EnhSim, DPS simulator - Page 46

Rouncer · 01/05/09, 4:08 PM

Originally Posted by ncervantes

Can you link sim's that brought you to this conclusion?

nope.

Those are an ordering based on my stats and inputting the weapons into the Sim. If you want to waste some time feel free to armory me, replace the boots with [Boots of the Great Construct] stick an accurate monarch in the slot and enchant them with Icewalker and run the Sim for yourself.

Offhands have a lot of issues with modeling for BiS since Lava Lash likes slow weapons and Flametongue likes them fast with lots of haste, so the results are really going to be very dependent on the rest of your stats and especially on whether or not you are using 4pc T7-Melee.

ncervantes · 01/05/09, 4:26 PM

Originally Posted by Rounced

nope.

Those are an ordering based on my stats and inputting the weapons into the Sim. If you want to waste some time feel free to armory me, replace the boots with [Boots of the Great Construct] stick an accurate monarch in the slot and enchant them with Icewalker and run the Sim for yourself.

Offhands have a lot of issues with modeling for BiS since Lava Lash likes slow weapons and Flametongue likes them fast with lots of haste, so the results are really going to be very dependent on the rest of your stats and especially on whether or not you are using 4pc T7-Melee.

Well I just played around with my characters stats and if my sim is correct I get the following.

Webbed Death > Sinister Revenge = Angry Dread > Hand of Nerub

Rouncer · 01/05/09, 5:27 PM

Originally Posted by ncervantes

Well I just played around with my characters stats and if my sim is correct I get the following.

Webbed Death > Sinister Revenge = Angry Dread > Hand of Nerub

My only question is, did you use 1083 as the spellpower value or 1357?

The value that should be in the Sim is 1083, since 1357 is including flametongue on the offhand.

From a cursory look at your Armory profile you actually should have Angry Dread much higher in that list since you aren't running with 4pc T7, so that's 5% less of the haste that Flametongue weapon benefits from but that Lava Lash derives no benefit from.

ncervantes · 01/05/09, 5:47 PM

Originally Posted by Rounced

My only question is, did you use 1083 as the spellpower value or 1357?

The value that should be in the Sim is 1083, since 1357 is including flametongue on the offhand.

From a cursory look at your Armory profile you actually should have Angry Dread much higher in that list since you aren't running with 4pc T7, so that's 5% less of the haste that Flametongue weapon benefits from but that Lava Lash derives no benefit from.

I thought I had fixed that but obviously I didn't. You are correct. I just reran the sim (with Anarchy) and received the following. Does that look better to you?

Angry Dread > Sinister Revenge >Webbed Death > Anarchy > Hand of Nerub

Another question, are you seeing Stonebreaker's totem siming higher than the totem of splintering?

Malan · 01/05/09, 5:50 PM

Originally Posted by Rounced

The value that should be in the Sim is 1083, since 1357 is including flametongue on the offhand.

Are you certain that the sim is adding flametongue spell power for you? Tukez has always said that you should report exactly what's on your character sheet, and that would include the bonus spell damage from flametongue. I'd expect that you're short changing yourself if you aren't using it in your spellpower total.

bobxii · 01/05/09, 5:55 PM

Originally Posted by Rounced

Windfury

No, windfury doesn't count towards WHITE MH PPM.

The reason FT/FT fast/fast is winning is simple: spells hit for full damage (plus spell damage buffs) and physical doesn't because it suffers reduction from boss armor. In other words, 100% of the stat increase from gear applies to spell damage, but only xyz% (armor reduction) applies to physical damage; spell will win out eventually.

Bargle · 01/05/09, 5:59 PM

Originally Posted by Rounced

You added in the imbues.

You changed the stats to allow for the weapon difference but you then added the additional spellpower for the Flametongue imbues.

Click off ALL imbues and then copy the paper doll stats since the Sim will add the spellpower from Flametongue imbue when you select that option on the "Procs and Stuff" panel.

Fixing your Spellpower brings it to a 1131 with CG+WD and 1120 with WDx2 then running the exact same setting through the sim gives

CG+WD=5611

and

WDx2=5595

Which still makes it an issue since WD gets better as you add more haste. But since they are changing WF glyph next patch it will push the balance right back into WF's favor and move the issue off the table for now.

After subtracting the FT imbue bonus spellpower and the 2% spell crit per FT imbue, I'm still getting 5686 DPS for CG+WD and 5690*** DPS for dual WDs, but that's a pretty negligible difference.

Originally Posted by Rounced

Webbed Death > Sinister Revenge = Hand of Nerub > Angry Dread

This is the same order I'm coming up with, minus the Hand of Nerub as I haven't simmed it.

***Edit: The sim doesn't add the additional 2% spell crit from having a second glyphed flametongue imbue active. After manually adding 2% crit, dual WDs sims out at 5740 DPS, a 50 DPS increase over CG+WD.

Rouncer · 01/05/09, 6:00 PM

Originally Posted by ncervantes

I thought I had fixed that but obviously I didn't. You are correct. I just reran the sim (with Anarchy) and received the follow. Does that look better to you?

Angry Dread > Sinister Revenge >Webbed Death > Anarchy > Hand of Nerub

Pretty much, although I am a little surprised by Anarchy beating Hand of Nerub.

What you are seeing is Lava Lash getting more use out of the slower speed of Angry Dread then Flametongue can get out of the faster swing time of the other weapons. When you get 4pc T7 it flips everything around, basically, and then Flametongue gets more from the faster swing timer then Lava Lash loses.

This is why a definitive list isn't really possible at this time. Unless they change Flametongue so that the coefficient scales with weapon speed there will always be this 3rd order interaction complicating the situation.

ncervantes · 01/05/09, 6:07 PM

Originally Posted by Rounced

Pretty much, although I am a little surprised by Anarchy beating Hand of Nerub.

