EnhSim, DPS simulator - Page 79

Nexaris · 05/05/09, 5:54 AM

Hai

2 questions :
1.How that EP works ( what's about them ) - because i know they are calculation my stats to some dps points right ?
2. If one of my stat got EP >2 so i should stack it ? ( i read it on some forum)

Levva · 05/05/09, 6:57 AM

Originally Posted by Eathir

It appears that trinkets/weapon enchants aint being written out as anything but numbers (DMG + MoT and Berserking enchants on both MH and OH)

Both ShockAndAwe & Rawr now export item id's for trinkets, enchants, metagems, totems. This is so that you don't need to upgrade those programs every time there is a new item added to the game.

What should perhaps happen in EnhSim though is that it should warn if it doesn't recognise an item id. So that you know it's skipping that item.

Eathir · 05/05/09, 9:09 AM

Originally Posted by Levva

Both ShockAndAwe & Rawr now export item id's for trinkets, enchants, metagems, totems. This is so that you don't need to upgrade those programs every time there is a new item added to the game.

What should perhaps happen in EnhSim though is that it should warn if it doesn't recognise an item id. So that you know it's skipping that item.

sweet.

Levva, do you know if the 1% hit bonus from heroic presence (Draeni racial) gets added when choosing race? Rawr has a option to activate the buff, but I can't find something similair in enhsim.

Eva · 05/05/09, 9:23 AM

The 1% hit racial is taken into account in Enhancesim. I tried this on my Draenei shaman, which is slighty above the spellhit-cap, leading to the message: EP hit goes past cap with spells. If I would then select a different race, this message would disappear.

This leads to the conclusion that the 1% hit racial is taken into account.

Eathir · 05/05/09, 10:01 AM

damn, that would have been such a easy solution, can't see another reason for enhsim giving me subspellhitcap EP's for hitrating.

OnosKT · 05/05/09, 10:13 AM

1.How that EP works ( what's about them ) - because i know they are calculation my stats to some dps points right ?

EP stands for equivalence points. In order to calculate equivalences you need a standard base. For us (enh shamans), that base stat is AP, so everything is calculated relative to AP. When you get an EP of say 1.74 for agility, it means that 1 agility = 1.74 AP. Since items have stat budgets, this allows you to calculate how much EP an item has.

2. If one of my stat got EP >2 so i should stack it ? ( i read it on some forum)

Not exactly. First of all for gear (not gems or chants), it will depend on the total EP value of that item. Say I have a hypothetical item with 100AP and another item with 25 hit, and hit = 2.5 EP. The first item will give you 100 EP (AP = 1 EP always) and the second gives 75 EP (25 * 2.5). Even though the second item has a stat that has > 2 EP, the first one is still better.

For gems, you should generally gem for stats that have > 2 EP, since AP gems are 32, and other stats are generally 16 gems. If nothing is > 2 EP, then AP gems are best. This should go without saying but always take into consideration socket bonuses. The worldbreaker pants for example have a socket bonus of 12 AP (so 12 EP).

Edit:

I'm having some issues with reconciling with the output I get from EnhSim and was basicly wondering if something is wrong with the input. I seem to be getting very high values for hitrating, past spell hit cap (ranging from 2.9-3.1) where I'd expect to get values a bit below 2 atleast.

Are you sure that, that is the config file you are running? Because when I EP your posted config, this is what I get:

EP                        value     DPS       total DPS      difference

baseline                                      5599.34
ap                        1.00      0.55      5708.47        109.12
crit rating               1.85      1.01      5629.69        30.34
hit rating                1.71      0.93      5627.30        27.96
expertise rating          0.00      0.00      0.00           -5599.34
haste rating              1.72      0.94      5627.55        28.21
armor penetration rating  1.55      0.84      5624.68        25.34
spellpower                1.17      0.64      5695.19        95.85
mh dps                    5.31      2.90      5621.09        21.74
oh dps                    3.03      1.65      5611.73        12.39
strength                  1.10      
agility                   1.66      
intelligence*             1.52      
spirit                    0.00      0.00      0.00           -5599.34
mana                      0.00      0.00      0.00           -5599.34
mp5                       0.00      0.00      0.00           -5599.34

Edit2:

You are definitely not running the right config file. Based on your DPS values, you are running the default config file. Are you running it via command line or GUI?

Eathir · 05/05/09, 11:46 AM

Originally Posted by OnosKT

Edit2:

You are definitely not running the right config file. Based on your DPS values, you are running the default config file. Are you running it via command line or GUI?

