EnhSim, DPS simulator - Page 9

tukez · 09/17/08, 10:44 AM

Originally Posted by Levva

Minor niggle with sim talent options.

There is no option to choose stormstrike - I guess because its kinda assumed as a given, same with Dual wield. However there is a choice of 3/3 Elemental weapons, which as a pre-requisite of Stormstrike obviously must be a given too?? So is it necessary to give Elemental Weapons as an option if you are assuming stormstrike?

BTW Lava Lash are you intending to include that as a talent choice? Or is it a case if its ticked in the priorities you assume they have it?

Actually thinking about it I'd be interested in assisting with the GUI perhaps adding options to import a tree from wowhead/blizzard/wowdb etc. Possibly also looking at the feasibility of importing stats from Armory. Although not sure armory gives all the stats I couldn't see ArP given for instance - certainly not as a percentage.

Only problem is my C++ skills are extremely rusty. I'd be happier coding in Java, which would have the benefit of being platform independent and helping the Mac & Linux guys.

I'd be willing to look at a Java port of the sim too if you were at all interested in heading in that direction? As I say the major plus is platform independence.

If you have SS in rotation priority, then it assumes you also have the talent. Same goes with Lava Lash. The talent selection box does not check any prerequirements of the talents. It would be nice to have a full blown talent tree selection.

If you want to assist with the GUI, I suggest you make a completely new GUI with Java. I would also like platform independent GUI, I would have done that, but only tool I know how to make GUIs is VC++.

The GUI just needs to create the config file for the enhsim.exe(or whatever the name is in other platforms). You could have a box where to define the enhsim executable, like I have the directory box in EnhSimGui. The problems you mentioned with armory import are not so big. You can handle the stats as you see fit, just when you press simulate button, create the config file and run the enhsim,

I'm not very interested in the Java port of the sim. As you said, it would be great for platform indepence, but bad for speed. I don't think it's too bad to compile the sim if you have Mac or Linux. Of course, there is always someone who don't know how to do that. Well, that is the risk you took, when you chose your platform. No offense to Mac/Linux guys, just stating the fact. I would have done the sim in Java, if it were anywhere near the speed of C++. Actually, the reason I started this project in the first place, was that Yo's sim was so slow.

tukez · 09/17/08, 10:45 AM

Originally Posted by Levva

Are you sure the tooltip isn't just showing the current value as modified by talents or equipment effects? What value does it give when you have no talents and naked? I'm at work so can't test this on beta at present.

I don't think there are any talents affecting the WF ap bonus? I took off Totem of the Astral Winds, still 475.

Malan · 09/17/08, 10:52 AM

Originally Posted by tukez

I'm not very interested in the Java port of the sim..

A java gui front end at least would still keep the best of both worlds.

Levva · 09/17/08, 1:30 PM

Originally Posted by Malan

A java gui front end at least would still keep the best of both worlds.

I am happy to have a bash at doing a Java GUI producing a plain text file at the end of it and/or calling the .exe is straight forward. I'm on holiday in Spain (my parents retired to the sun there so nice free accomodation) next week and so will have a lot of time by the pool with my laptop. Also my guild has decided to stop raiding now that WotLK date is out so I've got plenty of time to throw something together between now and then.

The problem is though Malan that the best a Java GUI could do is to create the .txt config and call the enhsim.exe file. If the enhsim.exe file is compiled for a PC it still won't run on a Mac regardless of how good the Java GUI is. The Java GUI can't make a PC .exe work on a Mac.

tukez · 09/17/08, 1:33 PM

Originally Posted by Levva

I am happy to have a bash at doing a Java GUI producing a plain text file at the end of it and/or calling the .exe is straight forward. I'm on holiday in Spain (my parents retired to the sun there so nice free accomodation) next week and so will have a lot of time by the pool with my laptop. Also my guild has decided to stop raiding now that WotLK date is out so I've got plenty of time to throw something together between now and then.

The problem is though Malan that the best a Java GUI could do is to create the .txt config and call the enhsim.exe file. If the enhsim.exe file is compiled for a PC it still won't run on a Mac regardless of how good the Java GUI is. The Java GUI can't make a PC .exe work on a Mac.

As I said, you could add a box in the GUI, where the user defines the path and name of executable file. Windows user inputs enhsim.exe and Mac/Linux user inputs something else. I think that should work?

