EnhSim, DPS simulator - Page 41

Canopener · 12/13/08, 6:08 PM

Originally Posted by Pitbuller

New wf glyph will boost singe wield wf damage about 15.4-20%. This is about ~2% dps increase. Math behind these numbes are simple. After all haste effect with slower than 1.5s weapon we actual proc chance is 16.666% and with that glyph it's 20%. If main hand hit faster than 1.5s then numbers are 14.44% and 16.66%.
0.2 / 0.1666... = 1.2
0.16666... / 0.1444... = 1.1538

Then if wf damage is about 10-15% total damage this give about ~2% damage increase. Increased wf hits also give some benefit to damage I can guess this is around +1%. Much better that before.

Are you sure this is correct? As it was stated in the 'bible', not all attacks can proc WF, and not all misses could have been a potential WF proc. Just because we get 80% of our 20% proc rate now with a slow 1 handed weapon, doesn't mean we will get 80% of our 25% proc rate in the next patch, right?

Of course if it does work out to a 20% proc rate, that tells me they have no plans to ever take WF off the CD, as it will essentially have the 20% stated proc rate we should have been getting all along.

Sado · 12/13/08, 8:02 PM

Is there any data from the sim to support whether the Totem of Splintering or the Totem of Dueling is better?

Rouncer · 12/13/08, 11:35 PM

Originally Posted by Sado

Is there any data from the sim to support whether the Totem of Splintering or the Totem of Dueling is better?

They are in the sim, run it and see.

Splintering is a PoS btw, even with the new glyph it's still a PoS.

Wait for the new PvP ones, even the Blue is better then any of our current options (I think - but it's close enough that if you don't have Dueling you won't miss it).

Otoswrath · 12/14/08, 9:34 AM

comparing angry dread from noth 25, to the stray from 10man trash. Both used in the OH i'm getting a 29dps increase in favor of the stray even though the decline in stats and a difference of only 0.1 weapon speed. My question is what exactly is it about that 0.1 speed that makes up so much in favor of this weapon?

Tramana · 12/14/08, 12:21 PM

Enhsim really seems to prefer matched weapon speeds.

For example I ran the sim with my stats, with 2.5/2.6, 2.6/2.6, 2.7/2.6 weapon speeds with wf/ft and mongoose/mongoose.
2.5/2.6: 4067.60 dps
2.6/2.6: 4137.82 dps
2.7/2.6: 4106.80 dps

Looking into the breakdown to find the source of the dps increase, and it appears to be a higher flurry uptime.
2.5/2.6: 84.90%
2.6/2.6: 91.89%
2.7/2.6: 85.05%

Is this something that other people see with their stats? Is it a real mechanic, or a bug in the sim?

Vesham · 12/14/08, 12:26 PM

Originally Posted by Otoswrath

comparing angry dread from noth 25, to the stray from 10man trash. Both used in the OH i'm getting a 29dps increase in favor of the stray even though the decline in stats and a difference of only 0.1 weapon speed. My question is what exactly is it about that 0.1 speed that makes up so much in favor of this weapon?

There's no way I could see that happening unless you forgot to change the dps of the Angry Dread to 156.6 (as compared to The Stray's 143.5). The stats on each weapon are about equal, but Angry Dread has a clear advantage in terms of dps and weapon damage range.

Atren · 12/14/08, 1:05 PM

Originally Posted by Tramana

Enhsim really seems to prefer matched weapon speeds.

For example I ran the sim with my stats, with 2.5/2.6, 2.6/2.6, 2.7/2.6 weapon speeds with wf/ft and mongoose/mongoose.
2.5/2.6: 4067.60 dps
2.6/2.6: 4137.82 dps
2.7/2.6: 4106.80 dps

Looking into the breakdown to find the source of the dps increase, and it appears to be a higher flurry uptime.
2.5/2.6: 84.90%
2.6/2.6: 91.89%
2.7/2.6: 85.05%

Is this something that other people see with their stats? Is it a real mechanic, or a bug in the sim?

It is flurry mechanics i believe. With equal speed unless you get parries flurry gives you 4 hasted attacks instead of 3.

Rouncer · 12/14/08, 3:24 PM

Originally Posted by Atren

It is flurry mechanics i believe. With equal speed unless you get parries flurry gives you 4 hasted attacks instead of 3.

Except I thought that was disproved a long time back?

Atren · 12/14/08, 3:58 PM

Originally Posted by Rounced

Except I thought that was disproved a long time back?

