicative to what is an actual upgrade stat wise. After simming several notable players stats - at least those that are stacking haste - I find that their haste EP drops well below 2.0 and in some cases as low as 1.6 per point. Strangely enough, replacing one 20 haste gem at a time with 40 ap results in a lower overall simulated DPS while replacing 1 40 ap gem with 1 20 haste gem results in a higher simulated dps. This seems to completely contradict what ep values the sim is actually giving us. Even with the BiS setup with ep ranges set at default, haste was only returning a 2.08 EP value!!

I stopped trusting the sim's value of haste on any matter. In game I treat it equal to AP when comparing pieces (pawn value of 2). Even though my current value is technically 2.64. I just figure it's a good stat when we can get it, but going out of your way to gear for it isn't beneficial. Wonky stat is wonky.

Has Anyone done any Simulating to see how good the tier 8 4 set bonus if its worth keeping till you get the T9 4set cause the t9 2set is complete fail. I have tried it with and without having that set bonus by switching out my tier pants for emblem ones and the only real difference is 2% crit for 2% haste and the set bonus of course. I havent seen any major DPS changes but maybe I am just over looking stuff...Any ideas would be great...thanks in advance

I too use an EP value for haste other than the computed enhsim output. It's not that I disagree with the sim's valuation of haste for a particular gear set, it's just that the relative value of haste can change a lot from small changes in gear stats. However rather than normalize haste to attack power, I normalize to hit (past spell cap), based on the assertions made in this post a couple months back:

http://elitistjerks.com/f79/t37332-e...7/#post1313733

You're using EP wrong. EP tells you what would happen if you added X of Y stat on top of what your current gearset gives. It's not going to tell you how to switch your gems. That's what RAWR and export to EnhSim is for. Also the default EP step for haste is 30 whereas the gem you're adding is 20.

Has anyone else been getting crazy numbers for intelligence? Mine is currently 4.25 which seems way out compared to crit of 1.98 and haste of 1.75.

If you had searched this thread you'd find several posts just like yours, with several responses just like mine. You have simulate mana turned on but probably don't have Shamanistic Rage in your priority order (it should be at the top). This means that the sim is under the impression that you're OOM.

Hm, this sounds really strange to me. The discussion is always about using AP or Haste...what I found with simulating my gear was that Crit always yielded slightly more DPS than haste but neither Haste nor Crit was better than AP (Raid-Buffed crit is somewhere at 35-40%). And, additionally, I'm talking about a difference of 4-5 DPS for gemming AP, Haste or Crit. This, at least for me, is consistent with what the EP calculation tells me. May it be that the issues, you are talking about, are very gear depending, anyway?

The bottom line here is that EP values are currently not what they once were. Back in the olden days we were able to state this is the EP values for T1, T2 etc. Even up to T6 gear we were able to give fairly sensible static values for EP so it was dead easy to compare gear you simply multiplied up the stats and compared two EP totals.

Then came WotLK and haste effects. Over the last year it has become painfully apparent that we cannot give a fixed set of EP values and hence the oft repeated mantra "You have to sim it for yourself". EP values were removed from the TTT and the mantra firmly took its place. Yet still people clinged to the notion that they could simply multiply up the stats to compare two items. Worse still people still cling to the ooohh stat X has > 2 EP I better "stack" that stat. This usually led to wild re-gemming/re-enchanting for the new stat costing hundreds of gold, often with disappointing results.

Now we are gradually coming to the realisation that doing any form of EP value stat comparison is really quite a bad idea given the current volatility of haste etc. The biggest issue is that the amount of effort it takes to work out how best to set up your gear. To setup the sim for multiple runs takes a lot of calculation. Doing this manually is a pain as it takes ages to switch around even a gem or two and re-run the results, Rawr's export helps of course and takes the tedium out of it and reduces the opportunity for errors to slip in. The other option is Rawr's optimiser and this is amazing, the issue is that the underlying calculations are decent but not as sound or as thorough as EnhSim.

So what to do? Personally I've given up entirely on using EP values. What I do is to use Rawr to predict optimisation of current gear and then CHECK the suggestion using Export to EnhSim. The ability of Rawr to hone in on a best setup is wonderful, if only EnhSim could have this feature or I could get Rawr to make a call to EnhSim as a dll so that its optimiaser was using EnhSim to calc the dps.

Perhaps this is a longer term goal? Add an option to EnhSim for a direct API call and provide a EnhSim.dll compiled from the current code. Then in Rawr I could add an option that the optimiser would make an API call with the config it wanted to test. The big issue is that it would take upwards of several hours to run. Rawr's optimiser runs several thousand possible combos of gear to find an optimal set. Running the sim a few thousand times even with a low 1000h config is going to take ages.

