EnhSim, DPS simulator - Page 59

nikoa · 02/20/09, 7:32 PM

Originally Posted by Bellante

I would like to hear from some of the experienced enha raiding shamans that follow these forums: How close is the sim to your actually observed dps? By this I mean your collected experienced dps over weeks of raiding on most "normal" bosses. I realise this kind of question can receive endless remarks and snickers and discussions over "what do you mean by normal", etc., but try to bear with me and tell me your gut feeling and experiences.

On a personal level, I find that the simulator has always overstated my dps. I try to do my rotation/priority list according to what the sim suggests, and it just never reaches that level.

You have to realize that you are human, so you will make mistakes, react a bit slower, lag all those things will make your DPS lower. To me that translates to about 50-150 DPS, and the more movement there is the wider the gap becomes because a) my dps is not continuous b) my attention is diverted c) I am trying to not die.

tukez · 02/20/09, 7:41 PM

I made a new section to EnhSim website for wishes and bugs to help me with the development. I don't always catch the requests for the sim from this thread and often forget about them. From now on, if you have a request or bug to report, please add it to the EnhSim website too.

Dragon-CR · 02/20/09, 8:18 PM

I think it honestly depends on gear level as to how consistent your numbers will be with higher gear levels being more consistent. A lucky or unlucky streak @ 20% melee crit / 15% spell crit in mostly blues is going to affect things like elemental devastation and flurry more, causing wild variations in up times vs 32% melee / 28% spell where even a "bad" streak is still 80%+ uptime for both. Patchwork is obviously the best fight to compare sim vs real world performance.

Personally I don't like to give DPS values for changes, but if you're more than 20% off your sim value on PW and gemmed/enchanted ideally, with ideal consumable buffs, then you probably want to seriously take a look at your priorities and/or rotations and make sure you're using things as soon as they come off CD and keep fire totems up, etc... If you, or the whole raid, seems to have an off night, check raid comp. Did the mage respec arcane and now there's no IS/AC? That can wreak havok with your ED uptime, which in turn might affect flurry uptime. Did they forget a boomkin/SP? Losing 3% hit can have a larger than 3% impact due to missed procs.

If you're within 10% work on tightening timings, you're doing good and likely placing respectively on the charts, but there's still room for improvement.

If you're within 5% of your sim DPS you're doing well, may still need work on priorities and awareness, but you're well within the band where your results may be more at the mercy of the RNG than your playstyle.

The sim isn't perfect unfortunately and there's a few tricks you can do in game to boost your numbers that aren't accounted for, but there's pretty much always room for improvement in your personal game, even if you consistently get the same numbers the sim does.

I would like to add that one of the things that isn't emphasized here enough, esp with as much as we throw around "sim it" is the sim results aren't guaranteed. Every time you hit the attack button with a boss targeted you're rolling the dice. The sim is just a way to coax the RNG to roll in your favor more often than not.

Originally Posted by tukez

I made a new section to EnhSim website for wishes and bugs to help me with the development. I don't always catch the requests for the sim from this thread and often forget about them. From now on, if you have a request or bug to report, please add it to the EnhSim website too.

Wub

Skiace · 02/20/09, 8:56 PM

Originally Posted by Bellante

I would like to hear from some of the experienced enha raiding shamans that follow these forums: How close is the sim to your actually observed dps? By this I mean your collected experienced dps over weeks of raiding on most "normal" bosses. I realise this kind of question can receive endless remarks and snickers and discussions over "what do you mean by normal", etc., but try to bear with me and tell me your gut feeling and experiences.

On a personal level, I find that the simulator has always overstated my dps. I try to do my rotation/priority list according to what the sim suggests, and it just never reaches that level.

The sim obviously represents ideal conditions which you never reach in game. On fights like Patchwerk I've gotten within a couple hundred dps of the sim at times, but that fight is too short to be much of a meter at this point.

HappyDude · 02/20/09, 9:30 PM

Originally Posted by Dragon-CR

Enchant uptimes feel a bit off in the simulator for me, especially compared to what I'm observing in game. Here's an example from a recent run I did with CG/WD both with Berserking and 4pc T7 (100000 hr run):

flurry uptime                  85.14%
unleashed rage uptime          0.00%
elemental devastation uptime   80.77%
elemental oath uptime          0.00%

mh enchant uptime              36.68%
oh enchant uptime              26.71%

They both seem especially low to me considering Berserking lasts 15 seconds without refresh, meaning if it gets its assumed 1PPM, that even with zero haste or other special attacks it should have a theoretical 25% uptime. Granted over time some of those will be back to back or occure while a previous buff is in effect which will serve to lower the overall uptime, but with flurry, WF totem, and other haste effects the PPM should be closer to 1.7, and that's before considering LL and SS. I also realize that the fast speed of WD reduces the procs from SS and LL, but the amount shown here seems a bit extreme.

I know I see berserking up quite a bit, so much that it's more unussual to NOT have at least one buff than it is to have one, and dual berserking buffs is nowhere near uncommon so both of those uptimes feel highly suspect to me from in game observations.

It feels as if the sim isn't taking haste effects into account to boost PPM rate, and is assuming 1PPM at all times plus procs from instant attacks.

Maybe I'm wrong, does anybody know of a mod we can use to track procs? I know we can't tell which weapon the proc came from but a mod could show uptime for 1x buff and 2x buffs.

I've already posted this on the bug page for the simulator, but the PPM for berserking and mongoose seem to be too low. It's using a value of 1.0 rather than 1.2 as expected from The Retribution Paladin Thread (Wrath/3.0) and Proc Mechanics.