What you are seeing is Lava Lash getting more use out of the slower speed of Angry Dread then Flametongue can get out of the faster swing time of the other weapons. When you get 4pc T7 it flips everything around, basically, and then Flametongue gets more from the faster swing timer then Lava Lash loses.

This is why a definitive list isn't really possible at this time. Unless they change Flametongue so that the coefficient scales with weapon speed there will always be this 3rd order interaction complicating the situation.

That makes sense. I'll run this again if I ever decide to go with 4pc T7-Melee. Thanks again.

Rouncer · 01/05/09, 6:21 PM

Originally Posted by Malan

Are you certain that the sim is adding flametongue spell power for you? Tukez has always said that you should report exactly what's on your character sheet, and that would include the bonus spell damage from flametongue. I'd expect that you're short changing yourself if you aren't using it in your spellpower total.

Nah, when you select Flametongue imbue it adds the spellpower for you. Simple check, plug in your stats and then select WF/WF and run an hour. Then select WF/FT and run another hour, then select FT/FT and run one more hour.

Now compare the Earth Shock damage between the 3 samples and you will see the spellpower being added and then stacked with the Flametongue imbues.

Originally Posted by bobxii

No, windfury doesn't count towards WHITE MH PPM.

The reason FT/FT fast/fast is winning is simple: spells hit for full damage (plus spell damage buffs) and physical doesn't because it suffers reduction from boss armor. In other words, 100% of the stat increase from gear applies to spell damage, but only xyz% (armor reduction) applies to physical damage; spell will win out eventually.

No, it was winning because he made a simple mistake when he entered his stats. It is close but that has nothing to do with armor penetration or anything like that, it's that close because Blizzard in their infinite wisdom made the coefficient for flametongue static so it scales incredibly well with haste and fast weapons.

Even so with the fastest decent weapon available (I'm not simming out a [Librarian's Paper Cutter] on general principles) it is just barely equaling windfury on the best available mainhand. Once the new glyph is available Windfury will blow Flametongue outta the water on the mainhand so the point will become moot for at least the next tier or two of gear.

As for "Windfury doesn't count towards the white MH ppm" maybe you should do your research better. Windfury hits count as instant attacks and can proc everything including Maelstrom Weapon charges.

Originally Posted by ncervantes

That makes sense. I'll run this again if I ever decide to go with 4pc T7-Melee. Thanks again.

You're welcome. By the way, grab 4pc T7 as soon as you can. It's about a 170dps increase, according to the sim, since it is basically the equivalent of adding roughly 148 haste rating (5% haste = 164 haste rating with 90% uptime = 148).

bobxii · 01/05/09, 6:51 PM

As for "Windfury doesn't count towards the white MH ppm" maybe you should do your research better. Windfury hits count as instant attacks and can proc everything including Maelstrom Weapon charges.

That is obvious, but it does not count as white PPM in the sim. That is what I was talking about, as is entirely obvious from the topic we were discussing. If it did, he would be looking at 100+ PPM.

Rouncer · 01/05/09, 7:16 PM

Originally Posted by bobxii

That is obvious, but it does not count as white PPM in the sim. That is what I was talking about, as is entirely obvious from the topic we were discussing. If it did, he would be looking at 100+ PPM.

Obviously I must be an idiot then cause it obviously wasn't obvious to me what you are attempting to show with your "chart".

Could you be a little more clear on what you think you have found that is a flaw or an error in the sim?

Malan · 01/05/09, 11:43 PM

Originally Posted by Rounced

Nah, when you select Flametongue imbue it adds the spellpower for you. Simple check, plug in your stats and then select WF/WF and run an hour. Then select WF/FT and run another hour, then select FT/FT and run one more hour.

Now compare the Earth Shock damage between the 3 samples and you will see the spellpower being added and then stacked with the Flametongue imbues.

That flies contrary to how the sim works for everything else then and Tukez probably ought to clarify it somewhere.

Rouncer · 01/06/09, 1:20 AM

Originally Posted by Malan

That flies contrary to how the sim works for everything else then and Tukez probably ought to clarify it somewhere.

Not really, would you expect to copy your paperdoll stats with a flask and buffs active? The imbues are the same thing. Otherwise if you were to change weapons to Flametongue or to Windfury you would have to manually recalculate the spellpower changes each time.

Levva · 01/06/09, 6:11 AM

I was thinking that we should start a new thread for the sole purpose of evaluating the results of OH weapons, this would keep the sim thread cleaner and give a reference point for OH weapon choices.

The default config file I started with was the one suggested a couple of posts before mine as an Enh Shammy with a "perfect" set. Sadly my own gear is not as good as that yet. I then modified it to include the Naxx 4 bonus as Rounced had pointed out. What I was hoping to do was a methodical test

1) start with a default base config file with an agreed set of stats

2) list the weapons and have an agreed variance about how much each stat in the sim config needs changed

3) run the sim with ONLY those agreed changes for each weapon

This should give decent base figures for each weapon for evaluation purposes. From that we can then look at the effects of subsiduary changes eg: using different glyphs for a fast vs a slow weapon.

As new weapons are added we can evaluate them on the same basis. Of course individuals may see different results as they will have lesser gear than the optimised base config. However if we use an agreed base config we have a methodology to work with to come up with solid numbers for theorycrafting.

Originally Posted by Rounced

Not really, would you expect to copy your paperdoll stats with a flask and buffs active? The imbues are the same thing. Otherwise if you were to change weapons to Flametongue or to Windfury you would have to manually recalculate the spellpower changes each time.