I've always used EnhSim rather than Rawr to generate EPs and then use Pawn to compare gear and upgrades. And I have always gemmed for straight AP once hit and exp capped as Enhsim never gave me a EP higher than 2.0 for any stat when I used a range the same as the total stat gain form all of my sockets.

Rawr optimiser really seems to favour hit and haste though over AP and crit which are my two highest EPs otherwise. From your above post Levva, would I be best following what Rawr says then?

If Astrylian the Rawr creator had his way the EP values tab would completely disappear, unfortunately he doesn't get rid of it because of the wailing and gnashing of teeth he fears from users if he did.

If you assume that the EP values display doesn't exist at all in Rawr you are going to get dramatically better results than if you even glance at it. Bottom line NEVER EVER use Rawr for EP values. EP values are crap at the best of times Rawr ones I never look at and would advise you do the same. Note the massive red disclaimer text saying DON'T rely on this.

If you really really really can't do without the crutch of EP values and you simply must delude yourself that they are meaningful then stick to EnhSim's EP values results.

Your gearing would be significantly better if you just ran EnhSim to get DPS results and ignored EP values as a quaint relic of past times.


Rawr's Optimiser

Perhaps its worth clearing up how this works. What Rawr does for ANY gear setup is to run through a full set of calculations, eg: amount of hit,miss etc for white dmg, yellow dmg, spells etc. crit rates, talent effects proc chances etc. At the core of the code is effectively a routine that takes a set of Stats and returns a dps value. The set of stats is made up of the gear + gems + enchants + buffs.

Now the graphs you see in Rawr - eg: showing the head slot items. What it does is get a Stats object with your current gear, gems etc and assumes your head slot is empty. It calls the dps routine and gets a value. This is the base value with that slot empty. It then looks at all the head slot items with relevant stats (ie: AP, hit, crit, Agi etc and ignores things like spirit) and it generates a new Stats object for your gear + the item. It runs the dps routine and gets a new value. Subtracting base value from the new value gets a dps figure for that new item. THIS is the number you see in the chart.

It does this for every item in your item cache. So if you see 40 items in the head slot chart it ran the sim 41 times. A base calc + 40 sims one for each item. This is surprising to most people as its really quite fast.

The optimiser works in exactly the same way. You mark the items, gems, enchants etc that you have available (in bags/bank/known skills etc) anything that you want to swap around to possibly improve your current setup. It does a base calc first, then tries lots of different combos of gear. Each and every combo it tries it does a FULL sim of and gets back a dps figure. The calculation is the same its just different gear its trying.

It works on the basis of honing in on what combo of gear is giving the best result. Each time it changes something its trying to get closer and closer to an optimum set from what is available. This often means it does a few thousand runs of the sim from start to finish. Each one on a slightly different setup each one generating a new dps figure. When its done it presents the result.


Now at present there seems to be a bug that at certain points suddenly makes hit seem to be the stat that gives higher dps. I suspect this is to do with a rounding error but as yet I haven't found the issue. The point is when its found the optimiser will still do exactly what it did in the past. ie: run the sim thousands of times. It will still pick the gear with the highest dps. Its just that the gear it uses will not have the bug with hit.

Note that NOTHING in this process involved EP values at any stage. RAWR DOES NOT USE EP VALUES AT ALL. In fact neither does EnhSim.

I think you are deluding yourself. Again. This EP bashing happens with a couple of months between. It's getting really old.

EP isn't magic numbers that solves your DPS and gearing issues instantly. It's not silly digits drawn randomly from a hat to delude people into thinking "stat X gud" either. EP is stat weighing based on DPS gains by introducing more of said stat. And that's it. Any added problems due to this, like removing another stat, reaching a soft/hard cap, diminishing returns and whatnot, are problems outside of actual EP. Yes, it's too bad that gear doesn't come as stat X+5% as EP would be a lot easier but that's just not how itemization is. Yes, it's far better to calculate individual sets and see how that affects your personal DPS. Yes, EP just shows trends in stat weighing. But this is known factors for a lot of us. We know of EP's limitations and keep them in mind when working with EP. So for all that do this, you propose removing the only source of looking at all gear to see trends in upgrade paths, just to get what? Shots in the dark with Rawr exports into EnhSim? Rawr has to use something to weigh gear and EnhSim takes too long to individually calculate sets.

Warning newbes is fine. Explaining the shortcomings of EP to people that don't understanding it is fine. Spreading FUD about EP is not fine.

No it doesn't sorry but this is a complete misconception. Rawr DOES NOT use ANY weights AT ALL in its calculations. It works in the same manner as EnhSim.