However, unlike the OP suggests, haste effects are not thought to increase the effective PPM of autoattacks.

BW~Merlin · 02/20/09, 11:42 PM

When I import my values into enhsim, enhsim tells me that Spell hit + EP range goes past cap and yet when I sim it all up to get EP values it still rates +hit as a high value. I thought because I was going past the cap that it would several penalise +hit and give me a low value for +hit.

here is my config file

#################	//comment marks are # and //
##ENHSIM CONFIG##	//if you write comments on the same line with config line
#################	//leave at least one space between the comment and value


//IMPORTANT: Be careful when inputting your stats. Read is the value rating or percent etc. Read the comments.
//You always input what you see on your character sheet/paper doll.

simulation_time			1000 	//in hours, you can also input decimals ex. 0.05
simulation_time_combatlog	300	//in minutes
combat_length			6	//in minutes
report_count			80 	//how many times the progress is reported during the simulation
threads				2	//number of threads to use, combatlogging always uses 1 thread
min_lag				0	//in milliseconds, lag means ping + player reaction time
max_lag				0	//1000 ms = 1s
simulate_mana			1	//{ 0 | 1 } if disabled, increases speed, but doesn't take mana limitations into account



########### //To understand the EP ranges you have to understand how EP values are calculated. 
#EP RANGES# //For example, to calculate EP value of crit rating, first I simulate the normal "baseline" dps.
########### //Then I simulate dps with increased crit rating. I take the dps difference and divide it by the
//increased crit rating to get dps/crit rating value. EP range means how much crit rating did I increase.

//Watch the expertise and hit caps. For example if expertise goes over the cap resulting from too high EP
//range, the EP value will go lower than it should be. On the other hand, if you give too low EP ranges,
//you won't get accurate results. Best scenario is low EP ranges and high simulation time.

//If hit/spellhit or expertise is already over the cap, test will be skipped. Although you can
//give negative ep range to see how much EP is hit/expertise worth to have. To skip a test, use 0 as range.

//Which stat is used as baseline stat, meaning it gets EP value of 1. This is important when calculating EP values.
ep_precision			2 //how many digits there are in ep value?
ep_base_stat			ap //{ ap | sp }
ep_ap 				200
ep_crit_rating 			30
ep_hit_rating 			30
ep_expertise 			4 //not rating
ep_haste_rating 		30
ep_armor_penetration_rating 	30
ep_spellpower 			150
ep_dps				7.5
ep_mana				250
ep_spirit			150
ep_mp5				20



###################
#ROTATION AND MISC#
###################
mh_auto_attack			1	//{ 0 | 1 }
oh_auto_attack			1	//{ 0 | 1 }
wait_ss_with_wf_cd		0.00	//max seconds to wait to SS, if wf cd is still up
cast_ll_only_if_wf_on_cd	0	//{ 0 | 1 } this is noted only if you have dual wf
bloodlust_casters		2	//{ 0 | 1 | 2 }
sync_bloodlust_with_trinkets	1	//{ 0 | 1 }
cast_lvb_only_if_ed_left	15.0	//cast LvB only if ED duration x or less seconds left
cast_lvb_only_if_fsdots_left	4	//maximum Flame Shock dot ticks left to cast LvB
cast_lvb_only_if_fs_active	1	//{ 0 | 1 }
cast_fs_only_if_dots_left	0	//maximum Flame Shock dot ticks left to cast Flame Shock
cast_ls_only_if_charges_left	0	//maximum Lightning Shield charges left to cast LS
cast_sr_only_if_mana_left	700	//maximum mana left to cast SR
use_mana_potion_if_mana_left	3000	//maximum mana left to use mana potion


//set the rotation priority
//SS = stormstrike
//FS = flame shock
//ES = earth shock
//ES_SS = earth shock only if there are stormstrike charges
//Frost = frost shock
//MW5_LB = maelstrom weapon cast lightning bolt, min 5 charges
//MW3_CL = maelstrom weapon cast chain lightning, min 3 charges
//generic form: MWx_YY, x is 1-5 and YY is either LB or CL
//LS = lightning shield
//LL = lava lash
//LB = lightning bolt
//CL = chain lighting
//LVB = lava burst
//ST = searing totem
//MT = magma totem
//SR = shamanistic rage
rotation_priority_count		7
rotation_priority1		SR
rotation_priority2		LVB
rotation_priority3		FS
rotation_priority4		SS
rotation_priority5		ES
rotation_priority6		LL
rotation_priority7		LS



##########
#BOSS#####
##########
miss				8.00	//%
dodge				6.50	//%
glancing			25.00	//%
armor				13083	
spell_miss			17.00	//%

nature_resistance		0	//effective resistances
fire_resistance			0
frost_resistance		0
arcane_resistance		0
shadow_resistance		0