I can confirm that ShockAndAwe when exporting should warn you if you still have weapon imbues active when you export, as I had assumed that you should copy the paper doll stats with NO buffs (other than Heroic Presence - Draenei buff you can't right click to get rid of).

ziff · 01/06/09, 6:43 AM

Originally Posted by Malan

That flies contrary to how the sim works for everything else then and Tukez probably ought to clarify it somewhere.

Looking at the code for 1.5.0, in EnhSimConfig.cpp, EnhSimConfig::setMhWeaponEnchant line 961

    else if (mh_weapon_enchant_ == "flametongue") {
      enhsims_[i]->useEffect(enhsims_[i]->mh_flametongue_);
      if (once) {
        spellpower_ += FLAMETONGUE_BONUS_SPELLPOWER;
      }
    }

Where FLAMETONGUE_BONUS_SPELLPOWER is set to 211 in Level80.h. The same block of code exists in EnhSimConfig::setOhWeaponEnchant in the same file.

Seems pretty clear to me that the sim is automatically adding in the bonus from Flametongue, but I didn't step through the code running in a debugger so I can't be totally positive.

Artoxia · 01/06/09, 7:14 AM

i hit more than 341 hit so i ran the sim to see how much hit is still worth.

my first Result was:

EP                        value     DPS       total DPS      difference

baseline                                      3574.77
ap                        1.00      0.36      3646.29        71.52
crit rating               2.25      0.80      3598.87        24.10
hit rating                3.45      1.23      3611.75        36.98
expertise rating          0.79      0.28      3584.02        9.25
haste rating              1.73      0.62      3593.30        18.53
armor penetration rating  1.46      0.52      3590.39        15.62

i was wondering if this is correct so i changed mit hit % in the config file from 11.xx % to 15% and ran the sim again. this is the result:

EP                        value     DPS       total DPS      difference

baseline                                      3657.32
ap                        1.00      0.36      3730.13        72.82
crit rating               2.08      0.76      3680.05        22.73
hit rating                3.33      1.21      3693.68        36.36
expertise rating          0.76      0.28      3666.44        9.13
haste rating              1.71      0.62      3676.01        18.69

Did you guys get to the same result that hit is (after spell hit cap) still the the stat with the highest ep vlue?

SentinelBorg · 01/06/09, 10:40 AM

Originally Posted by Rounced

Which still makes it an issue since WD gets better as you add more haste. But since they are changing WF glyph next patch it will push the balance right back into WF's favor and move the issue off the table for now.

That and two other changes could end this issue once and for all:

- WF cooldown scaling with melee haste.
- FT completely scaling with weapon speed, with a 10% spelldamage coefficient at a weapon speed of 2.5 seconds.

And I agree, we should have another thread for the OH topic. Actualy there are multiple topics rolled into this thread. I think, this thread should only concentrate on the usage and improvement of the tool, not on the discussion of its results.

Originally Posted by Artoxia

Did you guys get to the same result that hit is (after spell hit cap) still the the stat with the highest ep vlue?

No, it dropped down from 3.1 to around 1.6 for me.

Levva · 01/06/09, 12:09 PM

There are quite a few subtle changes in patch 3.0.8 I noted for example a change on of Judgement of Wisdom changing from chance of 1% max mana to chance of 2% base mana, that is a nerf. We have 4396 base mana so JoW will now give fixed 88 mana per proc. This is equivalent to someone who had only 8800 mana a pathetically low figure. So we are going from around 110-120 JoW mana per proc to 88.

Paenor · 01/06/09, 7:12 PM

Ugh, OK well sorry if this post is a little sloppy, I just wrote out a novel and accidentally lost it as I went to preview the post before submitting it. I wanted to post this a day or two ago, but the delay between registering and posting delayed that. So I'm not really in high spirits to write it all out again.

Now then, on the topic of Webbed Death being the best offhand, a week or two ago I simulated a bunch of offhands myself, and came to the same conclusion. However, since then I've refined my process, and though I little out of the box and came up with something much more interesting.

As a prefix to these results. They were all calculated with the same gear, spec, gems, glyphs. Keep in mind that the glyphs I currently have are Windfury, Flametongue, and Stormstrike. I started by taking off my weapons and input my stats without them. I then went and adding the stats for the weapons in myself by hand. Yes, I remembered to calculates stats make and the effect of ap on spellpower.

Additionally, my gear isn't overly good. Up until this week I haven't really done any 25man content. I do however have pretty much everything you would want from 10man raiding. Unfortunately, as I did all the tests with the same setup up, some combination do fall below the spell hit cap. However, it doesn't really change the end result of what I'm trying to show. So bear with me.

I'll write some notes before each log, and summaries the results below if you don't care about the logs themselves.

Vanilla 'best'
[Calamity's Grasp]/WF & [Angry Dread]/FT 4881.16dps

MH:
miss                6795090        11.09%
dodge               919525         1.50%
glancing            15320141       25.00%
hit                 8261107        13.48%
crit                29991914       48.94%

MH Windfury:
procs/hits          15.21%
procs/swings        13.53%
miss                0              0.00%
dodge               287765         1.50%
hit                 9638347        50.34%
crit                9219888        48.16%

MH Storsmtrike:
miss                0              0.00%
dodge               142224         1.50%
hit                 4780729        50.37%
crit                4568173        48.13%

OH:
miss                7062433        11.08%
dodge               955548         1.50%
glancing            15940362       25.01%
hit                 8576355        13.45%
crit                31207534       48.96%

OH Flametongue:
miss                611092         0.80%
hit                 43406970       56.72%
crit                32511588       42.48%

OH Stormstrike:
miss                0              0.00%
dodge               140458         1.50%
hit                 4701739        50.29%
crit                4506705        48.21%

