EnhSim, DPS simulator - Page 11

Malan · 09/19/08, 3:05 PM

Originally Posted by Hothgor

BTW, can anyone explain WHY I was doing so much more damage with the rotation system?

Self fulfilling prophecy?

Rouncer · 09/19/08, 3:33 PM

Just a note on the mechanics of Windfury and how it interacts with Elemental Weapons (I was reminded of this while doing some testing earlier and since I had forgotten I just want to make sure that the Sim is using the proper mechanics).

Elemental Weapons adds 40% to the total Windfury proc not just to the bonus AP.

So for rank 8 Windfury Weapon it would be

((Weapon dps x (AP + (1250 x 1.4))/14) x weapon speed) x 1.4

The first 1.4 representing the Windfury Weapon Glyph and the second one representing Elemental Weapons.

If that is already incorporated into the Sim then just ignore this.

(if there is doubt that the mechanic works that way the simplest check is just to respec and beat on a dummy without Elemental Weapons and then with it and you will see a jump in damage that is too much to be explained by Elemental Weapons only working on the AP bonus - use rank 5 in the beta since that is the highest rank that is actually still getting bonus AP damage although the Elemental Weapons talent will work on the new ranks but just without any bonus AP)

Hothgor · 09/19/08, 4:05 PM

Originally Posted by Malan

Self fulfilling prophecy?

I invite you to test it out for yourself, Malan. With a level 80 premade, we will have the same gear, talents, and we SHOULD have the same skill levels when it comes to this. When I get home later tonight, I will put in the premade 80 character stats into the simulator, and I'll see what it says I am supposed to be doing assuming perfect prioritization. I invite you to 'show me the numbers' yourself and challenge my statements here in the previous post. I can only post what the data I'm collecting from the BETA shows me after all. If you can do better, surely you can do the same!

Pitbuller · 09/19/08, 4:14 PM

Hotgor: There might be different priorities if you are not raid buffed. I'm not interested about solo dps only raid dps. Test with all raid buffs and there might be some point.

Malan · 09/19/08, 4:19 PM

Originally Posted by Hothgor

I invite you to test it out for yourself, Malan. With a level 80 premade, we will have the same gear, talents, and we SHOULD have the same skill levels when it comes to this. When I get home later tonight, I will put in the premade 80 character stats into the simulator, and I'll see what it says I am supposed to be doing assuming perfect prioritization. I invite you to 'show me the numbers' yourself and challenge my statements here in the previous post. I can only post what the data I'm collecting from the BETA shows me after all. If you can do better, surely you can do the same!

Hey pal, ask a question, get an answer. I'm not the one making the claims here. The onus is on you, not me.

Hothgor · 09/19/08, 4:42 PM

Originally Posted by Pitbuller

Hotgor: There might be different priorities if you are not raid buffed. I'm not interested about solo dps only raid dps. Test with all raid buffs and there might be some point.

That is a specious argument. Your simulation allows us to test our damage with or without certain buffs, does it not? It should not work 'better' with raid buffs than it does without. It should be able to accurately simulate our damage with a variety of buffs/debuffs/enchants/weapon imbunes etc, should it not? It should work regardless of if you are in a raid or not just as long as the correct buffs/debuffs are checked in the GUI. If it does not, then something is seriously wrong.

I punch in my solo premade stats into the simulator, a number should pop out that closely resembles my live testing data.

I punch in my raid premade stats into the simulator, a number should pop out that closely resembles my live testing data.

Malan · 09/19/08, 4:51 PM

Originally Posted by Hothgor

that closely resembles my live testing data.

How can it closely resemble testing data if you didn't have those buffs and debuffs while testing?

Mman · 09/19/08, 4:58 PM

Originally Posted by Malan

How can it closely resemble testing data if you didn't have those buffs and debuffs while testing?

He means that the sim should accurately match testing if the buffs/debuffs are the same in both situations. IE, the sim ran without raid buffs should match the testing he did.

Also, might it be possible that a cast sequence macro is better for a non-raid solo situation? From what I have seen raid buffs up the spell portion of our DPS. A cast sequence is tailored to fit in as many of our melee strikes as possible and a priority system allows us to maximize our spell DPS.