######### //default value after the buff in comment
#BUFFS### //put to 0 if you dont use that buff
#########
armor_debuff_major		0/3925		//acid spit, expose armor, sunder armor
armor_debuff_minor		0/1260		//faerie fire, sting, curse of recklessness
physical_vulnerability_debuff	0.0/2.0		//%, bloody frenzy, 2nd talent spec TBA
melee_haste_buff		0.0/20.0	//%, improved icy talons, windfury totem
melee_crit_chance_buff		0.0/5.0		//%, leader of the pack, rampage
attack_power_buff_flat		0/688		//battle shout, blessing of might
attack_power_buff_multiplier	0.0/99.7	//BUFF UPTIME %, DISABLES UR, abominations might, trueshot aura, (unleashed rage)
spell_haste_buff		0.0/5.0		//%, wrath of air totem
spell_crit_chance_buff		0.0/5.0		//%, moonkin aura, elemental oath
spell_crit_chance_debuff	0.0/10.0	//%, improved scorch, winter's chill
spell_damage_debuff		0.0/13.0	//%, ebon plaugebearer, earth and moon, curse of elements, totem of wrath
spellpower_buff			0/280		//focus magic, improved divine spirit, flametongue totem, demonic pact
spell_hit_chance_debuff		0.0/3.0		//%, improved faerie fire, misery
haste_buff			0.0/3.0		//%, improved moonkin aura, swift retribution
percentage_damage_increase	0.0/3.0		//%, ferocious inspiration, sanctified retribution
crit_chance_debuff		0.0/3.0		//%, heart of the crusader, totem of wrath
stat_multiplier			0.0/10.0	//%, blessing of kings
stat_add_buff			0/52		//mark of the wild
agi_and_strength_buff		0/178		//strength of earth, horn of winter
intellect_buff			0/60		//arcane intellect, fel intelligence

replenishment			1		//{ 0 | 1 }
water_shield			0		//{ 0 | 1 }
mana_spring_totem		1		//{ 0 | 1 }
blessing_of_wisdom		0		//{ 0 | 1 }
judgement_of_wisdom		0		//{ 0 | 1 }



#############
#CONSUMABLES#
#############//remember that you can use guardian elixir only if you use elixir in the flask_elixir slot

flask_elixir			elixir_of_major_agility
//{ flask_of_relentless_assault | elixir_of_major_agility | fel_strength_elixir |
//  elixir_of_major_strength | elixir_of_demonslaying | elixir_of_the_mongoose |
//  elixir_of_mastery | gurus_elixir | elixir_of_mighty_agility | elixir_of_mighty_strength |
//  elixir_of_expertise | flask_of_endless_rage | - }

guardian_elixir			elixir_of_draenic_wisdom
//{ elixir_of_draenic_wisdom | elixir_of_mighty_thoughts | - }

potion				haste_potion
//{ haste_potion | insane_strength_potion | heroic_potion | super_mana_potion |
//  runic_mana_potion | - }

food				spice_hot_talbuk
//{ roasted_clefthoof | spice_hot_talbuk | ravager_dog | warp_burger | skullfish_soup | 
//  rhinolicious_wyrmsteak | fish_feast | - }

misc_item			drums_of_battle
// { drums_of_battle | - }





###############################################################################
### Everything in the section below can be replaced by information obtained ###
### from your paper doll stats or exported by the ShockAndAwe addon         ###
###############################################################################


##########
#SHAMAN###
##########
race                 tauren
mh_speed             2.60
oh_speed             2.50
mh_dps               143.5
oh_dps               143.6
mh_crit              21.30
oh_crit              21.30
mh_hit               12.81
oh_hit               12.81
mh_expertise_rating  97.00
oh_expertise_rating  97.00
ap                   2947
haste                4.45
armor_penetration    5.26
str                  133
agi                  639
int                  425
spi                  153
spellpower           884
spell_crit           15.46
spell_hit            16.01
max_mana             10491
mp5                  0
mh_imbue             windfury
oh_imbue             flametongue

mh_enchant           -
mh_weapon            -
oh_enchant           -
oh_weapon            -

trinket1             sphere_of_red_dragons_blood
trinket2             mirror_of_truth

totem                totem_of_splintering
set_bonus            - ## not currently available in the addon export
metagem              -

glyph_major1         windfury_weapon
glyph_major2         lava_lash
glyph_major3         stormstrike
glyph_major4         - ## slot empty

glyph_minor1         - ## no useful glyphs current implemented in the sim
glyph_minor2         - ## no useful glyphs current implemented in the sim
glyph_minor3         - ## no useful glyphs current implemented in the sim


#############
## Talents ##
#############
ancestral_knowledge       5/5
improved_shields          3/3
mental_dexterity          3/3
shamanistic_focus         1/1
flurry                    5/5
elemental_weapons         3/3
unleashed_rage            5/5
weapon_mastery            3/3
dual_wield_specialization 3/3
mental_quickness          3/3
improved_stormstrike      0/2
static_shock              3/3
maelstrom_weapon          5/5
convection                2/5
concussion                5/5
call_of_flame             0/3
elemental_devastation     3/3
reverberation             3/5
elemental_focus           0/1
elemental_fury            0/5
call_of_thunder           0/1
unrelenting_storm         0/3
elemental_precision       0/3
lightning_mastery         0/5
elemental_oath            0/2
lightning_overload        0/5
lava_flows                0/3
storm_earth_and_fire      0/3
shamanism                0/5

and here is my output

Spell hit + EP range goes past cap by 0.153641% (4.03032 hit rating).

Calculating EP values...
Calculation 1/14: Baseline DPS calculated.
Calculation 2/14: Attack power calculated.
Calculation 3/14: Crit(physical) calculated.
Calculation 4/14: Crit(spell) calculated.
Calculation 5/14: Hit calculated.
Calculation 6/14: Expertise calculated.
Calculation 7/14: Haste calculated.
Calculation 8/14: Armor Penetration calculated.
Calculation 9/14: Spellpower calculated.
Calculation 10/14: Mh Dps calculated.
Calculation 12/14: Mana skipped.
Calculation 13/14: Spirit skipped.
Calculation 14/14: Mp5 skipped.
Calculation 11/14: Oh Dps calculated.