If it was i missed it. Anyways, consensus was it was more complicated than what i wrote if i recall right.

Otoswrath · 12/14/08, 4:42 PM

definitely changing the dps when I change the weapon speeds which is why I am so confused and thought it might a bug, I checked the rest of the damage brake down and it seemed that for some reason the sim with the slower OH had more white damage it also had more SS and WF damage even after about 5 runs which confused me because angry dread has a higher min/max damage so SS should be larger and OH speed shouldn't affect MH wf's as far as I know

mofunz · 12/14/08, 5:09 PM

Im getting a similar problem to some others who have an issue with the expertise cap. My version appears to be capped at 181. I haven't changed boss dodge values at all.

I've deleted the entire folder and rar file (aside from my exported configuration from Shock&Awe which I saved as config_new, if that makes any difference), and re-downloaded. Im definitely using the enhsim.exe path which leads to the newest version of the file, created Monday, December 08, 2008, 9:08:10 PM.

Any idea what I'm doing wrong?

Tramana · 12/14/08, 6:22 PM

It would be interesting to look at the old research on the flurry subject. It appears there is something real with the flurry uptime differences.

I got some low level weapons from the auction house that have no meaningful stats and auto-attacked for 30 minutes on the grandmaster's training dummy.

sim: 2.7/2.7 63% flurry uptime
live: 2.7/2.7 61% flurry uptime

sim: 2.8/2.7 52% flurry uptime
live: 2.8/2.7 56% flurry uptime

One thing I noticed is that enhsim seems to start the weapons in phase, and they stay there if they have the same speed. On live they start out about half a swing out of phase, but eventually get in phase and once they get in phase, they stay in phase. They got in-phase after several minutes on the combat dummy.

I think in-phase weapons would have higher up-time because flurry would proc/fade on both weapons at the same time, so you have more swings with the flurry buff.

I saved a combat log that shows when they first get in phase, and how flurry interacts.

12/14 13:41:05.760  SWING_DAMAGE,"Tramana",0x511,"Grandmaster's Training Dummy",0x10a28,222,221,1,0,0,0,nil,nil,nil
12/14 13:41:05.993  SWING_DAMAGE,"Tramana",0x511,"Grandmaster's Training Dummy",0x10a28,449,448,1,0,0,0,nil,nil,nil
12/14 13:41:07.526  SPELL_AURA_REMOVED,"Tramana",0x511,"Tramana",0x511,16280,"Flurry",0x1,BUFF
12/14 13:41:07.760  SWING_DAMAGE,"Tramana",0x511,"Grandmaster's Training Dummy",0x10a28,467,466,1,0,0,0,1,nil,nil  (crit)
12/14 13:41:08.027  SWING_DAMAGE,"Tramana",0x511,"Grandmaster's Training Dummy",0x10a28,448,447,1,0,0,0,nil,nil,nil
12/14 13:41:08.293  SPELL_AURA_APPLIED,"Tramana",0x511,"Tramana",0x511,16280,"Flurry",0x1,BUFF
12/14 13:41:10.365  SWING_DAMAGE,"Tramana",0x511,"Grandmaster's Training Dummy",0x10a28,467,466,1,0,0,0,1,nil,nil  (crit)
12/14 13:41:10.365  SWING_DAMAGE,"Tramana",0x511,"Grandmaster's Training Dummy",0x10a28,923,922,1,0,0,0,1,nil,nil  (crit)
12/14 13:41:10.644  SPELL_AURA_REFRESH,nil,0x80000000,"Tramana",0x511,16280,"Flurry",0x1,BUFF
12/14 13:41:12.165  SWING_DAMAGE,"Tramana",0x511,"Grandmaster's Training Dummy",0x10a28,221,220,1,0,0,0,nil,nil,nil
12/14 13:41:12.165  SWING_DAMAGE,"Tramana",0x511,"Grandmaster's Training Dummy",0x10a28,448,447,1,0,0,0,nil,nil,nil
12/14 13:41:14.368  SWING_DAMAGE,"Tramana",0x511,"Grandmaster's Training Dummy",0x10a28,453,452,1,0,0,0,nil,nil,nil
12/14 13:41:14.368  SWING_DAMAGE,"Tramana",0x511,"Grandmaster's Training Dummy",0x10a28,464,463,1,0,0,0,1,nil,nil  (crit)
12/14 13:41:16.367  SWING_MISSED,"Tramana",0x511,"Grandmaster's Training Dummy",0x10a28,MISS
12/14 13:41:16.367  SWING_DAMAGE,"Tramana",0x511,"Grandmaster's Training Dummy",0x10a28,462,461,1,0,0,0,nil,nil,nil
12/14 13:41:18.201  SWING_DAMAGE,"Tramana",0x511,"Grandmaster's Training Dummy",0x10a28,465,464,1,0,0,0,nil,nil,nil
12/14 13:41:18.201  SWING_MISSED,"Tramana",0x511,"Grandmaster's Training Dummy",0x10a28,DODGE
12/14 13:41:20.400  SPELL_AURA_REMOVED,"Tramana",0x511,"Tramana",0x511,16280,"Flurry",0x1,BUFF

