EnhSim, DPS simulator - Page 50

Rouncer · 01/21/09, 11:53 AM

Originally Posted by Malan

What else are you doing with those GCDs?

My point wasn't that it isn't a dps increase, my point was that he was making it out like his dps went through the roof due to the new Magma totem and that clearly isn't true.

Vesham · 01/21/09, 2:15 PM

Let me rephrase my post. Would you be able to update the sim to match the current version of the game including Magma totem in the near future?

And as mana intensive as it is, I've had no problems with mana in a raid setting.

Brynmor · 01/21/09, 6:59 PM

Would really like an update to EhnSim with the new versions of glyphs. But for the time being I'll just ask; is there any concensus on if the new WF glyph is better or worse than the old version? My gut is telling me its going to be roughly equivalent if not a little bit better than the old version if you are only MHing WF but not better if you are DWing it. My gut substituting for math at this point as I'm not sure how to work out the numbers around the 3 sec CD.

Also wondering how the new version of Lightning Bolt Glyph, +4% LB dmg stacks up. A cursory glance at some of my past exploits on some WWS reports of my damage spreads plus some napkin math suggests its not all that great but I'd like to get someone else's opinion/numbers as well.

Malan · 01/21/09, 7:15 PM

Your gut is totally wrong. The new glyph is definitely superior especially if you were DWing WF.

Brynmor · 01/21/09, 7:36 PM

Heh, I must be hungry. I didn't think that would be the case because when I was DWing WF I almost always had the CD up. Oh well, thats why I asked.

Edit: Not saying I don't believe you but whats the reasoning behind that? Just would like to know why I'm wrong and what my gut was apparently missing.

Rouncer · 01/21/09, 7:50 PM

Originally Posted by Malan

Your gut is totally wrong. The new glyph is definitely superior especially if you were DWing WF.

Actually Malan you are wrong on this one. When dual wielding the glyph is garbage, it only becomes amazing when used on a single weapon.

Reason for this is that when Dual Wielding you have a 36% chance for a proc on every single hit which means you have a ~54% chance for a proc on every Stormstrike. Even before the new windfury totem I was getting procs every 4.7seconds on average during raid situations and with the addition of all that haste, and with a new offhand attack that can proc windfuries, you will be riding the cooldown with or without the glyph.

If you are level 80 and still using WF/WF you are better off using a different glyph (and getting a clue but that is something for another discussion).

Malan · 01/22/09, 12:46 AM

Originally Posted by Rounced

Reason for this is that when Dual Wielding you have a 36% chance for a proc on every single hit which means you have a ~54% chance for a proc on every Stormstrike.

And you're wrong as well - you have that chance on every hit outside the cooldown, not every single hit as you stated. I would additionally posit that adding another 5% when using SS is pretty significant since we believe that the MH gets to roll first on the WF proc.

Atren · 01/22/09, 1:59 AM

I am with Malan concerning dual WF, especially as I stated same when the glyph was first introduced. Only question is however, what will dual WF proc rate be? I think best for sim would to give players option to overwrite both 1h and DW WF proc rates

Rouncer · 01/22/09, 3:18 AM

Originally Posted by Atren

I am with Malan concerning dual WF, especially as I stated same when the glyph was first introduced. Only question is however, what will dual WF proc rate be? I think best for sim would to give players option to overwrite both 1h and DW WF proc rates

Well Chalos agrees with you so you must be right.

Hopefully the sim will be updated to incorporate the new glyph and the other changes soon and then we can see what's what. But I have to say that I seriously doubt you will see WF/WF compete with WF/FT due to the new glyph.

Running the current Sim for WF/WF with matched Weapon speeds (to increase the likelihod of mainhand procs) and you get a proc every 4.78 seconds. With 4Naxx_melee, Flurry, WF Totem and 6% haste (which is about the lowest you can end up without gimping your gear) you have dropped your weapons down to 1.5 speed which means you are averaging 1 additional hit following the cooldown, do you really think the 5% is going to significantly increase that?

Trying unmatched weapons using a 2.6 and a 2.5 should increase the proc rate. According to the sim we go from a 12.55PPM to a 13.09PPM or a proc every 4.6 seconds. True, we lose about 50dps in the process from the increased incidence of offhand procs.