EP                        value     DPS       total DPS      difference

baseline                                      2200.34
ap                        1.00      0.31      2261.59        61.25
crit rating               1.75      0.54      2216.41        16.06
hit rating                2.44      0.75      2222.80        22.46
expertise rating          2.12      0.65      2221.65        21.31
haste rating              1.24      0.38      2211.74        11.40
armor penetration rating  1.04      0.32      2209.90        9.56
spellpower                1.14      0.35      2252.79        52.44
mh dps                    5.38      1.65      2212.70        12.35
oh dps                    2.87      0.88      2206.93        6.59
strength                  1.00      
agility                   1.67      
intelligence*             1.26      
spirit                    0.00      0.00      0.00           -2200.34
mana                      0.00      0.00      0.00           -2200.34
mp5                       0.00      0.00      0.00           -2200.34

* part of the EP value is missing because of skipped tests.
( Pawn: v1: "EnhSim": Ap=1.00, CritRating=1.75, HitRating=2.44, HasteRating=1.24, ExpertiseRating=2.12, ArmorPenetration=1.04, SpellDamage=1.14, MainHandDps=5.38, OffHandDps=2.87, Strength=1.00, Agility=1.67, Intellect=1.26, Spirit=0.00, Mana=0.00, Mp5=0.00 )
http://www.lootrank.com/wow/wr.asp?Cla=64&Str=1.00&mh=1.24&dps=5.38&mp5=0.00&mcr=1.75&odps=2.87&spd=1.14&Agi=1.67&mhit=2.44&Int=1.26&Spi=0.00&map=1.00&arp=1.04&Exp=2.12

elapsed simulation time: 10999989.00h
elapsed real time: 10658.65s
simulation speed: 3715289x

Bellante · 02/21/09, 4:57 AM

Originally Posted by Dragon-CR

The sim isn't perfect unfortunately and there's a few tricks you can do in game to boost your numbers that aren't accounted for, but there's pretty much always room for improvement in your personal game, even if you consistently get the same numbers the sim does.

The reason I asked was to get some tips along these lines. My dps is within 10% of the sim, so it's not all bad, but I played around with sorting through combat logs from wws, and noticed that alot of high dps shamans do NOT break off from using stormstrike and earth shock to get a lightning bolt up at 5 MW stacks, which to me seemed counterintuitive. However, it turns out they seem to get their cooldowns used alot more often, and after playing with it on a dummy (might not be the best gauge, but it's an estimate), several rounds of doing this, vs. my usual playstyle (dictated by the think tank), resulted in 2-300 higher dps, every time (about 5 minute fights, repeated 10 times for each playstyle).

So to me, a "this is how it works in reality" tip seems to be to focus more on getting your cooldowns off than the actual lightning bolt. Another tip seems to be to get earthshock off before stormstriking, even if they come off cd at about the same time but the other way around, because it saves you intersections of GCD for a while.

Any comments and tips on this are most welcome. If it's inappropriate to do this in this thread (I dont know if it is, my post is about simulator vs. reality after all), just pm me, any advice is helpful, even if it isn't news

Malan · 02/21/09, 9:29 AM

Originally Posted by Bellante

My dps is within 10% of the sim, so it's not all bad,

It's actually more than that because the sim doesn't include Spirit Wolves. Nobody is going to hit their simulated dps unless its on something like patchwerk with a 2-3 min duration - and at that point it's a wash because the longer you have bloodlust active the more it distorts the comparison.

Try adjusting the combat length in the sim to 3 min (default is 5) and watch your simulated dps shoot up.

Dragon-CR · 02/21/09, 2:46 PM

I'm wondering if our current set bonuses are part of the reason we seem to be drifting towards FT/FT at high gear levels. 10% LS damage obviously favors fast weapons and more spell power, and the 5% flurry, along with our strange WF mechanics around the 1.5sec "WF chasm" which we're dancing around with our normal 2.5-2.6 speed weapons. If the T8 set bonuses are more balanced between physical and spell damages we might see the FT/FT advantage fade. Granted if they over compensate and go too far to physical we might see WF/WF rise back.

Rouncer · 02/21/09, 5:57 PM

Originally Posted by Dragon-CR

I'm wondering if our current set bonuses are part of the reason we seem to be drifting towards FT/FT at high gear levels. 10% LS damage obviously favors fast weapons and more spell power, and the 5% flurry, along with our strange WF mechanics around the 1.5sec "WF chasm" which we're dancing around with our normal 2.5-2.6 speed weapons. If the T8 set bonuses are more balanced between physical and spell damages we might see the FT/FT advantage fade. Granted if they over compensate and go too far to physical we might see WF/WF rise back.

You do know that the Windfury Chasm is a misnomer, a phenomenon only observed in the perfectly timed world of the sim. In reality there is no perfect weapon speed that will cause a dramatic loss of dps because of how server-client interactions occur and just due to how the server seems to handle the procs in general.

The cooldown is 3 seconds but the only way I was able to the predicted proc rate (ie no clipping of attacks due to the cooldown) was by using a 3.3 speed weapon. This modulation works on both sides of the coin such that there is a bell curve to the proc rate and not a sharp spike as we see in the Sim.

Dragon-CR · 02/21/09, 6:22 PM

I know it doesn't exist in practice to the extent it demonstrated by the sim but that doesn't necessarily mean that hasting past ~1.5sec swing (give or take a bit as you stated) isn't a smaller increase than before or a bit after (this coming from someone who probably stacks more haste than they should). That's why I put it in quotes, as it's still possible that it's a small effect on WF scaling. Regardless the point that our set bonuses actually seem to favor fast FT builds stands.

Slow, slower, shaman weapons, or was that fast, faster, shaman weapons... we're kinda confused right now...

