EnhSim, DPS simulator - Page 12

Levva · 09/20/08, 8:49 AM

Hothgor has a point, at the end of the day we need to be able to prove that its possible to match what happens in game in the sim.

Now of course personal ability will come into it, and as long as SOMEONE can do the same dps as the sim, we can have confidence that the sim is accurate. Tukez has put in a fantastic effort to get things right despite Blizzard bugging different things out on each and every build. To my knowledge we haven't yet had a build that actually does what they claim it should.

So with some big assumptions :

The live build does what it says it should, ie: there are no "bugs"/undocumented features AND

Tukez manages to get the sim to the point where it matches what the live says its doing.

IF we can reach that situation then it should be perfectly possible to setup the sim to match exactly your situation in live. Then as Hothgor said it shouldn't make a blind bit of difference if you are soloing on a training dummy or fully raid buffed, as long as you enter the data into the sim exactly as you are setup in game. It should be possible for the best players to accurately match what the sim says.

If the best players exceed the sim dps or come up short on the sim dps then there MUST be something either in game or in the sim that's not behaving correctly. It should never be the case that the sim projects numbers unobtainable by the best players using exactly those stats and buffs in game.

However we are not at that stage yet as there are too many rapid changes and BUGS to accurately match dps. I hope we will get there soon.

Hothgor · 09/20/08, 12:10 PM

Originally Posted by tukez

Now with Elemental Weapons changed, does the 30% affect only the bonus spelldamage FT gives or the whole spelldamage which FT damage is calculated from?

Its no longer 15% bonus proc damage, but now 30% spell damage bonus. The max rank spell went from adding 211 spell damage to 274 spell damage.

Malan · 09/20/08, 12:27 PM

Its rather discouraging to see [Gauntlets of the Ancient Shadowmoon] worth more according to the sim than [Grips of Damnation]

Hothgor · 09/20/08, 1:37 PM

Originally Posted by Malan

Its rather discouraging to see [Gauntlets of the Ancient Shadowmoon] worth more according to the sim than [Grips of Damnation]

Not only that, but on the BETA realms, a MH 1.6 speed 75 dps 355 spell power weapon is out dpsing a MH 2.6 speed 130 dps weapon. How ironic would it be if we went after elemental shaman gear over hunter gear?

Pitbuller · 09/20/08, 2:06 PM

[Valorous Cryptstalker Tunic]
[Valorous Earthshatter Hauberk]
[Valorous Earthshatter Chestguard]

Actual this time Blizzard done our set right. It's good. It's even better than hunter t7. Elemental piece is lot worser but set bonus is nice.
Our set have lot of intellect but item level formula give more stat when spreading those that int is actual gain. If count only dps stats and give int value of 1. All other stats/ratings get value of 2 and ap get 1.
Ignoring sockets+bonus. All have the same.

Hunter set get 486points.
Our set get 486points.
Rogue set get 450points.
[Valorous Bonescythe Breastplate]

Actual int is even more valuable but ep numbers at 80lvl is still unsolved.

◊ Embar · 09/20/08, 3:11 PM

Originally Posted by Malan

Its rather discouraging to see [Gauntlets of the Ancient Shadowmoon] worth more according to the sim than [Grips of Damnation]

I went down to the servants in Blasted Lands yesterday with my elemental and enhancement sets. Surprisingly, DPSing as enhancement in a full elemental set with dual FT came out pretty close (+- 100dps in my current gear) to DPSing in proper enhancement gear. However, since SS is not showing in logs right now and SS was still bugged when I tested, this is not definitive - I'll try and get some proper logs later, but if I can replicate this consistently it'd be rather odd.

Hothgor · 09/20/08, 4:36 PM

Originally Posted by Embar

I went down to the servants in Blasted Lands yesterday with my elemental and enhancement sets. Surprisingly, DPSing as enhancement in a full elemental set with dual FT came out pretty close (+- 100dps in my current gear) to DPSing in proper enhancement gear. However, since SS is not showing in logs right now and SS was still bugged when I tested, this is not definitive - I'll try and get some proper logs later, but if I can replicate this consistently it'd be rather odd.

Searing Totem wasn't included in my posted data. I figured it would offset the lack of SS dps showing up. If I included both, I'm fairly certain that my test would still show me doing 60%+ spell damage. When I get home tonight, I'm swapping out my beta premade enhancement set for the elemental set, just to see what happens. I believe it has the potential to do more damage than I am currently seeing, simply because of the extra 600+ spell power!!

