EnhSim, DPS simulator - Page 12

Rouncer · 09/15/08, 9:50 PM

Originally Posted by Morelis

per weapon, not combined is indeed 36%..

THANK YOU!

I have been reading the old Enhancement thread page by page all day looking for that proof. I knew I wasn't losing it and that Windfury was 36% per weapon when off cooldown.

The numbers are basically perfect for what would be predicted by 36% chance per weapon.

726 Stormstrikes.

36% would be 261 mainhand windfuries (he had 249 or 34%)

That would leave 726-261 = 465 attacks that would get checked for offhand windfury (477 remaining in his test pool)

36% of that would be 167 offhand windfuries (he had 157 or 33%).

That basically fits although it does open the door that the percentage chance per weapon is slightly lower then the 36%, it actually may be 33-34% or it could just be that it is a small(ish) sample size and over a larger sample size it would show the 36% that was expected.

Very glad you saved that parse, and thanks again for posting it.

Morelis · 09/15/08, 11:12 PM

You left out crits.

546 SS, 194 MH WF = 35.5%
(546 - 194) SS, 120 OH WF = 34%

A little closer to 36% but what we would really need to be sure is a larger sample. It took over an hour and a half to get those 546 stormstrikes... Someone else can get more.

Chromean · 09/16/08, 2:51 AM

Originally Posted by Rounced

THANK YOU!

I have been reading the old Enhancement thread page by page all day looking for that proof. I knew I wasn't losing it and that Windfury was 36% per weapon when off cooldown.

The numbers are basically perfect for what would be predicted by 36% chance per weapon.

726 Stormstrikes.

36% would be 261 mainhand windfuries (he had 249 or 34%)

That would leave 726-261 = 465 attacks that would get checked for offhand windfury (477 remaining in his test pool)

36% of that would be 167 offhand windfuries (he had 157 or 33%).

That basically fits although it does open the door that the percentage chance per weapon is slightly lower then the 36%, it actually may be 33-34% or it could just be that it is a small(ish) sample size and over a larger sample size it would show the 36% that was expected.

Very glad you saved that parse, and thanks again for posting it.

Correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't WWS count windfury as two separate hits? So if you calculate the procs based on number of connected WF hits the results will show a higher percentage than it really is. I think it came up earlier in this thread already that you need to halve the number of connected WF hits and then calculate the percentage to get an accurate result . What my quick napkin math got out of that parse was ~17% for MH and ~13% for OH windfuries, it is a very small sample though you cannot expect absolute results as was pointed out already.

Morelis · 09/16/08, 3:53 AM

Originally Posted by Chromean

Correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't WWS count windfury as two separate hits? So if you calculate the procs based on number of connected WF hits the results will show a higher percentage than it really is. I think it came up earlier in this thread already that you need to halve the number of connected WF hits and then calculate the percentage to get an accurate result . What my quick napkin math got out of that parse was ~17% for MH and ~13% for OH windfuries, it is a very small sample though you cannot expect absolute results as was pointed out already.

That would probably be the proper way to do it, but since he didn't halve the stormstrikes(2 per hit as well) to begin with it ended up working out anyway. The numbers I listed were the halved values. As to the sample size I'm sure one of the statistics nuts around here can tell us exactly how accurate it is.

Raut · 09/16/08, 4:35 AM

Jesus fuck. This thread sure took a turn towards instant failboat all of a sudden.

1. The dataset for the "proof" that WF is so and so is low. Very low.

2. WWS is retarded and shows "hits" without crits so you have to add the crit nuber to hits to get the actual number of attacks.

3. WWS shows one WF proc as two WF attacks, like stated above.

Actual numbers:

      Hits  Crits  Total
SS   : 726 - 366 = 1092
MH WF: 249 - 139 = 388
OH WF: 157 -  83 = 240

So proc chance in this run was for MH: ((388/2)/1092)*100=17.77% and ((240/2)/1092)*100=10.99%.

The above numbers show you a few things. First you see why a very small dataset is bad(but you have to take my word for this until I can dig up my old statistics books to prove it, or someone else can), secondly you see how OH is locked out of WF by MH thus getting a very low proc chance.