Rouncer · 02/21/09, 8:45 PM

Originally Posted by Dragon-CR

I know it doesn't exist in practice to the extent it demonstrated by the sim but that doesn't necessarily mean that hasting past ~1.5sec swing (give or take a bit as you stated) isn't a smaller increase than before or a bit after (this coming from someone who probably stacks more haste than they should). That's why I put it in quotes, as it's still possible that it's a small effect on WF scaling. Regardless the point that our set bonuses actually seem to favor fast FT builds stands.

Slow, slower, shaman weapons, or was that fast, faster, shaman weapons... we're kinda confused right now...

The degree of variance about that chasm is probably +/- 0.15 seconds based on what I saw in the test which would mean with a 2.6 speed weapon roughly give or take 5.5% haste which effectively means the chasm is too large of a range to really worry about.

That halfway range really starts at 1.65 (since I had to use a 3.3 speed weapon to avoid losing any procs from the cooldown) and with Flurry and WF Totem alone and a 2.6 speed weapon you are already at 1.6 speed so I would just run a +EP haste and then a -EP haste and average the results to get a relevant value.

Dragon-CR · 02/21/09, 10:00 PM

In an unrelated note I'm wondering how accurate it still is to calculate melee and spell crit separately and using them to statically value int and agi. Due to actual crit rating affecting both crit rates and spell crit affecting ED uptime, I'm guessing that calculating them separately devalues crit slightly in cases of <100% flurry and ED uptime. Seems the seperate crit calculations are a throwback to pre 3.0 days and should maybe be updated for a single crit rating run for both melee and spell, then actually sim int and agility normally instead of calculating from component parts. Since you're dropping a crit run and adding an int and agi run you'd end up with 15 total runs instead of the current 14 but that shouldn't make a big difference in run times and should be more accurate. My gut tells me that flurry uptime would go up and show a higher and probably more accurate value on crit, since doing both crit values at once would increase effective melee crit from both the extra rating and the extra ED uptime.

Pitbuller · 02/22/09, 9:23 AM

Originally Posted by Dragon-CR

In an unrelated note I'm wondering how accurate it still is to calculate melee and spell crit separately and using them to statically value int and agi. Due to actual crit rating affecting both crit rates and spell crit affecting ED uptime, I'm guessing that calculating them separately devalues crit slightly in cases of <100% flurry and ED uptime. Seems the seperate crit calculations are a throwback to pre 3.0 days and should maybe be updated for a single crit rating run for both melee and spell, then actually sim int and agility normally instead of calculating from component parts. Since you're dropping a crit run and adding an int and agi run you'd end up with 15 total runs instead of the current 14 but that shouldn't make a big difference in run times and should be more accurate. My gut tells me that flurry uptime would go up and show a higher and probably more accurate value on crit, since doing both crit values at once would increase effective melee crit from both the extra rating and the extra ED uptime.

How this matter? If you can't accept this small variance how you can even use ep values? Every gear piece is combination of stats. Ep values don't understand this combination only individual values. In theory you are right but in wow reality there is no use of this kind of accuracy. You can even test this differency with simulator. Put +1% spell and melee crit and calculate crit ep.

Dragon-CR · 02/22/09, 11:50 AM

If we didn't want to bother ourselves with small variances we'd just use spreadsheets with static values to approximate EP values like pretty much every other class and say "eh, that looks close enough". Would it mean the difference between doing 4k and 6k dps? Nah, but I'm pretty sure anybody here would squeeze out 5dps more if they could which these days is 0.1% or less of our total.

Pitbuller · 02/22/09, 12:05 PM

You suggest extra ep calculation. This will make simulator take 7% more time per ep full run. If you increase simulation time by 7% you also make simulator more accurate. Which one is more accurate way to model? If you have infinite time to simulate then you can set variance to 0 and then all this little small tweak can be noticed. Only way to model 100% accurate gear upgrades is change config. EP values are just little guideline. Only place where you can even increase invidual stats are gems and those are filled with hit/expertice/ap now. Also if you calculate spell and melee crit same time it's give lower value than separetly not higher like you claimed.

Tukez coded ep calculation this way becouse he like optimazing things. We have this discussion when Woltk was only beta stage and we found this solution best at accuracy/speed axel.

jasonf · 02/22/09, 12:52 PM

From my short testing on target dummies with Wrathstrike MH and Webbed death off-hand (FT/FT) i noticed that using max rank flametongue on both weapons i lose about 15%-20% flametongue hits compared to my white hits. Using rank 9 on one of my weapons and rank 10 on the other i lose about 2%-5% flametongue hits. So my question is this:

Does the sim model the flametongue 'bug" (or hidden cooldown)? And if so, can i set it to use rank 9 flametongue on one of my weapons and rank 10 on the other?

Any opinions on this or if you could point me to the right direction if it has already been discussed would be appreciated.

mjgunn · 02/22/09, 1:01 PM

So, after reading so much about people finding fast mh spell dmg weapons running ft/ft working so well, I was lucky enough to find myself in a 10 man naxx where no one else wanted the hammer of the astral plane, so I nabbed it and ran to the test dummy. Threw FT 9 on the hammer (no enchant yet) in place of my CG, and FT 10 on my webbed death. With no buffs except for my totems (wf, soe, mana, ft), I beat on the dummy until I was oom after using SR, which gave me about a 3.5 minute test. Did it 5 times, averaged 2450 dps. Did the same with my CG, and ended up averaging 2375 dps. So, great, even with no enchant I just got a nice DPS increase which should only get bigger when raid buffed, or so I thought.