Every time I stop, and restart combat my weapons start out of phase. It seems like enhsim should do the same, or else it will overvalue matched weapon speed configurations.

Otoswrath · 12/14/08, 7:05 PM

good work this is what I was wondering, you said it took you a few minutes to get 'in phase' this would mean that for any real boss fight, especially non static ones you're very unlikely to get in phase and the amount of flurry uptime difference made by having such a small difference in weapon speed would be negligible at best?

kristaps · 12/15/08, 12:22 AM

While many people test out different weapon speeds, I was wondering what is the best weapon setup as of now. Calamity's Grasp in main hand, of course, but Angry Dread or Sinister Revenge in offhand? I tried running the enhSim, and it gave slightly higher more dps with the Sinister Revenge, what did you guys get?

Malan · 12/15/08, 2:25 AM

The LootRank export string is screwing up the ArmorPen value everytime I export it.

http://www.lootrank.com/wow/wr.asp?Cla=64&Str=1.10&mh=1.89&dps=5.88&mp5=0.00&mcr=1.89&odps=2.58&spd=1.00&Agi=1.77&mhit=2.53&Int=1.47&Spi=0.00&map=1.00&arp=1.20&Exp=2.78

That string is somehow translating ArmorPen into some crazy values like 84.000000 when I view it in Lootrank.

• Zyla · 12/15/08, 3:12 AM

Originally Posted by kristaps

While many people test out different weapon speeds, I was wondering what is the best weapon setup as of now. Calamity's Grasp in main hand, of course, but Angry Dread or Sinister Revenge in offhand? I tried running the enhSim, and it gave slightly higher more dps with the Sinister Revenge, what did you guys get?

I'm actually getting The Stray as the optimal offhand, which seems to be solely because of the sim using a 4 charge if synced model for Flurry. If this has been disproven, then the sim needs to be changed because it is outputting about a 60-70 dps change at the high end as a bonus purely for syncing the speed.

I tried to create a workaround to get the actual dps for the linked weapons by causing them to desync by making the mainhand speed 2.5999999~, which places Sinister Revenge first with Angry Dread second and The Stray about 25dps behind total.

Fake Edit:

I decided to try to finagle a 100% flurry uptime by just giving myself 100% crit (6.22% haste)

Results were :

2.6/2.6 : 6239.30 dps
2.6/2.5 : 6220 dps
2.6/1.8 : 6191 dps

Same dps (171.4/143.7)

Additional Testing, changing the variable dps to match the items
2.6/2.6(143.7dps) = 6240
2.6/2.5(156.6dps) = 6239
2.6/1.8(171.1dps) = 6231

Interesting stuff, and I can't seem to isolate why it matters that much, whether it's a bug in the sim or something else, it appears to be unrelated to flurry if its bugged or not.

Clarification edit: I was too lazy to change the stat values of the items beyond what was already on The Stray, so higher other stats based on your EP values will also increase dps.

The gist seems to be that none of the three are bad choices but they're all roughly equal.

Perty · 12/15/08, 3:31 AM

Currently unable to run the sim on my laptop for some reason, but I'd imagine that [Last Laugh] is superior dps due to being 1.6spd (even with the obvious tank stats). Has anyone with a working sim tried the calamity / laugh combo?

Many thanks for the sim and all the work put into enh theorycraft, it has saved me oodles of time lately.

Tramana · 12/15/08, 3:53 AM

Originally Posted by Zyla

I decided to try to finagle a 100% flurry uptime by just giving myself 100% crit (6.22% haste)

100% crit isn't enough to get 100% flurry uptime because of misses, glancing blows and dodges. I got 96.97% uptime with 100% crit, and unmatched weapon speeds while matched weapon speeds gave me a 98.99% uptime.