Thanks, no I wasnt now that I looked it over, was using the command line option, going via the GUI with the correct path gives the same results you posted, thanks!

Staticus · 05/05/09, 11:57 AM

Originally Posted by OnosKT

For gems, you should generally gem for stats that have > 2 EP, since AP gems are 32, and other stats are generally 16 gems. If nothing is > 2 EP, then AP gems are best. This should go without saying but always take into consideration socket bonuses. The worldbreaker pants for example have a socket bonus of 12 AP (so 12 EP).

Blue socket bonuses always cost 16 ap (or equivalent) though, as green/purple gems only have half their budget spent on dps stats. So it should only be used to activate the meta, for yellow socket bonuses it's a bit cloudier so the sim is your friend.

Also be wary of rating stats that go over 2.00, as they often change around with new upgrades (haste especially). I tend to just stack 32 AP gems (after hit/exp cap), as their value never changes.

Haalun · 05/05/09, 4:06 PM

Originally Posted by Staticus

Blue socket bonuses always cost 16 ap (or equivalent) though, as green/purple gems only have half their budget spent on dps stats. So it should only be used to activate the meta, for yellow socket bonuses it's a bit cloudier so the sim is your friend.

Also be wary of rating stats that go over 2.00, as they often change around with new upgrades (haste especially). I tend to just stack 32 AP gems (after hit/exp cap), as their value never changes.

The EP value of AP doesn't change because EP is normalized to AP: 1 AP = 1 EP by definition. However, the DPS value of AP per point can go up and down with your gear. This is part of what makes EP values for other stats fluctuate. If EP was normalized to haste instead, you'd think haste was steady while AP went up and down. If EP was just given as raw DPS value, you'd see all stats change in value.

Lucentia · 05/05/09, 4:10 PM

Originally Posted by Staticus

Blue socket bonuses always cost 16 ap (or equivalent) though, as green/purple gems only have half their budget spent on dps stats. So it should only be used to activate the meta, for yellow socket bonuses it's a bit cloudier so the sim is your friend.

Also be wary of rating stats that go over 2.00, as they often change around with new upgrades (haste especially). I tend to just stack 32 AP gems (after hit/exp cap), as their value never changes.

I'll usually try to use an [Enchanted Tear] to activate my meta, since it is usually worth about 24 EP (assuming 1.7ish for agi and 1.3ish for int)

Levva · 05/06/09, 8:43 AM

I was trawling through the EnhSim v1.7.0 code, which is how I can make Rawr a lot better due to my understanding some nuances I'd missed. Yay for trivialities such as bosses innate 3 levels difference = 2.8175% fire & nature damage resistance. Whilst looking at the code I noted that the Damage Reduction calcs for Armour pen still seem to be using the old calcs.

GhostCrawler gave us the actual in game ones in World of Warcraft - English (NA) Forums -> 116% Armor Pen only giving 66%!?!?!?!

All Rawr models use a common code block implemented as follows :

        public static float GetArmorDamageReduction(int AttackerLevel, float TargetArmor,
            float ArmorIgnoreDebuffs, float ArmorIgnoreBuffs, float ArmorPenetrationRating)
        {
            float ArmorConstant = 400 + 85 * AttackerLevel + 4.5f * 85 * (AttackerLevel - 59);
            TargetArmor *= (1f - ArmorIgnoreDebuffs) * (1f - ArmorIgnoreBuffs);
            float ArPCap = Math.Min((TargetArmor + ArmorConstant) / 3f, TargetArmor);
            TargetArmor -= ArPCap * Math.Min(1f, ArmorPenetrationRating / 1231.6239f);
            
            return 1f - ArmorConstant / (ArmorConstant + TargetArmor);
        }

Forgive me if the newly revealed cap limitation is covered in the code elsewhere but I couldn't find it. So I thought I better bring it to your attention, in case this does need updating.

Edit: Whilst I'm on the subject the additional tests people have done now suggest boss armour is 10643 not 10645!!!

Totentanz · 05/07/09, 6:56 AM

I am getting strange results from the sim.

I want to compare a CL (LB if CL on CD) with a LB-only priority sequence.

I am getting 6263.85 for CL-LB and 6285.56 for LB-only.
And that's strange, considering I'm not simulating mana.