Hothgor · 09/19/08, 5:07 PM

Originally Posted by Malan

How can it closely resemble testing data if you didn't have those buffs and debuffs while testing?

Why wouldn't it? If the simulator has my EXACT paper doll stats, buffs and all, input into it, it should simulate my damage and be reasonably close to my live tested damage. If the simulator has my paper doll raid buffed stats input into it, it should simulate my damage and also be reasonably close to what my live test are doing. I'll do some more testing tonight. If you have access right now, you could be spending time checking it out for yourself instead of being nitpicky :P

Originally Posted by Mman

He means that the sim should accurately match testing if the buffs/debuffs are the same in both situations. IE, the sim ran without raid buffs should match the testing he did.

Originally Posted by Mman

Also, might it be possible that a cast sequence macro is better for a non-raid solo situation? From what I have seen raid buffs up the spell portion of our DPS. A cast sequence is tailored to fit in as many of our melee strikes as possible and a priority system allows us to maximize our spell DPS.

Why wouldn't it be better in a raid? Unless our melee damage is less than our spell casting damage, we will always be prioritizing SS/LL over shocks and a potential extra MW_LB. SS has a higher priority over most of the other abilities. With the cooldowns in place on our abilities, we are restricted to essentially casting 1 shock and 1 LL between SS casts. Unless we are talented for Reverberation, any shock cooldown would overlap with our SS cooldowns, causing us to cast one every 9 seconds instead of 8 if we opted to cast a second one.

Sydane · 09/19/08, 5:26 PM

If the theory and sims determines an "ideal" rotation based on a priority system, and your ingame tests show that you can't match that dps, all that proves is your own inability to match the execution of the sim, not a flaw in the theory. There are many extraneous things that influence actual ingame execution, from lag to player awareness. Sometimes the sim can create an impossibly ideal situation, and if that is the case it would need to be addressed (for instance if it wasn't including latency and was creating a perfect rotation that would never happen). Other times things don't need to be included in calculations because they affect everything equally, but they will reduce your actual seen results (things like partial resists and crit suppression for casters aren't going to change your gearing as a caster).

One of the biggest reasons hunters and destruction warlocks are able to do top dps now is because there is basically nothing for them to screw up. You press your one button over and over, and you get a result that is as close to the theory as one can get. Those classes are conducive to that, because the theory has proven that adding something more complex actually reduces your overall dps. Not everyone can play a class that requires you to make a judgment call every couple of seconds in order to optimize dps, but anyone can spam a button, and it certainly makes getting out of the fire easier if you have nothing else to pay attention to.

Quite frankly, the game is simple enough that the margin of difference, even for the most complex classes, is rarely very much. Spamming a macro will get you consistent dps because you can't screw it up, and it minimizes the impact of latency. If a more complex rotation or priority system allows for better ideal dps but requires more skillful execution, not everyone will be able to do that. Many of us eagerly anticipate the 3.0 changes as we believe our personal skill will set us apart from the button mashers, especially in certain classes. One of the things that makes me more excited to play my enhancement shaman is the potential for it to be complex and interesting. I look forward to the same thing being true of my warlock as well. Plenty of us will be quite happy to see the people that think they are great just because they can use a spreadsheet and press one button over and over drop off the charts when playing skillfully actually matters. But the sad reality is the difference is probably never going to be as significant as we would like to think it is, especially in a game where the single most important factor is the gear you have.

Hothgor · 09/19/08, 6:00 PM

Originally Posted by Sydane

If the theory and sims determines an "ideal" rotation based on a priority system, and your ingame tests show that you can't match that dps, all that proves is your own inability to match the execution of the sim, not a flaw in the theory. There are many extraneous things that influence actual ingame execution, from lag to player awareness. Sometimes the sim can create an impossibly ideal situation, and if that is the case it would need to be addressed (for instance if it wasn't including latency and was creating a perfect rotation that would never happen). Other times things don't need to be included in calculations because they affect everything equally, but they will reduce your actual seen results (things like partial resists and crit suppression for casters aren't going to change your gearing as a caster).

What a polite way to say 'you suck'. Try it yourself. Do better than I am, please.