Malan · 09/20/08, 6:09 PM

Tukez am I missing someplace where I should input what level shaman I'm running the sim for? (Which would determine what spell ranks are being used I assume?) I can't find an option for it.

tukez · 09/20/08, 6:10 PM

Originally Posted by Malan

Tukez am I missing someplace where I should input what level shaman I'm running the sim for? (Which would determine what spell ranks are being used I assume?) I can't find an option for it.

Different levels are not done yet. Hold on.

Malan · 09/20/08, 6:15 PM

Originally Posted by tukez

Different levels are not done yet. Hold on.

Gotcha. I'm trying to get EP values for my beta char at 76 and they're producing some sort of wonky values (3.51 EP for crit).

h4rr0d · 09/20/08, 6:23 PM

Hope it's not OT here or if it has been mentioned already, but I have just logged on PTR to check out what did they do with the linked PVP gear (str got just rolled over to AP same as on our tier sets) but I have noticed more important thing. Surefooted enchant is changed to +10 hit +10 crit which is rather imba for us.

Also, seeing how caster items look rather good for us, has anyone tried grabbing 2 elemental tier 6 pieces for the set bonus yet, or is it completely insane thought? I was thinking about chest/shoulders+swp enhancement stuff and head/shoulders+gloves elemental depending on other stuff you have in the slots.

tukez · 09/20/08, 6:24 PM

Originally Posted by Malan

Gotcha. I'm trying to get EP values for my beta char at 76 and they're producing some sort of wonky values (3.51 EP for crit).

I'll do level 80 as separate exe first, because it's just easy. I'll consider adding an option for level later, if I have some spare time.

Malan · 09/20/08, 6:35 PM

The lvl 80 version would be fine, all I'm really trying to do is get a list of items from around 76-80 that are actually upgrades on the beta.

Pitbuller · 09/20/08, 6:48 PM

Two elemental t6 pieces is good idea but two set bonus is still only spell crit and not combined crit. Shoulders are very good but other parts aren't even close at best slot items. Resto shaman maybe can make elemental 2*set useful.

Elemental set bonus is about 70ep(45*1.15ep + 35*0.5ep) + 15mp5 for us.

(2) Set: Whenever you have an air totem, an earth totem, a fire totem, and a water totem active at the same time, you gain 15 mana per 5 sec, 35 spell critical strike rating, and 45 spell power.

Levva · 09/20/08, 9:03 PM

Originally Posted by h4rr0d

Hope it's not OT here or if it has been mentioned already, but I have just logged on PTR to check out what did they do with the linked PVP gear (str got just rolled over to AP same as on our tier sets) but I have noticed more important thing. Surefooted enchant is changed to +10 hit +10 crit which is rather imba for us.

Also, seeing how caster items look rather good for us, has anyone tried grabbing 2 elemental tier 6 pieces for the set bonus yet, or is it completely insane thought? I was thinking about chest/shoulders+swp enhancement stuff and head/shoulders+gloves elemental depending on other stuff you have in the slots.

Discussion of gear and upgrades should be made in the main Enh Shammy WotLK thread, this thread is for the EnhSim simulator, and stuff that directly affects the sim.

Skiace · 09/20/08, 9:46 PM

Originally Posted by Malan

Its rather discouraging to see [Gauntlets of the Ancient Shadowmoon] worth more according to the sim than [Grips of Damnation]

Appropriate noise needs to be made on the beta forums and through in-game reporting on this topic. We really don't want to end up gearing spell power over attack power in the end.

Hothgor · 09/20/08, 10:48 PM

After some interesting testing last night, I decided to test my DPS using ONLY elemental gear on the premade BETA realm. It should be noted initially that I was only able to sustain this for about 5 minutes before going OOM, due primarily to my super low attack power. In a typical raid situation, this would or should not be a problem at all. I used the same macro from the 3 previous tests:

#showtooltip
/castsequence reset=8 Stormstrike, Flame Shock, Lava Lash, Lava Burst, Flame Shock, Stormstrike, Lava Lash, Earth Shock, Lava Burst, Lava Lash;

My Talent Spec: Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

My Paper Doll Stats
970 AP
2228 SP
7.59 MHit
1.98 SHit
18.93 MCrit
20.78 SCrit
0 Haste
121 Str
71 Agil
572 Int

The results:

Damage: 675414
DPS: 2251.38

Ability          Damage        Count        %        MAX        MIN
Lava Burst       200233         29        32.7       7358       5672
FT Weapon        172129         380       28.1
Melee            102043         448       16.7
Flame Shock      45623          30         7.4       2590       1068
Lava Lash        37342          44         6.1       1760       381
Earth Shock      32261          14         5.3       4047       1988
FS Dot           22897          48         3.7

As you can see, this bested my previous best of ~2100 dps with enhancement gear and a MH spell power weapon. Spell Power seems to be THAT good DPS wise, and in my opinion should spark some serious discussion on how exactly we are going to gear ourselves.