Punched my stats with the hammer into the sim, and simmed myself fully raid buffed with the CG, and again with the hammer, both multiple times, and am consistently finding myself going down ~ 130dps with the hammer. Configured the sim to have no buffs but my totems, and it's giving me the same results I got myself at the test dummy, hammer being better by ~ 75 dps. So, if the sim is correct, the hammer is better with no raid buffs, and CG is still better when fully buffed. Wanted to post my 2 config files, was hoping someone could double check them for me, make sure everything is right so I could make sure this is right for me.

Calamity's Grasp File

simulation_time                 1000
simulation_time_combatlog       30
combat_length                   6
report_count                    80
threads                         2
min_lag                         0
max_lag                         0
simulate_mana                   0

ep_precision                    2
ep_base_stat                    ap
ep_ap                           64
ep_crit_rating                  46
ep_hit_rating                   30
ep_expertise                    4
ep_haste_rating                 33
ep_armor_penetration_rating     15
ep_spellpower                   28
ep_dps                          10.0
ep_mana                         200
ep_spirit                       100
ep_mp5                          20

mh_auto_attack                  1
oh_auto_attack                  1
wait_ss_with_wf_cd              0
cast_ll_only_if_wf_on_cd        0
bloodlust_casters               1
sync_bloodlust_with_trinkets    0
cast_lvb_only_if_ed_left        15
cast_lvb_only_if_fsdots_left    4
cast_lvb_only_if_fs_active      1
cast_fs_only_if_dots_left       0
cast_ls_only_if_charges_left    0
cast_sr_only_if_mana_left       700
use_mana_potion_if_mana_left    3000

rotation_priority_count         5
rotation_priority1              MW5_LB
rotation_priority2              SS
rotation_priority3              ES
rotation_priority4              LL
rotation_priority5              LS

miss                            8.00
dodge                           6.50
glancing                        25.00
armor                           13083
spell_miss                      17.00
nature_resistance               0
fire_resistance                 0
frost_resistance                0
arcane_resistance               0
shadow_resistance               0

armor_debuff_major              3925/3925
armor_debuff_minor              1260/1260
physical_vulnerability_debuff   2.0/2.0
melee_haste_buff                20.0/20.0
melee_crit_chance_buff          5.0/5.0
attack_power_buff_flat          688/688
attack_power_buff_multiplier    0/99.7
spell_haste_buff                5.0/5.0
spell_crit_chance_buff          5.0/5.0
spell_crit_chance_debuff        10.0/10.0
spell_damage_debuff             13.0/13.0
spellpower_buff                 280/280
spell_hit_chance_debuff         3.0/3.0
haste_buff                      3.0/3.0
percentage_damage_increase      3.0/3.0
crit_chance_debuff              3.0/3.0
stat_multiplier                 10.0/10.0
stat_add_buff                   52/52
agi_and_strength_buff           178/178
intellect_buff                  60/60

replenishment                   1
water_shield                    0
mana_spring_totem               1
blessing_of_wisdom              0
judgement_of_wisdom             1

flask_elixir                    elixir_of_major_agility
guardian_elixir                 elixir_of_draenic_wisdom
potion                          -
food                            wyrm_delight
misc_item                       -

###############################################################################
### Everything in the section below can be replaced by information obtained ###
### from your paper doll stats or exported by the ShockAndAwe addon         ###
###############################################################################

race                            draenei
mh_speed                        2.6
oh_speed                        1.4
mh_dps                          171.3
oh_dps                          156.4
mh_crit                         33.5
oh_crit                         33.5
mh_hit                          10.55
oh_hit                          10.55
mh_expertise_rating             214
oh_expertise_rating             214
ap                              3648
haste                           2.84
armor_penetration               2.40
str                             129
agi                             819
int                             473
spi                             153
spellpower                      1094
spell_crit                      25.79
spell_hit                       13.19
max_mana                        11211
mp5                             0

mh_imbue                        windfury
oh_imbue                        flametongue

mh_enchant                      berserking
oh_enchant                      berserking

mh_weapon                       -
oh_weapon                       -

trinket1                        mirror_of_truth
trinket2                        meteorite_whetstone

totem                           totem_of_dueling

set_bonus                       naxx_melee_4

metagem                         relentless_earthstorm_diamond

glyph_major1                    windfury_weapon
glyph_major2                    stormstrike
glyph_major3                    flametongue_weapon

glyph_minor1                    -
glyph_minor2                    -
glyph_minor3                    -

ancestral_knowledge             2/5
improved_shields                0/3
mental_dexterity                3/3
shamanistic_focus               0/1
flurry                          5/5
elemental_weapons               3/3
unleashed_rage                  5/5
weapon_mastery                  3/3
dual_wield_specialization       3/3
mental_quickness                3/3
improved_stormstrike            2/2
static_shock                    3/3
maelstrom_weapon                5/5

convection                      2/5
concussion                      5/5
call_of_flame                   0/3
elemental_devastation           3/3
reverberation                   0/5
elemental_focus                 1/1
elemental_fury                  5/5
call_of_thunder                 0/1
unrelenting_storm               0/3
elemental_precision             0/3
lightning_mastery               0/5
elemental_oath                  0/2
lightning_overload              0/5
lava_flows                      0/3
storm_earth_and_fire            0/3
shamanism                       0/5