Originally Posted by Sydane

One of the biggest reasons hunters and destruction warlocks are able to do top dps now is because there is basically nothing for them to screw up. You press your one button over and over, and you get a result that is as close to the theory as one can get. Those classes are conducive to that, because the theory has proven that adding something more complex actually reduces your overall dps. Not everyone can play a class that requires you to make a judgment call every couple of seconds in order to optimize dps, but anyone can spam a button, and it certainly makes getting out of the fire easier if you have nothing else to pay attention to.

All classes are supposed to be doing equal DPS in raids. If only hunters and warlocks can do 'perfect' damage rotations in a raid, who do you think they will stack in raids over us? You're explination only proves my contention that they need to adjust the mechanics of MW and our cooldowns to allow us to have a 'perfect' damage rotation. If they can't we wont compete. If we don't compete, we won't raid. Simple as that.

Originally Posted by Sydane

Quite frankly, the game is simple enough that the margin of difference, even for the most complex classes, is rarely very much. Spamming a macro will get you consistent dps because you can't screw it up, and it minimizes the impact of latency. If a more complex rotation or priority system allows for better ideal dps but requires more skillful execution, not everyone will be able to do that. Many of us eagerly anticipate the 3.0 changes as we believe our personal skill will set us apart from the button mashers, especially in certain classes. One of the things that makes me more excited to play my enhancement shaman is the potential for it to be complex and interesting. I look forward to the same thing being true of my warlock as well. Plenty of us will be quite happy to see the people that think they are great just because they can use a spreadsheet and press one button over and over drop off the charts when playing skillfully actually matters. But the sad reality is the difference is probably never going to be as significant as we would like to think it is, especially in a game where the single most important factor is the gear you have.

Again, wonderful way to say 'you suck'. Again, I say 'show me the numbers'. But you are right. Spamming a button won't let me 'screw up'. The problem is that I prioritized my spells EXACTLY the way they are listed on the simulator. MW_LvB, MW_LB, FS, SS, LL, ES, LS. If FS is down, I cast it ahead of SS regardless. When MW procs, I cast LvB regardless of the cooldowns of my other abilities. If both shocks and SS are down, and MW isnt up, I use Lava Lash. If my dot is up, all other abilities are on cooldowns and MW is not up, I use Earth Shock or LS. If I get a quick 5 stack of MW and LvB isn't up, I cast MW_LB. Its all very 'simple' I know.

Unfortunately for me, the burden of proof doesn't rest on my shoulders. It rests on you to show me that I am wrong!

Mman · 09/19/08, 6:12 PM

Originally Posted by Hothgor

Why wouldn't it be better in a raid? Unless our melee damage is less than our spell casting damage...

In a non-raid situation the spell DPS gained through doing a priority system might not be enough to make up for the melee dps loss of not doing a cast sequence. However, the raid buffs could be enough to make the spell dps gained through a priority system more than the melee dps lost. Our spell dps does not need to bigger portion of our overall dps for this to be true.

Originally Posted by Hothgor

Unfortunately for me, the burden of proof doesn't rest on my shoulders. It rests on you to show me that I am wrong!

This would be true if you had proven anything. Unfortunately everybody else has more evidence than you do (or at least what you have shown to us). The only thing you have proven is the inability for you to match the simulator, not that a cast sequence is supperior.

tukez · 09/19/08, 6:28 PM

Just remember, that simulator is not for lvl 80 yet. Some new mechanics are probably bit off too. LvB in simulator is the first rank at lvl 75, other stuff is lvl 70.

Hothgor · 09/19/08, 6:41 PM

Originally Posted by tukez

Just remember, that simulator is not for lvl 80 yet. Some new mechanics are probably bit off too. LvB in simulator is the first rank at lvl 75, other stuff is lvl 70.

Game mechanics, aside from the rating needed for 1% increase, don't change from level 70 to level 80. If the simulator is ONLY going to work for level 70, then why are we using it?

Hothgor · 09/19/08, 6:45 PM

Originally Posted by Mman

In a non-raid situation the spell DPS gained through doing a priority system might not be enough to make up for the melee dps loss of not doing a cast sequence. However, the raid buffs could be enough to make the spell dps gained through a priority system more than the melee dps lost. Our spell dps does not need to bigger portion of our overall dps for this to be true.

Even with my own 'rotation', I assumed that MW_LvB and MW_LB AND FS are all ALREADY given priority over SS and LL.