The difference between the two and the reason the EnhSim is dramatically more accurate is that EnhSim actually does step by step blow by blow calculations as if you were in actual combat, and runs this over thousands of hours of simulated combat. Rawr by comparison uses the same formulae and the same calculations but assumes that if something procs 50% of the time to give 100AP then the average AP it will give is 50.

Both sims use the same calculations, both give similar results, both work out EP values in exactly the same manner. EnhSim takes longer because its doing a proper genuine simulation, Rawr on the other hand is using averages so that it gets the result really quickly. In neither sim are EP values used to work out DPS they never have been and never will be.



I do take on board your comments about what EP values are but seriously extremely few people actually understand that. The vast majority of people time and time again assume they can get a set of EP values and that tells them how to gear/gem/enchant.

In fact the most common misconception is still very true, people will still try to multiply up the stats on one item with their EP values and compare it to the multiplied up stats on another item. This was fine when EP values were static it simply isn't viable these days and produces some very misleading results. We do seem to agree on this.

Whilst I do appreciate that FUD is perhaps unwelcome. We do need a massive amount of re-education about what EP values actually are. In that vein encouraging people to simply use EnhSim to get their dps values change their gear and run it again to get a new dps value is far far better than ever speaking about EP values.

EPs are fine for guiding you but shouldn't be used these days to actually compare items. They are just too unreliable for accurate comparisons especially where haste is involved.

Please don't take bits out of context like that. It looks like I'm implying that Rawr uses EP or something like it with your comment.

I understand the fundamentals of Rawr. It's a solid tool of those specs that are fully supported. We both know this isn't happening with enhance anytime soon. Your approach to a hybrid (pun not intended) solution with Rawr and EnhSim looks really good and is a step up from basic EnhSim. I really mean that.

What grinds my gears is that EP is blamed for ignorant and/or stupid people. I know that 90+% of all EP discussions are simply a waste of time as the person asking them should stay the fuck away from EP all together. I'm just not happy losing this tool because of said people.

An example of how EP is pretty nifty compared to raw DPS comparisons:

You progress through tier X and gain the usual stats, little to no haste. EP is a,b,c, etc. You enter tier X+1 and gain some more of the usual stats and some haste. EP suddenly change and give haste a new value of, say, 1.8 EP up from 1.1. In your Rawr gear comparison window, you don't see this. Your gems may still be hit for yellow and your gear is a mix of most beneficial stats. You're not aware that haste is potentially up to take over AP in pure DPS. You'll still find the BiS gear by Rawr/EnhSim if your checklist is long enough, so that's not the problem. But you've lost the ability to see the stat trend. The next run you do may change all your gems to haste and you never saw it coming.

In your example what you would see is in Rawr it suddenly re-optimising your gear for haste. It sounds like you haven't really used Rawr all that much. Its primary benefit is in the optimiser which looks at thousands of possible combos of items/gems/enchants etc you mark as available and works out the highest dps combo. This is an amazingly good part of the program. Even if you didn't run the optimiser all the graphs would show gemmings suggesting higher dps from haste. This works only if you have turned on show gemming combos.

It also sounds like you haven't used it much lately its come on leaps and bounds in the last month or so and gives pretty damned good results at present. There is always issues of course - the same is true of EnhSim (just look at its issue tracker), however I do my best to solve these as and when people point them out. The sanity check of exporting data to EnhSim is of course something I'd expect every elitist jerk reader to be doing and not just relying on Rawr's closed solution methodology.

I'd agree that we shouldn't entirely abandon EP values. However I'd like to see a re-focusing of attention away from them towards iterative solutions and graphing. The new graph features added to Enhsim should help this. The aim is to find any local maximums/minimums that might exist with stats close to what you currently have equipped. This would then give a visual representation that by changing stats from X to Y you would get a dps increase.

I totally agree we should have a means of seeing where small changes to gear might give decent returns, EP values have too much baggage for this in my view and so alternatives should be found. This does NOT mean dropping the idea all together is what I am after. I suspect you are taking my antipathy to the way people treat EP values (note not the values themselves) as meaning I want no method of indicating what direction to take to improve our gear. This isn't true.

I would love to see a graphed EP chart. I expect though that it is going to take a pretty significant rewrite to be able to do that in its current state. I was going to suggest it for jEnhSim as that would be a much more probably place for implementation.

Either way, if it makes it's way into the current incarnation, it will solve a lot of the uncertainty I've had about gemming for AP vs Haste.

I have seen Lightning Bolt crits over 11k and my Windfury crits, even with both hits critting, have yet to reach that point. Also noteworthy is that because Windfury has an internal cool down of 3 seconds (not 100% confirmed, but it is believed to be somewhere in that range) it in essence places a cool down on the windfury glyph.

While all shocks have cool downs, Flame Shock has a dot time of 18 seconds, so even while on cool down it still doing damage, and allows you to use Earth shock and Maelstrom Weapon charges for Lightning Bolt.