A better way to see if there is a matched weapon speed effect without flurry is to give 0 talent points to flurry.

5/5 flurry
2.6/2.5 4131.52 dps
2.6/2.6 4172.81 dps
2.6/2.7 4143.24 dps

0/5 flurry
2.6/2.5 3662.65 dps
2.6/2.6 3670.32 dps
2.6/2.7 3676.42 dps

It sure seems like most of the effect is from flurry. Could you try it again without flurry with your stats?

• Zyla · 12/15/08, 4:08 AM

Originally Posted by Perty

Currently unable to run the sim on my laptop for some reason, but I'd imagine that [Last Laugh] is superior dps due to being 1.6spd (even with the obvious tank stats). Has anyone with a working sim tried the calamity / laugh combo?

Many thanks for the sim and all the work put into enh theorycraft, it has saved me oodles of time lately.

Actually, it's even worse using the same 100% crit model as before.

I get 6181.5 dps for that weapon's dps and speed. Of course, it will be less than this because it lacks the dps stats as well.

I think the bottom line on that one is that it's bad. Just completely bad. The amount you gain in flametongue does not make up for less from stormstrike and lash.

edit: ran thru a comparison of the weapons using my stats, 100% crit rate and 0% miss/dodge/glancing, to assure full flurry uptime, and eliminate modeling "noise". Again, using the other stats of the stray.

The Stray: 7048
Angry Dread: 7074
Sinister Revenge: 7097
Mythical 171.1 dps 2.6 speed fist: 7102

This type of test seems kind of stupid and inaccurate for other reasons, but I can't really articulate why or anything.

kristaps · 12/15/08, 4:20 AM

So your point being is that all 3 offhands (Stray, Angry Dead and Sinister Revenge) are of the same quality and I shouldn't bother getting others if I have Angry Dead now (using it as main hand now though, waiting on Calamity's Grasp)?

• Zyla · 12/15/08, 4:26 AM

Well, if the last test I did has any sort of significance, it appears that Sinister Revenge is best in slot, by a small margin. If you have AD, you're pretty set, although you might want to grab SR if the rogues don't mind.

kristaps · 12/15/08, 4:38 AM

Originally Posted by Zyla

Well, if the last test I did has any sort of significance, it appears that Sinister Revenge is best in slot, by a small margin. If you have AD, you're pretty set, although you might want to grab SR if the rogues don't mind.

Well, we have like 2 rogues, one of them is still a trial, and both of them are interested in Calamity's Grasp ^^ Thanks for your help.

On a side note - I made the best gear list I could find (chardev.org v4 - A World of Warcraft character planner - template #106684), but I don't trust my character development skills that much (regarding expertise cap - planning to eat 40expertise rating food). Anyone has some advices on it or has his own, better gear wishlist?

Malan · 12/15/08, 9:15 AM

Originally Posted by kristaps

Well, we have like 2 rogues, one of them is still a trial, and both of them are interested in Calamity's Grasp ^^ Thanks for your help.

Seeing as Sinister Revenge is a fast dagger that you'd use in the OH, and Calamity's Grasp is a slow MH, I'm not really sure how that matters.

Stolf · 12/15/08, 4:56 PM

I must say, great job everyone of you with all these calculations and stuff

Anyway, one thing is bothering me, and it is that, isn't a fast weapon "better" than a slow weapon with equal dps/stats and whatever? Since, doesn't the faster weapon procc Static shock and flurry more often because it swings faster? (I'm kinda new to this so correct my flaws, might've missed something etc.) Would be glad with a response!
Keep up the good work, cheers!

-/stolf

Skiace · 12/15/08, 5:25 PM

Originally Posted by Stolf

I must say, great job everyone of you with all these calculations and stuff

Anyway, one thing is bothering me, and it is that, isn't a fast weapon "better" than a slow weapon with equal dps/stats and whatever? Since, doesn't the faster weapon procc Static shock and flurry more often because it swings faster? (I'm kinda new to this so correct my flaws, might've missed something etc.) Would be glad with a response!
Keep up the good work, cheers!

-/stolf

Faster weapons:
-increased static shock procs
-better FT scaling

Slower weapons:
-higher SS/WF/LL damage
-higher flurry uptime (because SS/WF proc but don't consume flurry)
-more MW procs (ppm mechanic interaction with yellow attacks)

All else being equal, slow is better.