Originally Posted by Mman

This would be true if you had proven anything. Unfortunately everybody else has more evidence than you do (or at least what you have shown to us). The only thing you have proven is the inability for you to match the simulator, not that a cast sequence is supperior.

Then they should feel free to post their BETA dps results here for all to see, and explain exactly what they did as I have. No one has 'proven' anything. When YO!'s Simulator was released, it was well vetted by the player community when they compared its results with in game testing. No such effort, outside of mine, has been made for this simulator.

tukez · 09/19/08, 7:48 PM

Originally Posted by Hothgor

Game mechanics, aside from the rating needed for 1% increase, don't change from level 70 to level 80. If the simulator is ONLY going to work for level 70, then why are we using it?

Spell ranks might make a difference.

Thanks for making an effort to validate the sim, but I think it's a bit too early for that. I am actually thinking how to implement a fixed rotation system to the sim, in addition to the priority system. I'm open minded for every possibility. Just trying to make a good sim here, not prove anything.

I read your post on the WotLK thread about FT normalization to 1.5 and 3.0 speeds. My sim does not take that into account. So, I just want to know that this mechanic is correct, before I change it to the sim.

I read someone reporting high LL crits. Is LL affected by the 50% off hand penalty or not? Someone also said, the crits are affected by Elemental Fury, which sounds wierd.

Hothgor · 09/19/08, 8:10 PM

Originally Posted by tukez

Spell ranks might make a difference.

True, but the additional melee ranks would also offset those. IMHO, the simulator should be based on level 80 ratings, spells and abilities. We may only have 1-2 weeks of fun at level 70 before WotLK comes out, and I'd hate to see the simulator wasted if it really is designed for only level 70 combat.

Originally Posted by tukez

Thanks for making an effort to validate the sim, but I think it's a bit too early for that. I am actually thinking how to implement a fixed rotation system to the sim, in addition to the priority system. I'm open minded for every possibility. Just trying to make a good sim here, not prove anything.

Yeah, I'm not trying to be an ass about it, I just want to min/max our damage in practical settings. What if it turns out that a priority system does 1% more damage than a simple macro? Would that be worth the hassle of blandly staring at our cooldowns and weapon procs for 4 straight hours at a time? It hardly seems fun to have to put so much effort into maximizing our damage while all the other classes can just play their classes. *shrug*

Originally Posted by tukez

I read your post on the WotLK thread about FT normalization to 1.5 and 3.0 speeds. My sim does not take that into account. So, I just want to know that this mechanic is correct, before I change it to the sim.

The wiki seems to indicate that the range is in fact 1.3 to 4.0. It's hard to imagine that I've spent the past 5 years playing wow under the assumption of the 1.5 to 3.0 range, however. It would also be the first instance of blizzard balancing a 'spell coefficient' around a sub 1.5 second casting spell. I will check with some white weapons tonight to be sure.
Flametongue Weapon - Spell - World of Warcraft The comments seem to also indicate the lower boundary to be 1.5 seconds as well.

Originally Posted by tukez

I read someone reporting high LL crits. Is LL affected by the 50% off hand penalty or not? Someone also said, the crits are affected by Elemental Fury, which sounds wierd.

I was getting 2100-2300 LL crits on the beta. That would seem to indicate its base weapon damage and not 50%.

mek · 09/19/08, 8:26 PM

Originally Posted by Hothgor

TrI was getting 2100-2300 LL crits on the beta. That would seem to indicate its base weapon damage and not 50%.

Follow-up question: what kind of damage does a WF proc from Lava Lash do?

tukez · 09/19/08, 8:32 PM

Originally Posted by Hothgor

True, but the additional melee ranks would also offset those. IMHO, the simulator should be based on level 80 ratings, spells and abilities. We may only have 1-2 weeks of fun at level 70 before WotLK comes out, and I'd hate to see the simulator wasted if it really is designed for only level 70 combat.

Level 80 might be available as separate exe in next version. What are all the things I have to remember to change...ratings, spell ranks, armor reduction formula(or value in the formula) I think. Reistance formula maybe...what else?

Hothgor · 09/19/08, 8:51 PM

Originally Posted by mek

Follow-up question: what kind of damage does a WF proc from Lava Lash do?

I haven't tested this actually. I'll check tonight!