It also definitely would not be best for the sim to give players the option to overwrite anything. Start testing, figure out the proc chance outside of the cooldown with the glyph and report back so that it can be incorporated into the Sim. Just allowing people to stick random numbers into the Sim helps nobody. Having a sim with the right numbers helps everybody.

(if you aren't sure how to properly test the new proc rate with the glyph one simple way is just to use Lava Lash. Grab 2 weapons and imbue them both with WF, stand sideways to a level 60 targeting dummy so that autoattack is blocked and then use Lava Lash on every cooldown for awhile. After about 1000 of them determine your proc rate, should give very accurate results.)

Atren · 01/22/09, 3:49 AM

I never stated WF/WF would beat WF/FT and unless i read wrong neither did Malan. Gap should be smaller altough. Point was the glyph improves dual WF damage opposed to many claiming it is negative.

• Zyla · 01/22/09, 4:19 AM

This is a pretty retarded argument. Of course it improves wf/wf, which no one uses. The fact of the matter is that it is a much bigger buff for WF/FT, which you should be using anyway.

You're arguing to be right about something that is completely irrelevant.

Atren · 01/22/09, 5:24 AM

Ok, I guess I need to be more precise.

In overall damage WF/FT will remain king most likely. Concerning the WF glyph it should offer bigger dps increase to WF/WF than to WF/FT probably however. Resulting gap between those two configuration to lessen.

tukez · 01/22/09, 8:47 AM

What's the coef and interval on Magma totem? Eg. Searing totem interval is ~2.5s, not 2.0s.

If no one has any other info, I will put 4.8% crit reduction for white and 1.8% crit reduction for yellow attacks. Not gonna put any reduction for spells, because I don't have any info on them.

Rouncer · 01/22/09, 8:52 AM

Originally Posted by tukez

What's the coef and interval on Magma totem? Eg. Searing totem interval is ~2.5s, not 2.0s.

If no one has any other info, I will put 4.8% crit reduction for white and 1.8% crit reduction for yellow attacks. Not gonna put any reduction for spells, because I don't have any info on them.

Magma Totem is 2 second intervals with a 100% (10% per tick) coefficient.

Searing Totem is an 8% coefficient per attack and a 2.2 second casting time.

For those actually reading the entire thread, yes, I was wrong about Magma totem. Tested a bit last night and the fact that I was using wrathstrike in the parse boosted searing almost to the same damage as magma but in actual encounters using magma will be a significant source of dps provided you can sustain the mana for it.

tukez · 01/22/09, 9:53 AM

Originally Posted by Rounced

Magma Totem is 2 second intervals with a 100% (10% per tick) coefficient.

Searing Totem is an 8% coefficient per attack and a 2.2 second casting time.

Searing totem interval is actually ~2.5s, even you can see the casting time as 2.2s. Doesn't this kind of "lag" affect Magma totem at all?

And I think Searing totems coef is 16.6%.

Rouncer · 01/22/09, 10:44 AM

Originally Posted by tukez

Searing totem interval is actually ~2.5s, even you can see the casting time as 2.2s. Doesn't this kind of "lag" affect Magma totem at all?

And I think Searing totems coef is 16.6%.

I was just going from the info on the wiki which seems to be in need of updating.

I just checked a WWS from a Naxx and Searing is indeed hitting every 2.5 seconds. Magma Totem is hitting every 2 seconds. Coefficient for Searing could be 16% but since I don't have a clear idea of my stats, due to raid buffs, I'm not sure.

One thing that was weird last night from playing with the dummies is that searing doesn't seem to use our spell crit values anymore. Mine was barely critting 5% of the time. Magma totem on the other hand seemed to be using my spell crit since it was critting very often.