Skiace · 09/21/08, 4:02 AM

Originally Posted by Hothgor

As you can see, this bested my previous best of ~2100 dps with enhancement gear and a MH spell power weapon. Spell Power seems to be THAT good DPS wise, and in my opinion should spark some serious discussion on how exactly we are going to gear ourselves.

This needs to spark discussion with the devs about how they expect us to gear. There's little discussion to be had amongst ourselves, as all signs are pointing toward gearing spellpower right now. To reiterate my last post, we need to be making a lot of noise about this.

Edit: I see Malan has started a thread on the topic: WotLK Beta (US-English) Forums -> Koraa - major issue with Enhancement gear

Urgok · 09/21/08, 4:46 AM

Originally Posted by Malan

Its rather discouraging to see [Gauntlets of the Ancient Shadowmoon] worth more according to the sim than [Grips of Damnation]

I was bored last friday and ran a sim of a well geared t6 Elemental Shaman that decided to spec Enhancement. Sorry for the formating.

mh_speed			          1.6
oh_speed			          1.3
mh_dps				39.0
oh_dps				87.3
mh_crit				28.22
oh_crit				28.22
mh_hit				10.434	
oh_hit				10.434
mh_expertise_rating		44	
oh_expertise_rating		44
ap				      722	
haste				11
armor_penetration		 0	
str				      106
agi				        99
int				      428
spellpower			      878
spell_crit			        28.860
spell_hit			        13.543	
base_mana		    2678

                    DPS                 PPM       MPS

white               221.87     14.36%    121.65
windfury              0.00      0%          0.00
flametongue     548.53     35.51%    128.69
stormstrike       22.23       1.44%     5.27      17.70     19.58%
lava lash           22.68      1.47%     14.71     21.40     23.67%
searing totem   186.93     12.1%     0.00
earth shock         0.00      0%         0.00      0.00      0.00%
flame shock     145.75      9.44%     4.59      13.70     15.16%
frost shock          0.00      0%         0.00      0.00      0.00%
lava burst           0.00      0%         0.00      0.00      0.00%
lightning bolt     396.81    25.69%   9.30      37.59     41.59%
lightning shield    0.00      0%         0.00      0.00      0.00%
misc                    0.00      0%        0.00

DPS 1544.81
MPS 90.39
MP2min 10847.07
Full t6 using a Brutal Gladiator Spellpower dagger and that 1.3 speed dagger from Heroic MGT. No enchantments and I do not think I gemmed anything, but I'd have to double check. I also left the Raid Buff and Debuff section completely blank. If this is accurate this build could easily out dps my current Shaman by a good 3 to 400 points, and I'm assuming the sim's dps value is inflated.

Low Life · 09/21/08, 5:05 AM

Originally Posted by Skiace

Appropriate noise needs to be made on the beta forums and through in-game reporting on this topic. We really don't want to end up gearing spell power over attack power in the end.

I don't see a reason why we wouldn't want to, if it gave us proper DPS and scaled well enough through different content. However, it'd need to be made clear which one we're supposed to pick. At the moment it seems like SP and AP gear are quite close to equal, if they want us to gear SP then AP gear should be close to useless, and vice versa.

Personally I'd love to run around in SP gear, it'd truly make us unique and I wouldn't need to gather a different set if I just wanted to try a different spec for a while.

If I find time I might try to come up with stats for low-quality geared enhancement and elemental shaman sets, so I can check how much the difference is there (to compare scaling)

tukez · 09/21/08, 5:38 AM

1.0.3
-Elemental Weapons changed to increase FT's spellpower by 10/20/30%, not the final damage.
-Static Shock now increases LS charges by 2/4/6.
-Madness of the Betrayer changed to increase armor penetration rating by 42.
-Fixed resistance formula. This change should now result in slightly less spell damage.
-Lvl 80 as separate exe, define LVL80 when compiling.
-In EnhSimGui, you need to specify the executable instead of directory.

enhsim - Google Code

I hope I remembered all the level 80 stuff. Sorry about the slow pace of development, I've been busy with school.

Btw, those info box warnings in GUI are not correct with lvl 80.

Pitbuller · 09/21/08, 6:08 AM

If you check lootrank and 80lvl loots you will see that elemental gear prbolem is 70lvl stuff not 80lvl. Our t7 is muich better than elemental brothers. It's even better than rogue set. Our ap scaling is ridiculous good. 0.65dps per ap. It's almoust double as good that it is now. I'm not against spell damage weapons becouse those are good. But spell damage gear isn't so hot at 80lvl. You all must remember that ratings value drop almoust half when sim updates to 80lvl. This give ap gear even bigger lead. At 70lvl only spellpower best slot items are [Pendant of Sunfire] and [Loop of Forged Power]. Both these are crafterd so no lootdrama conflicted. I really scare that Blizz fix would only cause nerf to some spell damage component. Our class is fine now.
On the other hand now our best slot items include 6 mail and only 2 leather. All these are pure melee gear.