Rouncer · 09/17/08, 1:44 PM

Originally Posted by Levva

Are you sure the tooltip isn't just showing the current value as modified by talents or equipment effects? What value does it give when you have no talents and naked? I'm at work so can't test this on beta at present.

Just don't worry about anything on the Beta till the next patch.

We've been promised a working Windfury among all the other things and I am dying to see if the functionality is the same as current or if the "less mathy" rework has been instituted.

Probably going to need to repeat the previous stormstrike test to check the proc rate as well as figuring out some way to determine if the cooldown is the same and if it is still linked between the 2 hands. I'm wondering if they aren't going to change it to something where each hand has a 20% proc rate separate from the other and instead of a cooldown they just make it so that no 2 consecutive melee attacks can proc windfury (no factual basis for that, it's just a hunch).

At least with the cheap respecs and the targeting dummies on the Beta it should be really easy to test everything.

Malan · 09/17/08, 2:02 PM

Originally Posted by Levva

The problem is though Malan that the best a Java GUI could do is to create the .txt config and call the enhsim.exe file. If the enhsim.exe file is compiled for a PC it still won't run on a Mac regardless of how good the Java GUI is. The Java GUI can't make a PC .exe work on a Mac.

With a make file or an ant build script we could easily set the target of the gui to run the proper binary.

At any rate the simulation itself should really just be a method called by the gui, not a seperate process launched by the gui.

mek · 09/17/08, 6:11 PM

It seems there is a bit of an underlying issue with WF/FT simulation... namely that WF/WF currently (or at least in live) enjoys a "bug" where its 18% proc rate is checked twice (once per hand) regardless of which hand hits, causing an effective 36% proc rate. This was noticed quickly in the early TBC days as WF procced far more often, even accounting for increased hits, than its previous 2h behaviour accounted for. (I can dig up the tests, they are on these forums somewhere..)

Is this accounted for in current simulations?

edit: Nevermind, I just went digging through your code and in fact it is. I'm still going to bring it up with Blizz as it may be devaluing the intended power of WF/FT.

Levva · 09/17/08, 6:12 PM

Originally Posted by Malan

With a make file or an ant build script we could easily set the target of the gui to run the proper binary.

At any rate the simulation itself should really just be a method called by the gui, not a seperate process launched by the gui.

However as Tukez sim is in C++ and WILL be a separate .exe the only thing a Java GUI could do would be to launch a separate process. Unless we can do some shell embedding or some other clever stuff.

Perhaps the simplest would be that the Java GUI could be packaged with PC & Mac exes, so it was distributed as a working package. The bleeding edge stuff would be on the PC and what Tukez put on the google site. So that it would still be possible for technically competent people to compile and replace the exe in the package with newer versions.

As a first stage my only attempt would be to mimic the existing GUI and be able to load, edit and save the config files and calling an external exe. Getting it to this stage will be a sizable initial task. After that I would look at replacing the talents section with importing Wowhead & Blizzard talent trees. ie: specify a URL and it could import the tree. Maybe even embed a browser view to display it on a separate tab. ie: so the talents on a separate tab could be a limited browser view of the wowhead or blizzard talent tree. No navigation just a tree to allow you to visually change the talents.

Further features would build on that. First obvious stage is to include importing talents from the Armory as if it supports Blizzard tree import then getting the URL from the Armory is easy just reading the URL from the Armory XML sheet. Ofc fairly simple the real work here is dealing with all the protocol crap wrapped up in reading the XML from the Armory.

I could then move to reading the rest of the armory data and populating the extra fields replacing the input boxes with an enter character and realm selection.

It does strike me I'd need a text window for editing any settings it doesn't know how to deal with. eg: We get a super new glyph that Tukez adds to the sim "Imp.Windfury Weapon - grants 1 additional WF attack" (actually having thought of that someone on the US beta go add that as a suggestion NOW. A WF proccing 3 extra attacks would be great).

If the GUI can't handle new parameters it means manually editing the config file until the next update. At least having a "I don't know how to handle these parameters" section it would allow editing them in the GUI rather than having to resort to a text editor. It also means that Tukez can release new versions without worrying about having features the GUI doesn't understand.

Levva · 09/17/08, 7:02 PM

Finally getting round to trying the sim with my own personal values so going through each and every field. I noted there was no talent selection for Enhancing Totems to give +15% to SoE & FT totems. Is this an oversight or is it assumed it will be taken? Similarly with Imp.WF totem? Am I just missing the point and the GUI version doesn't allow altering these? Or is it assumed you max them both? What happens if someone doesn't max them both?