Hammer of the Astral Plane File

simulation_time                 1000
simulation_time_combatlog       30
combat_length                   6
report_count                    80
threads                         2
min_lag                         0
max_lag                         0
simulate_mana                   0

ep_precision                    2
ep_base_stat                    ap
ep_ap                           64
ep_crit_rating                  46
ep_hit_rating                   30
ep_expertise                    4
ep_haste_rating                 33
ep_armor_penetration_rating     15
ep_spellpower                   28
ep_dps                          10.0
ep_mana                         200
ep_spirit                       100
ep_mp5                          20

mh_auto_attack                  1
oh_auto_attack                  1
wait_ss_with_wf_cd              0
cast_ll_only_if_wf_on_cd        0
bloodlust_casters               1
sync_bloodlust_with_trinkets    0
cast_lvb_only_if_ed_left        15
cast_lvb_only_if_fsdots_left    4
cast_lvb_only_if_fs_active      1
cast_fs_only_if_dots_left       0
cast_ls_only_if_charges_left    0
cast_sr_only_if_mana_left       700
use_mana_potion_if_mana_left    3000

rotation_priority_count         5
rotation_priority1              MW5_LB
rotation_priority2              SS
rotation_priority3              ES
rotation_priority4              LL
rotation_priority5              LS

miss                            8.00
dodge                           6.50
glancing                        25.00
armor                           13083
spell_miss                      17.00
nature_resistance               0
fire_resistance                 0
frost_resistance                0
arcane_resistance               0
shadow_resistance               0

armor_debuff_major              3925/3925
armor_debuff_minor              1260/1260
physical_vulnerability_debuff   2.0/2.0
melee_haste_buff                20.0/20.0
melee_crit_chance_buff          5.0/5.0
attack_power_buff_flat          688/688
attack_power_buff_multiplier    0/99.7
spell_haste_buff                5.0/5.0
spell_crit_chance_buff          5.0/5.0
spell_crit_chance_debuff        10.0/10.0
spell_damage_debuff             13.0/13.0
spellpower_buff                 280/280
spell_hit_chance_debuff         3.0/3.0
haste_buff                      3.0/3.0
percentage_damage_increase      3.0/3.0
crit_chance_debuff              3.0/3.0
stat_multiplier                 10.0/10.0
stat_add_buff                   52/52
agi_and_strength_buff           178/178
intellect_buff                  60/60

replenishment                   0
water_shield                    0
mana_spring_totem               1
blessing_of_wisdom              0
judgement_of_wisdom             0

flask_elixir                    -
guardian_elixir                 -
potion                          -
food                            -
misc_item                       -

###############################################################################
### Everything in the section below can be replaced by information obtained ###
### from your paper doll stats or exported by the ShockAndAwe addon         ###
###############################################################################

race                            draenei
mh_speed                        1.8
oh_speed                        1.4
mh_dps                          90.5
oh_dps                          156.4
mh_crit                         33.18
oh_crit                         33.18
mh_hit                          10.55
oh_hit                          10.55
mh_expertise_rating             214
oh_expertise_rating             214
ap                              3559
haste                           3.05
armor_penetration               2.40
str                             129
agi                             783
int                             518
spi                             153
spellpower                      1528
spell_crit                      28.17
spell_hit                       13.19
max_mana                        11886
mp5                             0

mh_imbue                        flametongue
oh_imbue                        flametongue

mh_enchant                      -
oh_enchant                      berserking

mh_weapon                       -
oh_weapon                       -

trinket1                        mirror_of_truth
trinket2                        meteorite_whetstone

totem                           totem_of_dueling

set_bonus                       naxx_melee_4

metagem                         relentless_earthstorm_diamond

glyph_major1                    windfury_weapon
glyph_major2                    stormstrike
glyph_major3                    flametongue_weapon

glyph_minor1                    -
glyph_minor2                    -
glyph_minor3                    -

ancestral_knowledge             2/5
improved_shields                0/3
mental_dexterity                3/3
shamanistic_focus               0/1
flurry                          5/5
elemental_weapons               3/3
unleashed_rage                  5/5
weapon_mastery                  3/3
dual_wield_specialization       3/3
mental_quickness                3/3
improved_stormstrike            2/2
static_shock                    3/3
maelstrom_weapon                5/5

convection                      2/5
concussion                      5/5
call_of_flame                   0/3
elemental_devastation           3/3
reverberation                   0/5
elemental_focus                 1/1
elemental_fury                  5/5
call_of_thunder                 0/1
unrelenting_storm               0/3
elemental_precision             0/3
lightning_mastery               0/5
elemental_oath                  0/2
lightning_overload              0/5
lava_flows                      0/3
storm_earth_and_fire            0/3
shamanism                       0/5

Thanks for any help you could provide!!

Edit: Whoops, had the CG file posted for both, fixed now. Also, forgot to mention that I manually added 2% extra spell crit on the hammer config for the 2nd flametongue imbue since I've read that the sim only adds 2%, not 4 if you have flametongue on both weapons.

Edit 2: After reading the OH weapon thread, tried the sim with swapping trinkets for the thunder capacitor. My DPS went up for both of them using it, about the same amount, around 130dps, so the CG is still higher.

Zayrinoke · 02/22/09, 1:02 PM

Originally Posted by jasonf

From my short testing on target dummies with Wrathstrike MH and Webbed death off-hand (FT/FT) i noticed that using max rank flametongue on both weapons i lose about 15%-20% flametongue hits compared to my white hits. Using rank 9 on one of my weapons and rank 10 on the other i lose about 2%-5% flametongue hits. So my question is this:

Does the sim model the flametongue 'bug" (or hidden cooldown)? And if so, can i set it to use rank 9 flametongue on one of my weapons and rank 10 on the other?

Any opinions on this or if you could point me to the right direction if it has already been discussed would be appreciated.

The sim does not model it. In order to account for it when simming, simply subtract 33 Spellpower from your paper doll stats and then 12-15 DPS off your end result. Rank 9 should be on your mainhand, rank 10 on the offhand.

jasonf · 02/22/09, 1:35 PM

Originally Posted by Zayrinoke

The sim does not model it. In order to account for it when simming, simply subtract 33 Spellpower from your paper doll stats and then 12-15 DPS off your end result. Rank 9 should be on your mainhand, rank 10 on the offhand.