Originally Posted by Malan

Its rather discouraging to see [Gauntlets of the Ancient Shadowmoon] worth more according to the sim than [Grips of Damnation]

It's not fair to compare BT and Sunwell items.

First 80lvl ep values. I edited bestDpsBuild.txt config to match reality at started gear. I reduced all ratings and percent from gear. Dps/ap dropped but dps still went little up. Hit > agi > crit > exp. Cap spell hit and stack agi after that.

EP                        value     DPS       total DPS      difference

baseline                                      3646.36
ap                        1         0.52      3802.02        155.66
crit rating               1.91      0.99      3745.30        98.94
hit rating                2.78      1.44      3790.52        144.16
expertise rating          1.66      0.86      3716.00        69.63
haste rating              1.20      0.63      3771.39        125.03
armor penetration rating  0.52      0.27      3669.51        23.14
spellpower                1.19      0.62      3832.03        185.67
strength                  1.10
agility                   2.00
intelligence              1.30

With these values spellpower gear can't match agi/ap gear.

Ep values at wowhead.(gem hit to spell cap if you use these values.)

Hothgor · 09/21/08, 1:57 PM

Originally Posted by Pitbuller

If you check lootrank and 80lvl loots you will see that elemental gear prbolem is 70lvl stuff not 80lvl. Our t7 is muich better than elemental brothers. It's even better than rogue set. Our ap scaling is ridiculous good. 0.65dps per ap. It's almoust double as good that it is now. I'm not against spell damage weapons becouse those are good. But spell damage gear isn't so hot at 80lvl. You all must remember that ratings value drop almoust half when sim updates to 80lvl. This give ap gear even bigger lead. At 70lvl only spellpower best slot items are [Pendant of Sunfire] and [Loop of Forged Power]. Both these are crafterd so no lootdrama conflicted. I really scare that Blizz fix would only cause nerf to some spell damage component. Our class is fine now.
On the other hand now our best slot items include 6 mail and only 2 leather. All these are pure melee gear.

It's not fair to compare BT and Sunwell items.

On my test, I was comparing level 80 blue Melee gear with level 80 blue spell gear. They clearly do similar damage to each other. Level 80 ep values should be different than level 70 ones, right?

tukez · 09/21/08, 3:53 PM

1.0.6
-Fixed uptime statistics minor bug.
-Removed set bonus Skyshatter Harness. Added set bonuses Skyshatter Harness(2), Skyshatter Harness(4), Skyshatter Regalia(2), Skyshatter Regalia(4), Naxx Melee(2), Naxx Melee(4), Naxx Nuker(2) and Naxx Nuker(4).
-Added trinkets Fury of the Five Flights, Grim Troll, Loatheb's Shadow and Mirror of Truth.
-Fixed GUI bug: GUI wasn't saving/loading the enhsim.exe path correctly.

enhsim - Google Code

4 piece set bonuses include 2 piece set bonus.
Trinkets are modeled like their lvl 70 counterparts.

Pitbuller · 09/21/08, 6:17 PM

Originally Posted by Hothgor

On my test, I was comparing level 80 blue Melee gear with level 80 blue spell gear. They clearly do similar damage to each other. Level 80 ep values should be different than level 70 ones, right?

You tested without raid buffs. You tested in buggy PTR(this is huge). I tested with optimal condition with sim. You tested couple dozen minute. I runned sim 25000h. Level 70 ep and level 80 ep values is clearly different becouse rating drops. Both values are in this thread. You can easily say if simulator do something wrong. But I can't say how scientific your test was. At 70lvl there wasn't any optimized gear to these mechanic but at 80lvl there is. Those 80lvl ep values what I posted show clearly that melee gear is strictly better at 80lvl. I know those values aren't perfect but those are best we have now. In game testing is good for testing how mechanic work but in game test isn't very good to test dps. In best scenario someone test how mechanic work and then someone add that to sim. Then sim work just like real game but it can produce lot more numbers. If we wanna know how we do good dps we want lot of those numbers. You scored 2200dps in your test but we want to know how to do 4000dps. It's good that there is in-game testers but actual numbers isn't interesting. Maybe if you re-produce least 15minute test with all raid buffs when ptr is stable enough and all our skills work there. Then those numbers can actual tell about gearing for raiding.