19:58'52.359 Rouncer Magma Totem summons Magma Totem VII #1.
19:58'54.984 Magma Totem VII #1 Magma Totem hits Lava Blaze #38 for 389 Fire.
19:58'54.984 Magma Totem VII #1 Magma Totem hits Lava Blaze #36 for 918 Fire. (Critical)
19:58'54.984 Magma Totem VII #1 Magma Totem hits Lava Blaze #35 for 439 Fire.
19:58'55.000 Magma Totem VII #1 Magma Totem hits Sartharion for 439 Fire.
19:58'57.062 Magma Totem VII #1 Magma Totem hits Lava Blaze #39 for 259 Fire.
19:58'57.078 Magma Totem VII #1 Magma Totem hits Lava Blaze #38 for 259 Fire.
19:58'57.078 Magma Totem VII #1 Magma Totem hits Lava Blaze #37 for 259 Fire.
19:58'57.078 Magma Totem VII #1 Magma Totem hits Lava Blaze #36 for 612 Fire. (Critical)
19:58'57.078 Magma Totem VII #1 Magma Totem hits Lava Blaze #35 for 293 Fire.
19:58'57.078 Magma Totem VII #1 Magma Totem hits Sartharion for 612 Fire. (Critical)
19:58'59.140 Magma Totem VII #1 Magma Totem hits Lava Blaze #39 for 259 Fire.
19:58'59.140 Magma Totem VII #1 Magma Totem hits Lava Blaze #38 for 542 Fire. (Critical)
19:58'59.140 Magma Totem VII #1 Magma Totem hits Lava Blaze #37 for 259 Fire.
19:58'59.156 Magma Totem VII #1 Magma Totem hits Lava Blaze #36 for 293 Fire.
19:58'59.156 Magma Totem VII #1 Magma Totem hits Lava Blaze #35 for 550 Fire. (Critical) (26 Resisted)
19:58'59.156 Magma Totem VII #1 Magma Totem hits Sartharion for 234 Fire. (52 Resisted)
19:59'01.031 Magma Totem VII #1 Magma Totem hits Lava Blaze #39 for 259 Fire.
19:59'01.031 Magma Totem VII #1 Magma Totem hits Lava Blaze #38 for 259 Fire.
19:59'01.031 Magma Totem VII #1 Magma Totem hits Lava Blaze #37 for 542 Fire. (Critical)
19:59'01.031 Magma Totem VII #1 Magma Totem hits Lava Blaze #36 for 263 Fire. (26 Resisted)
19:59'01.031 Magma Totem VII #1 Magma Totem hits Lava Blaze #35 for 612 Fire. (Critical)
19:59'01.031 Magma Totem VII #1 Magma Totem hits Sartharion for 612 Fire. (Critical)
19:59'03.015 Magma Totem VII #1 Magma Totem hits Lava Blaze #39 for 542 Fire. (Critical)
19:59'03.015 Magma Totem VII #1 Magma Totem hits Lava Blaze #38 for 433 Fire. (Critical) (52 Resisted)
19:59'03.015 Magma Totem VII #1 Magma Totem hits Lava Blaze #37 for 259 Fire.
19:59'03.031 Magma Totem VII #1 Magma Totem hits Lava Blaze #36 for 612 Fire. (Critical)
19:59'03.031 Magma Totem VII #1 Magma Totem hits Lava Blaze #35 for 293 Fire.
19:59'03.031 Magma Totem VII #1 Magma Totem hits Sartharion for 234 Fire. (52 Resisted)
19:59'05.109 Magma Totem VII #1 Magma Totem hits Lava Blaze #39 for 352 Fire.
19:59'05.109 Magma Totem VII #1 Magma Totem hits Lava Blaze #38 for 352 Fire.
19:59'05.109 Magma Totem VII #1 Magma Totem hits Lava Blaze #37 for 661 Fire. (Critical) (31 Resisted)
19:59'05.109 Magma Totem VII #1 Magma Totem hits Lava Blaze #35 for 734 Fire. (Critical)
19:59'05.125 Magma Totem VII #1 Magma Totem hits Sartharion for 281 Fire. (62 Resisted)
19:59'07.046 Magma Totem VII #1 Magma Totem hits Lava Blaze #39 for 440 Fire.
19:59'07.046 Magma Totem VII #1 Magma Totem hits Lava Blaze #37 for 439 Fire.
19:59'07.046 Magma Totem VII #1 Magma Totem hits Lava Blaze #35 for 439 Fire.
19:59'07.046 Magma Totem VII #1 Magma Totem hits Sartharion for 395 Fire. (39 Resisted)
19:59'09.125 Magma Totem VII #1 Magma Totem hits Lava Blaze #39 for 482 Fire.
19:59'09.125 Magma Totem VII #1 Magma Totem hits Lava Blaze #35 for 482 Fire.
19:59'09.125 Magma Totem VII #1 Magma Totem hits Sartharion for 907 Fire. (Critical) (43 Resisted)
19:59'09.140 Magma Totem VII #1 died.