Malan · 09/19/08, 10:26 PM

Originally Posted by mek

Follow-up question: what kind of damage does a WF proc from Lava Lash do?

It does off hand windfury damage, no difference.

Hothgor · 09/19/08, 10:31 PM

I was wrong, FT scales from 1.3 to 4.0 weapon speeds.

Hothgor · 09/20/08, 4:11 AM

Fresh from the Beta. I did find out that Windfury is still bugged for ranks 6-8, and SS still doesn't show up int he combat log as far as I could tell. HOWEVER, melee attacks are no longer consuming SS charges. This is good news of course. In a few other tests, WF-5 was being outdamageg by the offhand flametongue weapon damage

Paper Doll Stats Unbuffed:
2298 AP
1238 Spell Power
8.68 MHit
2.68 SHit
25.23 MCrit
21.67 SHit
1.83 Haste
129 Str
439 Agi
386 Int

Talent Spec:

Test 1

This was a 12 minute fight. 0/5 UR, 3/3 SS and 3/3 IES, however due to mana issues I did not use Static Shock at all. Because WF is still broken, and the fact that FT is doing more damage than WF is presently, I used dual FT enchants. For this testing purpose, I used the following macro:

#showtooltip
/castsequence reset=8 Stormstrike, Flame Shock, Lava Lash, Lava Burst, Flame Shock, Stormstrike, Lava Lash, Earth Shock, Lava Burst, Lava Lash;

The results were interesting!

Length of Test: 12 minutes
Total Damage: 1450291
DPS: 2014.3

Ability         Count        Damage       %          High        Low
Lava Burst       70          411915     31.4         6829        4334 
Melee            808         360235     27.5      
FT Weapon        614         257189     19.6        
Lava Lash        104         95940       7.3         2733        541
Flame Shock      70          84713       6.5
Earth Shock      35          60574       4.6
FS Dot           113         41262       3.1

Pretty high damage for Lava Burst and Lava Lash!

Test 2

Same Macro, but 5/5 UR

Talent Spec: Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

Length of Test: 12 minutes
Total Damage: 1478905
DPS 2054

Ability        Count        Damage        %        High        Low
Lava burst       72         417056      30.9       6930        4444
Melee            829        377089      27.9
FT Weapon        609        245501      18.2
Lava Lash        107        109056       8.1       2853        559
Flame Shock      72         85184        6.3
Earth Shock      36         71981        5.3
FS Dot           120        43335        3.2

The spell damage portion of our overall damage with dual FT is around ~65%(~55% with MH WF)!!! Flametongue Weapon does NOT seem to be proccing off every hit in either test!

Test 3

My final test for the night! Same macro, but instead of equiping [Savage Gladiator's Cleaver] I used [Savage Gladiator's Spellblade] . Note that it is a MH only weapon!

Talent Spec: Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

Length of Test: 12 minutes
Total Damage: 1547292
DPS: 2149

Ability        Count        Damage        %        High        Low
Lava Burst      72          439407      31.6       6832        5009
Melee          1122         340137      24.5
FT Weapon       707         290991      20.9
Lava Lash       107         106116       7.6       2495        555
Flame Shock     72          97276        7.0
Earth Shock     36          72916        5.2
FS Dot          112         43925        3.2

Even with a caster MAIN HAND weapon with FT, it was quite a bit of an upgrade. Hope you found this info useful!

Hothgor · 09/20/08, 5:14 AM

Regarding Lava Lash

I took off all of my equipment and bought myself a nice shiny [Jambiya] . The listed damage range was 29-34 damage, according to my character sheet. I only tested this with flametongue enchant and only did a few attacks, but without any gear and procs, there was little need for a large sample size.

Min / Max
Weapon Damage Range: 29 34
Lava Lash Hits 37 40
Lava Lash Crits 113 116

Conclusions:
Damage is calculated using the 50% offhand penalty
Given the damage range, its reasonable to assume that Lava Lash crits get a damage bonus from both Elemental Fury AND Melee Crit Bonus (IE 300%)

We need to find out if this is a bug or not!

tukez · 09/20/08, 6:19 AM

Now with Elemental Weapons changed, does the 30% affect only the bonus spelldamage FT gives or the whole spelldamage which FT damage is calculated from?