Any chance you can put the actual log somewhere, Morelis so we don't have to put our faith in RETARDED WWS?

Edit: And just to let you know: Some of this is pieced together from guesswork on how WWS works so don't take my word for this as the end result. Need the log to be certain.

Pitbuller · 09/16/08, 4:51 AM

Raut: You divide with all SS attacks. You should use only mh SS attacks.
MH: ((388/2)/546)*100=35.53%
[(240/2)/ (1092/2 - (388/2) )]*100=34.09%

WWS parse with over 500 mh and oh SS attacks is big enough for checking 20% vs 36%. And it's closer to 36%

Levva · 09/16/08, 5:00 AM

Tukez could you settle the argument in the sim pls.

If you could record in the sim the number of hits (including crits), the number of WF procs, and the number of hits inside the WF cooldown. Then display these as percentages at the end of the run. We can then run the sim a lot and check.

If the output can show :
Total hits, Total WF procs, hits that were INSIDE the WF CD. We get WF procs/Total hits = Total % chance to proc AND WF Procs/(total hits - hits inside the WF cooldown) = total % chance to proc WF OUTSIDE the WF CD.

Now these figures will give us a 5000 hour sim of numbers of attacks at the current sim rate of 36% ON EACH WEAPON HIT. ie: I understand that every time you check a hit to see if it procs WF you use 36% chance.

You could then alter the sim and change the chance on each weapon hit proccing WF to 20% (which I believe it should be) and see what the rates are for inside and outside CD.

The sim can then show unbiased figures of what the proc rate ends up over a very very large sample, both inside and outside the CD.

Acutally it might be nice in the sim to have a "debug" tick box. So that normal runs didn't show these sorts of figures, and things like the average MW 5 stack times etc. Then if user turns on debug info they get the extra calcs. That way the sim runs full speed without debug info for most occasions and with the extra sometimes useful info when needed simply by ticking a box.

Edit: It might be nice to record MH hits, MH WF procs, MH hits inside WF CD separate from OH hits, OH WF procs, OH hits inside WF CD.

Levva · 09/16/08, 5:13 AM

Originally Posted by tukez

Hey questions about glyphs. Can we use same type of glyph in multiple slots and do they stack? Can we use minor glyphs in major slot? Also, if you use Glyph of Flametongue Weapon and dual FT, do you get 4% spell crit? Is the Glyph of Stormstrike bonus damage additive or multiplicative to the existing 20%.

The glyph interface has 6 round circles, 7 if you are an inscription profession guy. 3 of the circles (4 with inscription) are Major Glyphs, and 3 are minor. On using a glyph you fill up one of the slots. There is nothing on the Glyph (see Shaman Glyphs - Items - World of Warcraft) that says unique or unique equipped, so you might be able to get 3 of the same. I'll see if the beta is stable enough to try it this evening, although will need to find inscription person or level it :-(

The damage bonuses are almost certainly multiplicative as Blizzard changed a lot of effects, with patch 2.0 or 2.1 if memory serves, to be multiplicative and not additive as too many things were becoming possible to exceed or get close to 100% again would need proper testing. I can't see you having 3 Windfury Weapon glyphs and having +120% AP bonus or could it???

Although now the PTRs are actually up it should be possible to test it on there too if you can get through the queues.

Raut · 09/16/08, 5:16 AM

I knew I made a mistake... Sorry. At least it refreshes my hatred for WWS. (And my assumptions)

Why do you deduct MH WF procs from OH WF proc calculations? The argument stands as a whole and not only in cases where MH hasn't procced WF.
Something akin to (((388/2)+(240/2))/546)*100 = 57.51% of SS attacks procced WF.

We just have to disagree on the size of the dataset.

Philondra · 09/16/08, 5:21 AM

Originally Posted by Raut

I knew I made a mistake... Sorry. At least it refreshes my hatred for WWS. (And my assumptions)

Why do you deduct MH WF procs from OH WF proc calculations? The argument stands as a whole and not only in cases where MH hasn't procced WF.
Something akin to (((388/2)+(240/2))/546)*100 = 57.51% of SS attacks procced WF.