Earth Shock:
miss                102293         0.80%
hit                 7260217        56.72%
crit                5436780        42.48%

Lava Lash:
miss                0              0.00%
dodge               176701         1.50%
hit                 5899806        50.11%
crit                5697149        48.39%

Lightning Bolt:
miss                96727          0.80%
hit                 6887951        56.73%
crit                5157457        42.48%

Lightning Shield:
miss                82803          0.80%
hit                 10301236       99.20%
crit                0              0.00%

Maelstrom Weapon:
PPM                 44.89

flurry uptime                  89.52%
unleashed rage uptime          0.00%
elemental devastation uptime   76.76%
elemental oath uptime          0.00%

mh enchant uptime              34.55%
oh enchant uptime              30.68%
trinket1 uptime                20.53%
trinket2 uptime                18.03%
totem uptime                   47.14%
set bonus uptime               0.00%
metagem uptime                 0.00%

                    MRPS without overregen
mana regen          0.00      0.00%
mp5                 16.76     13.94%
replenishment       35.15     29.23%
unrelenting storm   0.00      0.00%
judgement of wisdom 28.06     23.34%
shamanistic rage    40.27     33.49%
mana potion         0.00      0.00%
misc potion         0.00      0.00%

                    DPS                 PPM       MPS
white               1551.53   31.79%    83.35
windfury            627.69    12.86%    6.38
flametongue         496.25    10.17%    51.02
stormstrike         267.92    5.49%     6.33      34.86     26.41%
lava lash           151.04    3.09%     7.85      15.74     11.92%
searing totem       298.37    6.11%     1.00      4.82      3.65%
earth shock         566.74    11.61%    8.53      30.51     23.11%
lightning bolt      743.16    15.23%    8.09      46.07     34.90%
lightning shield    178.47    3.66%     0.77      0.00      0.00%

DPS                 4881.16
MPS                 132.01
MP2min              15840.76
MRPS                139.02
Out of mana time    0.08%

elapsed simulation time: 25000.00h
elapsed real time: 90.47s
simulation speed: 994826x

Next, the recent 'proposed best'. I realise I had stated earlier that Webbed Death came out ahead of Angry Dread, but that was using my gear from a week or two ago. Since then I had replaced a fair amount of hit rating, and I suspect that is the major difference. Luckily, this isn't really what I'm trying to prove anyways, so it doesn't much matter.
[Calamity's Grasp]/WF & [Webbed Death]/FT 4860.64dps

MH:
miss                6836320        11.22%
dodge               914908         1.50%
glancing            15229615       25.00%
hit                 8224680        13.50%
crit                29715523       48.78%

MH Windfury:
procs/hits          15.25%
procs/swings        13.54%
miss                0              0.00%
dodge               286225         1.50%
hit                 9625068        50.50%
crit                9149141        48.00%

MH Storsmtrike:
miss                0              0.00%
dodge               141822         1.50%
hit                 4771435        50.48%
crit                4537990        48.01%

OH:
miss                12765703       11.21%
dodge               1706407        1.50%
glancing            28459387       25.00%
hit                 15322060       13.46%
crit                55587652       48.83%

OH Flametongue:
miss                1106565        0.92%
hit                 67899454       56.48%
crit                51217862       42.60%

OH Stormstrike:
miss                0              0.00%
dodge               139120         1.49%
hit                 4691158        50.39%
crit                4479147        48.11%

Earth Shock:
miss                118620         0.92%
hit                 7269872        56.47%
crit                5485547        42.61%

Lava Lash:
miss                0              0.00%
dodge               178190         1.50%
hit                 5959049        50.23%
crit                5725428        48.26%

Lightning Bolt:
miss                105815         0.92%
hit                 6496977        56.51%
crit                4894156        42.57%

Lightning Shield:
miss                116087         0.92%
hit                 12565008       99.08%
crit                0              0.00%

Maelstrom Weapon:
PPM                 42.18

flurry uptime                  87.33%
unleashed rage uptime          0.00%
elemental devastation uptime   75.99%
elemental oath uptime          0.00%

mh enchant uptime              34.43%
oh enchant uptime              25.95%
trinket1 uptime                20.87%
trinket2 uptime                18.81%
totem uptime                   47.39%
set bonus uptime               0.00%
metagem uptime                 0.00%

                    MRPS without overregen
mana regen          0.00      0.00%
mp5                 16.81     14.02%
replenishment       35.26     29.41%
unrelenting storm   0.00      0.00%
judgement of wisdom 29.60     24.69%
shamanistic rage    38.21     31.88%
mana potion         0.00      0.00%
misc potion         0.00      0.00%

                    DPS                 PPM       MPS
white               1540.71   31.7%     116.51
windfury            623.85    12.83%    6.35
flametongue         624.34    12.84%    80.15
stormstrike         229.30    4.72%     6.30      34.72     26.74%
lava lash           85.05     1.75%     7.91      15.94     12.28%
searing totem       292.26    6.01%     1.00      4.83      3.72%
earth shock         561.74    11.56%    8.58      30.71     23.66%
lightning bolt      689.63    14.19%    7.66      43.64     33.61%
lightning shield    213.76    4.4%      0.94      0.00      0.00%

DPS                 4860.64
MPS                 129.83
MP2min              15579.92
MRPS                134.09
Out of mana time    0.07%

elapsed simulation time: 25000.00h
elapsed real time: 103.22s
simulation speed: 871940x

Ok, here is where things get a bit interesting. I thought that if we were trying to maximize flametongue damage through weapon speed. Why not just go all out with it and see what happens?
Remember to keep in mind i'm still using the Windfury Glyph in this test even though it does me no good!
[Torch of Holy Fire]/FT & [Webbed Death]/FT 5032.07dps