Thanks, should have figured that out by checking the tooltips :p. Does the scaling remain the same though?

kaoticz · 02/22/09, 1:40 PM

IDK if anyone else has noticed (I'm quite sure most have but it hasn't been noted yet and I'm OCD on noting things hehe), but yet another reason FT/FT sims much higher -- and no I'm not being oblivious to the obviousness of the scaling of FT, I realize this is a huge factor as well as other things -- but do you notice that lightning shield damage goes from around 100 give or take 20 dps to around 210 give or take 20 dps (obviously using static shock)? Thats a 100 dps increase on just LS damage. It's because both weapons are fast weapons and are proccing it more often. I even notice this in combat that I'm refreshing it much more often than with a traditional WF/FT setup.

Rouncer · 02/22/09, 2:08 PM

Originally Posted by kaoticz

IDK if anyone else has noticed (I'm quite sure most have but it hasn't been noted yet and I'm OCD on noting things hehe), but yet another reason FT/FT sims much higher -- and no I'm not being oblivious to the obviousness of the scaling of FT, I realize this is a huge factor as well as other things -- but do you notice that lightning shield damage goes from around 100 give or take 20 dps to around 210 give or take 20 dps (obviously using static shock)? Thats a 100 dps increase on just LS damage. It's because both weapons are fast weapons and are proccing it more often. I even notice this in combat that I'm refreshing it much more often than with a traditional WF/FT setup.

That's a misnomer.

The lightning shield damage boost you are seeing is from the additional spellpower not from the faster weapons. Keep in mind that Windfury Hits count as melee attacks so they can proc Lightning Shield while Flametongue hits can not. So even though you are using Windfury with a slower weapon you are hitting just as often, if not more often, due to those additional Windfury hits.

Dragon-CR · 02/22/09, 9:39 PM

Does the sim assume LS procs can miss? Because it seems they can't, or if they do miss they don't show up in combat log at all. I did ~9000 swings on test dummy (that connected), along with another ~1000 WF attacks and had 568 LS procs, with ~4% spell miss (as shown by FT), and none of the LS show as missed or fully resisted. This was on the heroic dummy. Also in this run I had ~49% berserker uptime, and Procodile showed 176 procs and 1.76ppm for dual berserker but that doesn't count refreshes. This run had ~71% flurry uptime as well.

I downloaded Proculas and did a second test run on the L60 dummies, and did 9857 attacks on them with no weapon imbues or LS this time. Procodile reported 155 Berserker buffs and 1.72ppm without refreshes, however Proculas reported 303 procs including refreshes for a total of 3.36ppm over 90 minutes. Neither mod shows the uptime for dual berserker buffs unfortunately. This run had ~79% flurry uptime, no weapon imbues, and no special attacks, only WF and SoE totem for max haste and crit.

I did a few tests effectively naked wearing just weapons and a few items with the most hit and least crit on them. For this run I pulled [Pride] out of the bank that had mongoose on it to seperate out the mongoose and berserker procs. This run had no imbues, no totems, no specials, and ~41% flurry uptime. I observed a somewhat large gap between mongoose and berserking PPM rates, mongoose with 1.36ppm and berserking with 1.02ppm over 5000 seconds and ~6000 attacks, assuming thats just due to luck with mongoose and bad luck with berserking over a small set they could both still be in the 1.2ppm range, and they both average out there.

I had done another test prior to the above test with the wrong Procula version installed which only tracked mongoose and for that run it had mongoose at 1.11ppm with a 1hr test.

That doesn't change the fact that the full gear/haste version had ~1.7ppm x2 which is much harder to explain by a 90 minute lucky streak on both weapons, as it's ~41% higher than expected. Total average haste with 4pc T7 and flurry compensated for uptime, WF totem, item haste, and my [Meteorite Whetstone] averaged out with its uptime for the fight was ~67.4%, however if you take WF totem out of the equation then flurry + haste rating is ~39.5% haste. My naked haste including flurry was ~12%.

So this testing begs the following questions:

Are we sure the ppm for mongoose and berserking is 1.2? From my mostly naked tests it seems in that area but possibly slightly lower.
Are we sure haste effects don't affect weapon proc rate? 3.36ppm over 90 minutes with dual berserking seems to fall fairly far outside the probability of a lucky streak.
If some haste does affect it, do all haste effects affect it? If so then 41% more procs for 67% more haste was an unlucky streak, if only some effects do, and WF totem isn't one of them, then 39% more more haste matches the observed proc rate. If #1 is right about the lower proc rate, and the proc rate is actually 1ppm, then the 67% haste matches fairly well with 1.7ppm.

I know it would have been much better to spec out of flurry to eliminate that factor from the naked tests but I frankly didn't feel like it and I don't think it affected the results too much, esp since I dumped as much crit as I could for those tests.

I have fairly extensive screenshots of the above test results if anybody cares to see them, both recount, procodile, and proculas data. If you really want to see them let me know and I can post them.

If anybody else cares to repeat these tests I recommend both proc monitoring addons since Procodile shows total uptime and Proculas counts refreshes for a more accurate proc count.

Dragon-CR · 02/22/09, 9:42 PM

I'm not sure if this is widely known but I've seen most people say that [Mirror of Truth] has a 60second cooldown but all of my geared tests today actually showed it at 50seconds ICD, not sure how it is in sim.

Malan · 02/22/09, 9:51 PM

It's more likely a 45 sec CD which I believe is how most of our calculations use it.