What i was REALLY saying is the comparison of which glyph is going to be better will be based off your Melee Crit chance VS your Spell Crit Chance, raid buffed. Low spell crit means the dot ticks will have less of a chance to crit, thus the value of this glyph will be lower. I'm not mentioning your melee crit here because more than likely it will be quite high most of the time during raids.

In testing of this glyph, I have found it to provide me a DPS increase in 25 mans, where i have a more raid buffs, and not as much in 10 mans. Still have to do more testing of course but this is just what I have found so far.

PS: Please pardon grammer and spelling ive been awake for all of 10 minutes now.

I think abandoning EP values over more sophisticated ways to calculate upgrades in gear seems a bit trivial. I mean, item upgrade choices usually dont have many options on what we want anyway. Let's say you have Belt of Dragons and the 245 level belt dropped (belt of Deathly dominion). You are going to take it because the stat difference is massive (so its surely an upgrade even if minimal) and there isnt really any other choice. So if you actually did a pretty intelligent theorycrafting you are pidgeon-holed in a single item and your calculations didn't provide any real results.

About gemming, we have around 12-14 gem slots average. Lets say the educated person used his real calculations and found out that he should gem with some stat that in reality has for example 2.1EP. Another person uses Enhsim EP values that are quite false, so while thinking he is gemming with for example a 2.1EP stat, in reality it has a pretty low 1.6EP.

The first player is gaining 504-588 real EP. The second player because of his ignorance will be gaining 384- 448 EP. The average EP bonus the first player will gain through his hard work is around 130EP, which equals usually to about 1% more DPS. This difference wont even show up in real raid encounters, and this is the maximum that can exist (2.1EP vs 1.6EP is pretty huge).

It seems to me that this game isn't punishing enough people for not being educated and not knowing what they are doing, or looking it on the other side of the coin, it isn't rewarding players very much that actually want to search things a bit more.

Maybe we should just stay with the EP values and focus more on DPS priorities and cycles, where some real difference can be made. But of course it all depends on how much time and thought someone is prepared to invest compared to the results he is getting.

I'd disagree a bit here. The 245 Deathly Dominion is, if your EP values are similar to mine, a very very small DPS upgrade (whereas the 258 is BiS and a significant upgrade). Knowing this at a glance, and that say a hunter in your guild gets far more from it, would be a benefit to your guild (and therefore to you) by being a much larger raid DPS upgrade from his belt of dragons. If we really wanted to just say "this is new and from a higher tier of content, it must be an upgrade, /roll", then we wouldn't be discussing it here and spending time trying to understand our own gearing through the sim.

Well i don't know where we disagree. If your EP values say that this is a very small upgrade of course you should pass on it.

The belt was meant as an example to show that often there aren't many choices of upgrades anyway and that generally massive stat upgrades won't leave you with lower dps IF your calculations of your EP values are faulty. I never said that someone should decide to take an item because of its higher level.

By the way, how small upgrade of DPS is it? If you could pm me your EP values it would be nice.

Edit: I think the misunderstanding happened because of something i didn't express well. With "You are going to take it because the stat difference is massive (so its surely an upgrade even if minimal)" i meant that "You are probably going to take it because at most occassions the EP value comparison of the two items will show that the 245 belt is better".

What Levva said here is the most annoying thing I have found with the RAWR Optimizer at the moment. Constantly, placing hit with values 600+. The method I have used has been to use RAWR get something that feels 'right', export it to EnhSim and check it out. Quick, easy and without exception has with each addition to gear or change in tier sets, translated into improved dps. An understanding of the 'differnt' types of boss fights (movement, static, etc) means I may swap to a haste build or go more with an AP/Crit build. But the great thing about RAWR it gives you the opportunity do 'what if's' quickly.

I stopped using EP values at the start of Ulduar, largely because I started using RAWR. It just simplified the whole gear decison making process for me. However, with this inflated Hit value I am getting at the moment I am having real difficulties being half way sure as to which way to go at the moment from a gemming point of view. I took the [Cudgel of the Damned] (haven't seen the Axe yet) and now I am trying to work out wether to use it in my OH over [Caress of Insanity] But I simply do not trust the inflated hit at the moment. On some optimise runs I am getting Caress as the choice on others the Cudgel but either way inflated hit.

I have often tried explaining to guildies the complexity of working out what is and what is not an upgrade for an Enhancement Shaman and how it seems changing one piece of gear can mean a large regemming excerise.

It would be interesting if anyone would like to armory my profile to see what they get in RAWR because after literally hundreds of RAWR and sim runs over the last two weeks I am spending longer in the sim and RAWR than I am in Ulduar and ToGC put together. This seems some what ironic.