MH:
miss                9884476        11.21%
dodge               1324895        1.50%
glancing            22030512       24.99%
hit                 13160042       14.93%
crit                41743051       47.36%

MH Flametongue:
miss                793046         0.92%
hit                 47378679       54.97%
crit                38019837       44.11%

MH Storsmtrike:
miss                0              0.00%
dodge               140705         1.50%
hit                 4883475        51.96%
crit                4374482        46.54%

OH:
miss                12725280       11.21%
dodge               1703966        1.50%
glancing            28394010       25.00%
hit                 16962031       14.94%
crit                53771349       47.35%

OH Flametongue:
miss                1106742        0.92%
hit                 66117594       54.97%
crit                53056815       44.11%

OH Stormstrike:
miss                0              0.00%
dodge               139763         1.51%
hit                 4801561        51.86%
crit                4316633        46.63%

Earth Shock:
miss                119952         0.92%
hit                 7165713        54.96%
crit                5752566        44.12%

Lava Lash:
miss                0              0.00%
dodge               182666         1.50%
hit                 6314589        51.68%
crit                5720978        46.82%

Lightning Bolt:
miss                92252          0.92%
hit                 5518550        54.96%
crit                4430227        44.12%

Lightning Shield:
miss                119113         0.92%
hit                 12869673       99.08%
crit                0              0.00%

Maelstrom Weapon:
PPM                 35.94

flurry uptime                  84.69%
unleashed rage uptime          0.00%
elemental devastation uptime   75.57%
elemental oath uptime          0.00%

mh enchant uptime              23.35%
oh enchant uptime              26.01%
trinket1 uptime                20.91%
trinket2 uptime                18.83%
totem uptime                   47.99%
set bonus uptime               0.00%
metagem uptime                 0.00%

                    MRPS without overregen
mana regen          0.00      0.00%
mp5                 19.92     19.61%
replenishment       35.79     35.23%
unrelenting storm   0.00      0.00%
judgement of wisdom 30.46     29.98%
shamanistic rage    15.42     15.18%
mana potion         0.00      0.00%
misc potion         0.00      0.00%

                    DPS                 PPM       MPS
white               1367.91   27.18%    134.47
flametongue         1371.70   27.26%    137.65
stormstrike         151.90    3.02%     6.27      34.52     27.73%
lava lash           85.00     1.69%     8.15      16.45     13.21%
searing totem       376.65    7.49%     1.00      4.83      3.88%
earth shock         670.68    13.33%    8.69      30.66     24.63%
lightning bolt      745.07    14.81%    6.69      38.02     30.54%
lightning shield    263.15    5.23%     0.96      0.00      0.00%

DPS                 5032.07
MPS                 124.49
MP2min              14938.61
MRPS                103.91
Out of mana time    0.02%

elapsed simulation time: 25000.00h
elapsed real time: 107.27s
simulation speed: 839043x

Well then, we should probably check to see if it's just the torch that is giving us that huge boost.
[Torch of Holy Fire]/FT & [Angry Dread]/FT 4870.93dps

MH:
miss                9688635        11.09%
dodge               1311894        1.50%
glancing            21839892       25.00%
hit                 13899140       15.91%
crit                40607093       46.49%

MH Flametongue:
miss                684424         0.80%
hit                 46607854       54.42%
crit                38359852       44.79%

MH Storsmtrike:
miss                0              0.00%
dodge               142609         1.51%
hit                 4980297        52.71%
crit                4325708        45.78%

OH:
miss                6943263        11.08%
dodge               938876         1.50%
glancing            15657857       25.00%
hit                 9974172        15.92%
crit                29126094       46.50%

OH Flametongue:
miss                607611         0.80%
hit                 41295767       54.41%
crit                33987362       44.78%

OH Stormstrike:
miss                0              0.00%
dodge               139473         1.50%
hit                 4905892        52.72%
crit                4260640        45.78%

Earth Shock:
miss                104031         0.80%
hit                 7060311        54.43%
crit                5807978        44.77%

Lava Lash:
miss                0              0.00%
dodge               181718         1.50%
hit                 6379367        52.51%
crit                5586718        45.99%

Lightning Bolt:
miss                84999          0.80%
hit                 5774986        54.41%
crit                4753464        44.79%

Lightning Shield:
miss                83910          0.79%
hit                 10478827       99.21%
crit                0              0.00%

Maelstrom Weapon:
PPM                 38.20

flurry uptime                  84.96%
unleashed rage uptime          0.00%
elemental devastation uptime   77.08%
elemental oath uptime          0.00%

mh enchant uptime              0.00%
oh enchant uptime              0.00%
trinket1 uptime                20.58%
trinket2 uptime                17.99%
totem uptime                   47.79%
set bonus uptime               0.00%
metagem uptime                 0.00%

                    MRPS without overregen
mana regen          0.00      0.00%
mp5                 19.87     18.03%
replenishment       35.64     32.34%
unrelenting storm   0.00      0.00%
judgement of wisdom 28.98     26.30%
shamanistic rage    25.70     23.33%
mana potion         0.00      0.00%
misc potion         0.00      0.00%

                    DPS                 PPM       MPS
white               1330.32   27.31%    99.99
flametongue         1168.94   24%       107.70
stormstrike         185.70    3.81%     6.30      34.71     27.56%
lava lash           148.62    3.05%     8.10      16.18     12.85%
searing totem       373.79    7.67%     1.00      4.83      3.83%
earth shock         666.29    13.68%    8.65      30.17     23.96%
lightning bolt      784.81    16.11%    7.08      40.05     31.80%
lightning shield    212.46    4.36%     0.78      0.00      0.00%