Is it a bug of the sim or there is a reason for the results?

these are the config file sections for the tests:

rotation_priority_count		10
rotation_priority1              SW
rotation_priority2		SR
rotation_priority3		MW5_CL
rotation_priority4		MW5_LB
rotation_priority5		ES_SS
rotation_priority6		SS
rotation_priority7		ES
rotation_priority8		MT
rotation_priority9		LS
rotation_priority10		LL

rotation_priority_count		9
rotation_priority1              SW
rotation_priority2		SR
rotation_priority3		MW5_LB
rotation_priority4		ES_SS
rotation_priority5		SS
rotation_priority6		ES
rotation_priority7		MT
rotation_priority8		LS
rotation_priority9		LL

St4ud3 · 05/07/09, 7:52 AM

Chain Lightning does less dmg, because it doesn't scale as well with your spellpower. So you should only use it if there are 2 or more targets.

zomghax · 05/07/09, 9:39 AM

Chain Lightning has a higher base damage, but Lightning Bolt has a higher coefficient. At T7 gear levels and with a few raid buffs, LB will out-perform CL on single targets.

CL average base damage = 1042
LB average base damage = 765

CL coefficient = 0.641
LB coefficient = 0.794

The intersection point at which LB will start to do more damage on a single target is (1042-765) / (.794-.641) = 1810 spell power, easily achieved by a T7 geared Enhancement Shaman with raid buffs.

Haze · 05/07/09, 1:56 PM

I have some questions about the Sim. I am starting to use it now, and i had some odd results:

I have already the yellow hit cap, counting raid buffs, even so, the sim is giving me an odd result, putting hit with more EP than AP, which i believe should be my priority after the hit/exp cap(dont have the exp yet).

simulation_time 5000
simulation_time_combatlog 30
combat_length 5
report_count 80
threads 2
min_lag 190
max_lag 300
simulate_mana 0

ep_precision 2
ep_base_stat ap
ep_ap 1.00
ep_crit_rating 2.18
ep_hit_rating 1.59
ep_expertise 2.80
ep_haste_rating 1.78
ep_armor_penetration_rating 1.46
ep_spellpower 1.11
ep_dps 5.95 Had some doubts here: When i calculated the EP values, they give me the MH EP and the OH EP... So what should i put in here?

ep_mana 0
ep_spirit 0
ep_mp5 0

mh_auto_attack 1
oh_auto_attack 1
wait_ss_with_wf_cd 0.00
cast_ll_only_if_wf_on_cd 0
bloodlust_casters 1
sync_bloodlust_with_trinkets 1
cast_lvb_only_if_ed_left 15.0
cast_lvb_only_if_fsdots_left 4
cast_lvb_only_if_fs_active 1
cast_fs_only_if_dots_left 0
cast_ls_only_if_charges_left 0
cast_sr_only_if_mana_left 750
use_mana_potion_if_mana_left 3000

rotation_priority_count 7
rotation_priority1 MW5_LB
rotation_priority2 ES_SS
rotation_priority3 SS
rotation_priority4 ES
rotation_priority5 LL
rotation_priority6 MT
rotation_priority7 LS

miss 8.0
dodge 6.5
glancing 24.0
armor 10645
spell_miss 17.0
nature_resistance 0
fire_resistance 0
frost_resistance 0
arcane_resistance 0
shadow_resistance 0

armor_debuff_major 20.0/20.0
armor_debuff_minor 0/5.0
physical_vulnerability_debuff 0/4.0
melee_haste_buff 20.0/20.0
melee_crit_chance_buff 5.0/5.0
attack_power_buff_flat 688/688
attack_power_buff_multiplier 0/99.7
spell_haste_buff 5.0/5.0
spell_crit_chance_buff 5.0/5.0
spell_crit_chance_debuff 0/5.0
spell_damage_debuff 10.0/10.0
spellpower_buff 280/280
spell_hit_chance_debuff 3.0/3.0
haste_buff 3.0/3.0
percentage_damage_increase 3.0/3.0
crit_chance_debuff 0/3.0
stat_multiplier 10.0/10.0
stat_add_buff 52/52
agi_and_strength_buff 178/178
intellect_buff 60/60

replenishment 0
water_shield 0
mana_spring_totem 0
blessing_of_wisdom 0
judgement_of_wisdom 0

flask_elixir flask_of_endless_rage
guardian_elixir -
potion potion_of_speed
food blackened_dragonfin