We just have to disagree on the size of the dataset.

As Rounced reminded us several pages back, SS will always attempt to proc from the MH first and, failing that, attempt to proc from the OH. Therefore, if SS procs an MH WF, the OH will never proc. We need to take this into account or else the OH proc rate will appear to be artificially low.

Edit to add: The purpose of this sim was NOT to find out what chance stormstrike has to proc WF. It was to find out what the chance is to proc WF while dual wielding if WF is currently not on cooldown. Stormstrike is merely the vehicle chosen to help ensure that WF is always off cooldown when attacking; if you just sit there and include autoattacking, latency and combat log lag will make it difficult to analyze results and determine the actual proc rate. Controlled tests can be done by turning your character model in such a way that specials will hit but your character will not autoattack.)

We then must compensate for the fact that SS attacks with both weapons, which we do by exluding the OH hit in cases where the MH procced WF, as the OH will have an observed proc rate of 0% in such a situation.

Pitbuller · 09/16/08, 5:29 AM

WF proc from SS = 0.36 + ((1-0.36)*0.36) = 0.5904 vs WWS 0.5751.
I deduct mh wf proc number from total oh attacks becouse those are under shared CD. I wanted just see proc% from both hands invidially.
Can we now forget this subject?

Updated lootrank link for 3.02 at 70lvl raiding. Database still bugs. You need lower str items ep value by self. Assuming spell hit cap gemmed etc if not there.

Raut · 09/16/08, 5:47 AM

Originally Posted by Philondra

As Rounced reminded us several pages back, SS will always attempt to proc from the MH first and, failing that, attempt to proc from the OH. Therefore, if SS procs an MH WF, the OH will never proc. We need to take this into account or else the OH proc rate will appear to be artificially low.

That's just it - it is low. Because MH gets prioritized, OH WF procs from SS will be far lower. You can't say that the OH proc chance on SS is near 36% when MH gets first shot at it with it's 36% proc chance. You can say OH WF chance is 36% if MH didn't proc WF first, but that is only looking at the remaining 64% of SS attacks.

And as a mind exercise:

Actual proc rate from the WWS: (120/546)*100 = 21.99%
Realistic proc chance of OH WF proc from SS: 0.64*0.36*100 = 23.04%

fauxpas · 09/16/08, 5:59 AM

Originally Posted by Raut

You can't say that the OH proc chance on SS is near 36%

That's not was this discussion was about. It was about any given attack of a single weapon outside the Windfury cooldown. And that's apparently 36%, even for the offhand.

Raut · 09/16/08, 7:26 AM

Originally Posted by fauxpas

That's not was this discussion was about. It was about any given attack of a single weapon outside the Windfury cooldown. And that's apparently 36%, even for the offhand.

SS is an atomic action that includes both MH and OH so talking about OH WF proc chance without taking the MH's proc chance into account makes no sense. That is my point. I'm being a pedantic here, but we're talking about the common rule-set we use in enhance theory-crafting so pedantic is good.

You're talking about all attacks having a 36% chance of proccing WF(outside of the 3sec rule). That's not right. The 36% applies to SS AFAIK. I did some quick mashup of a generic WWS report(twins, muru and some attempts on KJ):

Melee hit, crit, SS hit, crit:
1780+1278+421+248 = 3702 number of attacks
Excluding misses and parry
(Of course you automatically lose some potential WF procs due to SS, but you can't link the WFs from where they procced and every attack is a potential WF proc)

WF hit, crit:
827+475 = 1302. Procs is half that: 651

So my proc rate for the entire evening was ((1302/2)/3702)*100 = 17.59%. Now this is also a small dataset(too small in my book), but it's larger than the one we've been discussing in the SS debate.

fauxpas · 09/16/08, 7:35 AM

What you're describing is overall proc chance. That is at ~17,59% overall including attacks made during the cooldown, the chance has to be significantly higher for attacks outside the windfury cooldown.