DPS                 4870.93
MPS                 125.93
MP2min              15112.03
MRPS                115.28
Out of mana time    0.04%

elapsed simulation time: 25000.00h
elapsed real time: 88.89s
simulation speed: 1012487x

Finally, I had simulated what Rounced just joked about, I snickered when I came back today and saw he mentioned it....
[Torch of Holy Fire]/FT & [Librarian's Paper Cutter]FT 4954.04dps

MH:
miss                10545094       11.86%
dodge               1334601        1.50%
glancing            22236353       25.01%
hit                 13286951       14.94%
crit                41511014       46.69%

MH Flametongue:
miss                1344626        1.56%
hit                 46647025       54.05%
crit                38304212       44.39%

MH Storsmtrike:
miss                0              0.00%
dodge               141530         1.51%
hit                 4940564        52.54%
crit                4320981        45.95%

OH:
miss                14618399       11.86%
dodge               1849576        1.50%
glancing            30820292       25.00%
hit                 18413585       14.94%
crit                57566427       46.70%

OH Flametongue:
miss                1997180        1.56%
hit                 69179274       54.05%
crit                56820110       44.39%

OH Stormstrike:
miss                0              0.00%
dodge               138839         1.50%
hit                 4867564        52.56%
crit                4255142        45.94%

Earth Shock:
miss                203503         1.56%
hit                 7059111        54.06%
crit                5794236        44.38%

Lava Lash:
miss                0              0.00%
dodge               183474         1.50%
hit                 6413201        52.32%
crit                5660353        46.18%

Lightning Bolt:
miss                155371         1.56%
hit                 5402450        54.08%
crit                4432323        44.37%

Lightning Shield:
miss                209452         1.56%
hit                 13203640       98.44%
crit                0              0.00%

Maelstrom Weapon:
PPM                 35.74

flurry uptime                  83.91%
unleashed rage uptime          0.00%
elemental devastation uptime   75.74%
elemental oath uptime          0.00%

mh enchant uptime              23.22%
oh enchant uptime              25.44%
trinket1 uptime                20.95%
trinket2 uptime                18.91%
totem uptime                   47.84%
set bonus uptime               0.00%
metagem uptime                 0.00%

                    MRPS without overregen
mana regen          0.00      0.00%
mp5                 19.93     19.76%
replenishment       35.76     35.45%
unrelenting storm   0.00      0.00%
judgement of wisdom 30.42     30.15%
shamanistic rage    14.76     14.64%
mana potion         0.00      0.00%
misc potion         0.00      0.00%

                    DPS                 PPM       MPS
white               1318.56   26.62%    141.45
flametongue         1387.12   28%       142.86
stormstrike         143.50    2.9%      6.27      34.54     27.80%
lava lash           73.84     1.49%     8.17      16.49     13.27%
searing totem       370.79    7.48%     1.00      4.83      3.89%
earth shock         663.36    13.39%    8.70      30.61     24.64%
lightning bolt      730.05    14.74%    6.66      37.79     30.41%
lightning shield    266.81    5.39%     0.99      0.00      0.00%

DPS                 4954.04
MPS                 124.25
MP2min              14910.54
MRPS                102.81
Out of mana time    0.02%

elapsed simulation time: 25000.00h
elapsed real time: 119.30s
simulation speed: 754425x

So, what are the final results?

[Calamity's Grasp]/WF & [Angry Dread]/FT 4881.16dps
[Calamity's Grasp]/WF & [Webbed Death]/FT 4860.64dps
[Torch of Holy Fire]/FT & [Webbed Death]/FT 5032.07dps
[Torch of Holy Fire]/FT & [Angry Dread]/FT 4870.93dps
[Torch of Holy Fire]/FT & [Librarian's Paper Cutter]/FT 4954.04dps

Oh dear. A BoE blue the second best offhand? Well hold on now! If you noticed from the simulations I actually have almost a 1.6 miss rate with spells using the Librarian's Paper Cutter. With some poking around with my stats (hit rating mostly) you can actually get it's dps higher than Webbed Death. As my gear isn't that good, it is actually quite possible that it IS the best offhand for you!

However, this is just theorycrafting. How about some real numbers?

Initial testing with a target dummy seems to confirm my tests. Additionally, last night to finish off 10man Naxx I threw mongoose on a [Blade of Dormant Memories] to replace my normal [Kel'Thuzad's Reach], to use along side my [Pride]. There was a noticeable DPS increase. Especially on Loatheb where flametongue did nearly 40% of my total damage.
Now I could upload a WWS for you guys if you really want, however I'm not sure how much it would prove to you. I started the instance without maxed dagger weapon skill (about 370), and it didn't get maxed out until after all of Plague wing, and Anub/Grand Widow. Additionally, it was only Spider/Plague wings and KT, and as I don't have a good data set from a previous week to compare it to. Furthermore, I didn't use consumables, and for all you know I might do 5600dps on Loatheb and 3500dps on Grand Window with my 10man gear normally. So really, I urge other people who actually have better gear than I to actually try it yourself and post your data.

Now between losing the post, and having to delay posting this i've forgotten what else I had to say. So i'll just post it in a list as it comes to me:
-As Rounced said, next patch the Windfury Glyph is getting a make over. However, i'm not so sure it will make up for the dps gap. Remember, that if I were to respec, switch my Windfury Glyph to Lightning Shield, and regem/enchant the gap becomes much larger.
-Hit rating becomes more important with these weapons and setup with so much damage coming from flametongue. With Heroism I got my mainhand down to attacking at 0.86 speed. With my average crit on a Flametongue at 950, missing can add up fast and hit you pretty hard.
-Threat might become something you have to watch. When literally 80% of your damage is coming from magic sources, spirit weapons doesn't help that much.