###############################################################################
### Everything in the section below can be replaced by information obtained ###
### from your paper doll stats or exported by the ShockAndAwe addon ###
###############################################################################

race orc
mh_speed 2.6
oh_speed 2.5
mh_dps 143.5
oh_dps 143.6
mh_crit 28.84
oh_crit 28.84
mh_hit 17.34
oh_hit 17.34
mh_expertise_rating 18
oh_expertise_rating 18
ap 3461
melee_haste 4.12
armor_penetration 4.06
str 131
agi 748
int 453
spi 154
spellpower 1312
spell_crit 23.86
spell_hit 14.18
spell_haste 3.17
max_mana 10911
mp5 54

mh_imbue windfury
oh_imbue flametongue

mh_enchant mongoose
oh_enchant mongoose

mh_weapon -
oh_weapon -

trinket1 mirror_of_truth
trinket2 meteorite_whetstone

totem totem_of_splintering

set_bonus1 naxx_melee_2
set_bonus2 naxx_melee_4
set_bonus3 -

metagem chaotic_skyfire_diamond

gloves_enchant -
cloak_enchant -

glyph_major1 stormstrike
glyph_major2 windfury_weapon
glyph_major3 shocking

glyph_minor1 -
glyph_minor2 -
glyph_minor3 -

ancestral_knowledge 2/5
improved_shields 1/3
mental_dexterity 3/3
shamanistic_focus 1/1
flurry 5/5
elemental_weapons 3/3
unleashed_rage 3/3
weapon_mastery 3/3
dual_wield_specialization 3/3
mental_quickness 3/3
improved_stormstrike 0/2
static_shock 3/3
maelstrom_weapon 5/5

convection 0/5
concussion 5/5
call_of_flame 2/3
elemental_devastation 3/3
reverberation 5/5
elemental_focus 0/1
elemental_fury 5/5
call_of_thunder 0/1
unrelenting_storm 0/3
elemental_precision 0/3
lightning_mastery 0/5
elemental_oath 0/2
lightning_overload 0/5
lava_flows 0/3
storm_earth_and_fire 0/3
shamanism 0/5

Please excuse me if im screwing something up, I just dont understand how my EP value of Hit can be higher than my AP value, i don't understand how the Sim can give me AP EP of only 1.00

Sansa · 05/07/09, 2:23 PM

Originally Posted by Haze

Please excuse me if im screwing something up, I just dont understand how my EP value of Hit can be higher than my AP value, i don't understand how the Sim can give me AP EP of only 1.00

AP, as already explained in a post just a few above yours, is the baseline used to calculate the relative usefulness of all other stats. AP is always going to be 1 according to the sim. Your hit being aruond 1.5 means that 15 hit = 10 AP. But you'll notice that with gems, for instance, there are 32 AP gems and 16 hit rating gems. So unless the EP of hit is over 2, you would always gem AP. and hit is still useful past the spell cap because of white damage, I believe, which is why it still has value, although not as much as before you hit the cap.

Haze · 05/07/09, 2:57 PM

Originally Posted by Sansa

AP, as already explained in a post just a few above yours, is the baseline used to calculate the relative usefulness of all other stats. AP is always going to be 1 according to the sim. Your hit being aruond 1.5 means that 15 hit = 10 AP. But you'll notice that with gems, for instance, there are 32 AP gems and 16 hit rating gems. So unless the EP of hit is over 2, you would always gem AP. and hit is still useful past the spell cap because of white damage, I believe, which is why it still has value, although not as much as before you hit the cap.

Thank you very much for the explanation. Now everything makes sense. I am sorry for not reading the post before asking the question.

But What about the DPS EP value? Should i add my MH with my OH value?

Haze · 05/07/09, 3:43 PM

I just had an upgrade (got Hemorraging ring, the one with exp rating) and updated my stats to recheck my EP values, and since then, i am getting weird random results: sometimes all values comes negative (??) sometimes they jsut dont make sense, and they are being different everytime i run a EP check... What can i do to fix this?

Also, the EP value for Expertise is often showing as 0, or as < than 2, and i'm not capped (5.5%, expertise 22) so that also doesn't make sense...

OnosKT · 05/07/09, 4:17 PM

ep_precision 2
ep_base_stat ap
ep_ap 1.00
ep_crit_rating 2.18
ep_hit_rating 1.59
ep_expertise 2.80
ep_haste_rating 1.78
ep_armor_penetration_rating 1.46
ep_spellpower 1.11
ep_dps 5.95

Simply put, do not touch the ep_[....] value sin the config unless you know very well what you are doing. For more info on what the ep_values do, check the enhsim wiki.

Haze · 05/07/09, 4:27 PM

Originally Posted by OnosKT

ep_precision 2
ep_base_stat ap
ep_ap 1.00
ep_crit_rating 2.18
ep_hit_rating 1.59
ep_expertise 2.80
ep_haste_rating 1.78
ep_armor_penetration_rating 1.46
ep_spellpower 1.11
ep_dps 5.95

Simply put, do not touch the ep_[....] value sin the config unless you know very well what you are doing. For more info on what the ep_values do, check the enhsim wiki.