That's just a short parse from that pre-patch WWS I was looking at, it shows the 2 second intervals pretty clearly.

So I guess that's 3 things that need testing now. The proc rate for the new Windfury glyph when using WF/WF, the coefficient for Searing Totem and whether the crit rate for searing/magma totem is affected by the shaman's spell crit value. I should have some time this afternoon to get those done.

Malan · 01/22/09, 12:31 PM

Originally Posted by Rounced

But I have to say that I seriously doubt you will see WF/WF compete with WF/FT due to the new glyph.

Yah that's definitely not what I was implying at all, just more or less pointing out that for any shaman not yet at the level cap, and therefore probably still running dual WF, that the new glyph would still be an upgrade over the old one.

rastotem · 01/22/09, 2:44 PM

So what glyphs are you all suggesting with this new 1? currently im using the Ap Wf glyph, 8% ss dmg, and lightning shield glyph.

Njald · 01/22/09, 3:55 PM

Do the shock and awe correctly import set bonus if the set items are from different tier? (i.e. 200 and 213 itemlvl)
I can't seem to get it to recognize my items are being of same set when I do the import.

Anyone else having this issue?

SentinelBorg · 01/22/09, 4:14 PM

Originally Posted by Rounced

[...] and whether the crit rate for searing/magma totem is affected by the shaman's spell crit value. I should have some time this afternoon to get those done.

Well, if they didn't change anything, both totems should inherit your spell crit value. Easy to see at Loatheb.

Malan · 01/22/09, 4:43 PM

Originally Posted by Njald

Do the shock and awe correctly import set bonus if the set items are from different tier? (i.e. 200 and 213 itemlvl)
I can't seem to get it to recognize my items are being of same set when I do the import.

Anyone else having this issue?

Shock And Awe doesn't export set bonuses at all, which you probably should realize from the big "THIS IS NOT IMPLEMENTED" warning that it puts in the config.

Rouncer · 01/22/09, 6:08 PM

Did some testing.

Searing Totem 16.7% coefficient per attack
Magma Totem 10% coefficient per attack
WF/WF proc rate is 45.5% per weapon

Naked Parse with 139 spellpower and 2/3 Call of Fire
Wow Web Stats

In normal gear with 1096 spellpower with 2/3 Call of Fire
WWS Loading...

Normal gear, turned sideways, with the glyph - 200 LLs
WWS Loading...

Did a little playing around with Splintering. Looks like it does work as intended but even with a 3.8 speed weapon it's hard to really see much of an effect.

MatsT · 01/22/09, 7:53 PM

Originally Posted by Rounced

WF/WF proc rate is 40.5% per weapon

Old proccrate was 1-(1-0.2)^2 = 0.36

Logic says that the new procrate should be one of:
A: 1-(1-0.2+0.05)^2 = 0.4375
B: 1-(1-0.20)^2+0.05 = 0.41
C: 1-(1-0.2+0.05)*(1-0.2) = 0.4

A seems like the most intuitive way, though with enough data we should be able to say for sure.

Rouncer · 01/22/09, 9:30 PM

Originally Posted by MatsT

A seems like the most intuitive way, though with enough data we should be able to say for sure.

Damn it, I blame a poor educational system for my inability to do simple division.

Thank you to the one who pmed me for being discrete about my lack of math skills.

122 hits + 60 crits = 182 windfury attacks = 91 procs / 200 hits = 45.5% proc rate.

Atren · 01/23/09, 1:58 AM

Proc rate is most likely 25+25*0,75=25+18,75=43,75 or A as you put it. 45,5 is not far from it so it does kinda support that.

Anyways, I think sim could have it (43,75% proc rate if have WF glyph) with option of giving manually proc rate for both WF and Dual WF. That would also allow to do some theorycrafting like for example how big should it be to catch FT