Gartixxar · 01/06/09, 8:53 PM

This question was answered in a earlier post.

Shammando · 01/06/09, 11:34 PM

I'm having trouble getting EnhSim to work properly. Perhaps something in my config is wrong but I've scoured it for a couple hours and run it over and over and never break 1500dps in simulation. Here is my config log, as well as the corresponding sim results and EP value results. Ty for any help. Note I'm including the full config as perhaps something above my inputted stats is off.

simulation_time                 100000
simulation_time_combatlog       30
combat_length                   3
report_count                    80
threads                         2
min_lag                         0
max_lag                         0
simulate_mana                   0

ep_precision                    2
ep_base_stat                    ap
ep_ap                           64
ep_crit_rating                  46
ep_hit_rating                   10
ep_expertise                    4
ep_haste_rating                 33
ep_armor_penetration_rating     15
ep_spellpower                   28
ep_dps                          10.0
ep_mana                         200
ep_spirit                       100
ep_mp5                          20

mh_auto_attack                  1
oh_auto_attack                  1
wait_ss_with_wf_cd              0
cast_ll_only_if_wf_on_cd        0
bloodlust_casters               2
sync_bloodlust_with_trinkets    0
cast_lvb_only_if_ed_left        15
cast_lvb_only_if_fsdots_left    4
cast_lvb_only_if_fs_active      1
cast_fs_only_if_dots_left       0
cast_ls_only_if_charges_left    0
cast_sr_only_if_mana_left       700
use_mana_potion_if_mana_left    3000

rotation_priority_count         5
rotation_priority1              MW5_LB
rotation_priority2              SS
rotation_priority3              ES
rotation_priority4              LL
rotation_priority5              LS

miss                            9.00
dodge                           6.50
glancing                        25.00
armor                           10850
spell_miss                      17.00
nature_resistance               0
fire_resistance                 0
frost_resistance                0
arcane_resistance               0
shadow_resistance               0

armor_debuff_major              3925/3925
armor_debuff_minor              1260/1260
physical_vulnerability_debuff   2.0/2.0
melee_haste_buff                20.0/20.0
melee_crit_chance_buff          5.0/5.0
attack_power_buff_flat          688/688
attack_power_buff_multiplier    0/99.7
spell_haste_buff                5.0/5.0
spell_crit_chance_buff          5.0/5.0
spell_crit_chance_debuff        10.0/10.0
spell_damage_debuff             13.0/13.0
spellpower_buff                 280/280
spell_hit_chance_debuff         3.0/3.0
haste_buff                      3.0/3.0
percentage_damage_increase      3.0/3.0
crit_chance_debuff              3.0/3.0
stat_multiplier                 10.0/10.0
stat_add_buff                   52/52
agi_and_strength_buff           178/178
intellect_buff                  60/60

replenishment                   1
water_shield                    0
mana_spring_totem               1
blessing_of_wisdom              0
judgement_of_wisdom             1


flask_elixir                    flask_of_endless_rage
guardian_elixir                 -
potion                          runic_mana_potion
food                            -
misc_item                       -

###############################################################################
### Everything in the section below can be replaced by information obtained ###
### from your paper doll stats or exported by the ShockAndAwe addon         ###
###############################################################################

race                            tauren
mh_speed                        2.6
oh_speed                        2.5
mh_dps                          156.5
oh_dps                          143.5
mh_crit                         26.70
oh_crit                         26.70
mh_hit                          10.73
oh_hit                          10.73
mh_expertise_rating             214
oh_expertise_rating             214
ap                              3331
haste                           5.03
armor_penetration               0.0
str                             135
agi                             801
int                             434
spi                             155
spellpower                      999
spell_crit                      18.98
spell_hit                       13.42
max_mana                        10626
mp5                             90

mh_imbue                        windfury
oh_imbue                        flametongue

mh_enchant                      berserking
oh_enchant                      mongoose

mh_weapon                       -
oh_weapon                       -

trinket1                        mirror_of_truth
trinket2                        darkmoon_card_greatness

totem                           stonebreakers_totem

set_bonus                       naxx_melee_4

metagem                         relentless_earthsiege_diamond

glyph_major1                    lightning_shield
glyph_major2                    stormstrike
glyph_major3                    windfury_weapon

glyph_minor1                    -
glyph_minor2                    -
glyph_minor3                    -

ancestral_knowledge             2/5
improved_shields                1/3
mental_dexterity                3/3
shamanistic_focus               1/1
flurry                          5/5
elemental_weapons               3/3
unleashed_rage                  5/5
weapon_mastery                  3/3
dual_wield_specialization       3/3
mental_quickness                3/3
improved_stormstrike            2/2
static_shock                    3/3
maelstrom_weapon                5/5

convection                      0/5
concussion                      5/5
call_of_flame                   2/3
elemental_devastation           3/3
reverberation                   0/5
elemental_focus                 1/1
elemental_fury                  5/5
call_of_thunder                 0/1
unrelenting_storm               0/5
elemental_precision             0/3
lightning_mastery               0/5
elemental_oath                  0/2
lightning_overload              0/5
lava_flows                      0/3
storm_earth_and_fire            0/5

Simulation output from said config file (using lv80, not ele):

MH:
miss                194896         13.37%
dodge               29250          2.01%
glancing            364663         25.01%
hit                 274808         18.85%
crit                594163         40.76%

MH Windfury:
procs/hits          16.78%
procs/swings        14.62%
miss                0              0.00%
dodge               10528          2.01%
hit                 303665         57.96%
crit                209709         40.03%