So i don't ever touch the values of the EP bracket?
I should put the default values again? Doing so will give me accurate EP values?
I put the default values (including 4 in expertise to get it capped) but its still showing expertise EP over 2, and it's giving me very different results every time i run the EP check

OnosKT · 05/07/09, 4:53 PM

1. Are you expertise caped? No - of course your expertise EP value will be over 2. And no, putting 4 in the ep_expertise in the config does not cap it (but I am too tired to explain what that does for the xth time - please read the enhsim wiki)

2. Set simulation_time 5000 to something like 10000 and values should stabilize. If not post your config, and I'll try and see if I get the same results.

Quirk · 05/07/09, 5:58 PM

so, I got myself [The Masticator] and I would have expected a simulated increase in DPS over [Calamity's Grasp] but it doesn't look like it's going to work out that way. Even if I input identical stats (assuming TM has the same stats as CG) but different weapon speed values, the 2.6 always seems to win out over the 2.7. Is this because of flurry? ie; over time more swings will be awarded to the offhand. It was my assumption that the increased SS/WF damage would far outweigh that anomaly.

Ryethe · 05/07/09, 6:23 PM

Originally Posted by Quirk

so, I got myself [The Masticator] and I would have expected a simulated increase in DPS over [Calamity's Grasp] but it doesn't look like it's going to work out that way. Even if I input identical stats (assuming TM has the same stats as CG) but different weapon speed values, the 2.6 always seems to win out over the 2.7. Is this because of flurry? ie; over time more swings will be awarded to the offhand. It was my assumption that the increased SS/WF damage would far outweigh that anomaly.

This issue has come up many many times. Flurry is almost certainly the culprit but not for the reason you would expect. Basically with two weapons of the same speed they can become synced thus causing both weapons to strike but only consume 1 flurry charge. Realistically in the game itself, getting your weapons synced and keeping them in sync is more trouble than it's worth.

I believe for cases like this Rouncer suggested modifying the weapon speed in the simulator by .01. This should give you more realistic values.

Levva · 05/07/09, 7:24 PM

Originally Posted by Haze

I have some questions about the Sim. I am starting to use it now, and i had some odd results:

I have already the yellow hit cap, counting raid buffs, even so, the sim is giving me an odd result, putting hit with more EP than AP, which i believe should be my priority after the hit/exp cap(dont have the exp yet).

ep_precision                    2
ep_base_stat                    ap
ep_ap                           1.00
ep_crit_rating                  2.18
ep_hit_rating                   1.59
ep_expertise                    2.80
ep_haste_rating                 1.78
ep_armor_penetration_rating     1.46
ep_spellpower                   1.11
ep_dps                          5.95                   Had some doubts here: When i calculated the EP values, they give me the MH EP and the OH EP... So what should i put in here?

ep_mana                         0
ep_spirit                       0
ep_mp5                          0

Please excuse me if im screwing something up, I just dont understand how my EP value of Hit can be higher than my AP value, i don't understand how the Sim can give me AP EP of only 1.00

First PLEASE put code blocks around configs so we don't have to scroll through great long lists.

Second WHAT ON EARTH are you doing changing the EP config values, DO NOT CHANGE THEM IF YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT YOU ARE DOING. Clearly you have no idea. You DON'T change the INPUT values in the config to what you get as the OUTPUT values, ie: the results, thats just clueless.

READ the documentation its very clear what the values mean, they are STEPS ie: the amount the sim adds to your current AP, Agi, Haste, Hit, etc to see what the dps difference is. So by changing the EP AP value to 1.00 you are saying do a calculation with my current Attack Power and get a base dps figure. Now run the sim again with ONE extra AP and get a new dps result. WHY WHY WHY??? Adding a step of ONE attack power is utterly meaningless and absolutely guaranteed to give you crap results.

Put everything back to the defaults and don't touch them again.

BTW you said you are not Exp capped??? Why on earth not? You cap expertise BEFORE you go for spell hit cap as expertise capping has a far higher effect on your dps than spell hit capping. Your post is bordering on the clueless and asking for a ban.

Gak · 05/07/09, 8:12 PM

While simming some new gear yesterday to decide when I can lose my Naxx 2 and 4 set bonus for the t8 ones, I had a question for the Enhsim developer.

If I have the 4 piece Naxx set bonus tagged in Enhsim do I have to tag the 2 piece set bonus also or does the 4 set bonus include the 2 set bonus? I do not want to double up on the 2 piece set bonus.