MH Storsmtrike:
miss                0              0.00%
dodge               6750           2.02%
hit                 193046         57.82%
crit                134072         40.16%

OH:
miss                379174         13.34%
dodge               56818          2.00%
glancing            710540         24.99%
hit                 537326         18.90%
crit                1159129        40.77%

OH Flametongue:
miss                104386         3.24%
hit                 2282286        70.87%
crit                833743         25.89%

OH Stormstrike:
miss                0              0.00%
dodge               6685           2.04%
hit                 188720         57.69%
crit                131713         40.26%

Earth Shock:
miss                5217           3.20%
hit                 115610         70.85%
crit                42359          25.96%

Flame Shock:
miss                11432          3.23%
hit                 250259         70.74%
crit                92076          26.03%
dots                854769.00

Lava Burst:
miss                10781          3.26%
hit                 0              0.00%
crit                319492         96.74%

Lava Lash:
miss                0              0.00%
dodge               10077          2.00%
hit                 291397         57.92%
crit                201590         40.07%

Lightning Shield:
miss                11774          3.29%
hit                 345765         96.71%
crit                0              0.00%

Maelstrom Weapon:
PPM                 27.51

flurry uptime                  81.66%
unleashed rage uptime          99.88%
elemental devastation uptime   90.98%
elemental oath uptime          0.00%

mh enchant uptime              26.61%
oh enchant uptime              21.91%
trinket1 uptime                30.99%
trinket2 uptime                38.66%
totem uptime                   47.17%
set bonus uptime               95.01%
metagem uptime                 0.00%

                    MRPS without overregen
mana regen          0.82      1.09%
mp5                 16.90     22.54%
replenishment       23.47     31.32%
unrelenting storm   0.00      0.00%
judgement of wisdom 0.00      0.00%
shamanistic rage    33.76     45.05%
mana potion         0.00      0.00%
misc potion         0.00      0.00%

                    DPS                 PPM       MPS
white               332.47    22.81%    71.68
windfury            168.05    11.53%    4.37
flametongue         212.81    14.6%     53.67
stormstrike         73.09     5.02%     5.56      30.66     32.13%
lava lash           29.13     2%        8.38      15.95     16.72%
earth shock         83.08     5.7%      2.72      10.25     10.74%
flame shock         139.27    9.56%     5.90      2.56      2.68%
lava burst          347.05    23.81%    5.50      35.99     37.72%
lightning shield    72.53     4.98%     0.66      0.00      0.00%

DPS                 1457.49
MPS                 95.41
MP2min              11449.42
MRPS                75.41
Out of mana time    3.81%

elapsed simulation time: 1000.00h
elapsed real time: 5.47s
simulation speed: 658375x

EP values:

EP                        value     DPS       total DPS      difference

baseline                                      1457.94
ap                        1.00      0.30      1517.42        59.48
crit rating               0.75      0.22      1464.64        6.70
hit rating                2.21      0.66      1477.63        19.70
expertise rating          1.28      0.38      1470.38        12.45
haste rating              0.94      0.28      1466.29        8.35
armor penetration rating  0.60      0.18      1463.28        5.34
spellpower                1.04      0.31      1504.34        46.40
mh dps                    4.91      1.46      1468.89        10.95
oh dps                    1.87      0.56      1462.12        4.18
strength                  1.00      
agility                   1.27      
intelligence              1.52      
spirit                    0.04      0.01      1459.75        1.81
mana                      0.03      0.01      1460.17        2.23
mp5                       1.21      0.36      1465.11        7.18

foolish_fool · 01/07/09, 12:11 AM

Originally Posted by Shammando

lava burst          347.05    23.81%    5.50      35.99     37.72%

This is likely your problem.

Shammando · 01/07/09, 12:41 AM

Yes, it would appear that is definitely wrong, but Lava burst (LVB) is not in my rotation priority at all. I must be missing something, because I'm not sure why it's simulating that.

Edit: On that note, why is Flameshock in there too as more than ES, it shouldn't be in there at all either.

Tramana · 01/07/09, 2:39 AM

Originally Posted by Paenor

Now I could upload a WWS for you guys if you really want, however I'm not sure how much it would prove to you. I started the instance without maxed dagger weapon skill (about 370), and it didn't get maxed out until after all of Plague wing, and Anub/Grand Widow. Additionally, it was only Spider/Plague wings and KT, and as I don't have a good data set from a previous week to compare it to. Furthermore, I didn't use consumables, and for all you know I might do 5600dps on Loatheb and 3500dps on Grand Window with my 10man gear normally. So really, I urge other people who actually have better gear than I to actually try it yourself and post your data.

I've been experimenting with ft/ft for the past couple weeks after I found out that ft/ft with a fast offhand was a dps increase over what I had earlier.

I also added [Thunder Capacitor] to enhsim so that it would be taken into account when getting my stat weights.

On a related note, I noticed that flametongue doesn't proc 100% of the time when using ft/ft it's more like 80% of the time. When I used different ranks of FT on each weapon the proc rate went back to 100%. Try testing this out on the target dummy yourself to see if you see the same thing.

Using recount to count, and a 1.8/1.4 ft/ft I hit the level 60 target dummy 100 times wiith my daggers. Flametongue Attack hit 80 times. When I switch to ft(rank 9)/ft(rank 10) I got 100 hits with my dagger and 100 hits with Flametongue. I'm pretty sure enhsim doesn't model this behavior.

Since my ep weights push me towards spell power, haste, and crit more than the conventional gearing I wonder where I will end up when I have everything best in slot. I wonder how my best in slot gearing will compare to a more conventional best in slot gearing. This would be another case where a working rawr module for exporting to the sim would be invaluable.