Whilst I'm on totems what totems are we assuming the shammy uses? How does the sim calculate the effects of totems? Is it calculating the Lvl 70 equivalent totems or lvl 80 equivalent totems? It does know about totems doesn't it? The source totems.cpp only suggests it looks at the relic slot totem. Is it rolled into the Buffs section so you need to manually edit your totem buff values?

Levva · 09/17/08, 7:03 PM

Originally Posted by mek

It seems there is a bit of an underlying issue with WF/FT simulation... namely that WF/WF currently (or at least in live) enjoys a "bug" where its 18% proc rate is checked twice (once per hand) regardless of which hand hits, causing an effective 36% proc rate. This was noticed quickly in the early TBC days as WF procced far more often, even accounting for increased hits, than its previous 2h behaviour accounted for. (I can dig up the tests, they are on these forums somewhere..)

Is this accounted for in current simulations?

edit: Nevermind, I just went digging through your code and in fact it is. I'm still going to bring it up with Blizz as it may be devaluing the intended power of WF/FT.

If you are successful in getting Blizzard to change this you will earn the undying hatred of all Enh Shammy's out there. It would be a big nerf to half our WF proc chance, which is what you suggest Blizzard should do.

mek · 09/17/08, 7:09 PM

Well, if WF/FT is our new setup of choice, the quirky proc rate of WF/WF is irrelevant, except so far as it is being incorrectly modeled internally by Blizzard, which may affect their balancing of the DPS of WF/FT. The time for these sorts of changes is in beta, though admittedly it's getting startingly late and enhancement still needs a lot of work.

Again, this may all be irrelevant, we need to see how WF is implemented next build. If we're really lucky they have recoded the whole damn thing to be "less mathy" and these sorts of quirks will already have been ironed out.

Pitbuller · 09/17/08, 7:18 PM

Levva:
70lvl totems and raid buffs.

armor_debuff_major              2600/2600
armor_debuff_minor              610/610
physical_vulnerability_debuff   4.0/4.0
melee_haste_buff                20.0/20.0
melee_crit_chance_buff          5.0/5.0
attack_power_buff_flat          381/381
attack_power_buff_multiplier    0/99.7
spell_haste_buff                5.0/5.0
spell_crit_chance_buff          5.0/5.0
spell_crit_chance_debuff        10.0/10.0
spell_damage_debuff             10.0/10.0
spellpower_buff                 150/150
spell_hit_chance_debuff         3.0/3.0
haste_buff                      3.0/3.0
percentage_damage_increase      3.0/3.0
crit_chance_debuff              3.0/3.0
stat_multiplier                 10.0/10.0
stat_add_buff                   19/19
agi_and_strength_buff           98/98
intellect_buff                  40/40

Only what matter is what kind and how big buffs raid will offer to you.

Tukez: Physical_vulnerability_debuff should be only 2.0/2.0.

tukez · 09/17/08, 7:30 PM

Originally Posted by Levva

Finally getting round to trying the sim with my own personal values so going through each and every field. I noted there was no talent selection for Enhancing Totems to give +15% to SoE & FT totems. Is this an oversight or is it assumed it will be taken? Similarly with Imp.WF totem? Am I just missing the point and the GUI version doesn't allow altering these? Or is it assumed you max them both? What happens if someone doesn't max them both?

Whilst I'm on totems what totems are we assuming the shammy uses? How does the sim calculate the effects of totems? Is it calculating the Lvl 70 equivalent totems or lvl 80 equivalent totems? It does know about totems doesn't it? The source totems.cpp only suggests it looks at the relic slot totem. Is it rolled into the Buffs section so you need to manually edit your totem buff values?

As Pitbuller already mentioned: if you think something is missing, first take a look at the buffs section and think, could it be already included there.

Levva · 09/17/08, 7:36 PM

@Pitbuller : Ah ofc this makes a lot more sense now that I think about it and I suddenly noticed the tooltips on the GUI for whatever reason they hadn't popped up before. Having a configurable number is easier to modify for level so is the way to go.

If I get something going with a Java GUI I would be tempted to go with a "basic" and "advanced" tabs. Basic would have the tick boxes I'm using these totems and have these buffs. Advanced would be the highly configurable numbers. I'd only be interested in aiming it at the lvl 80 stuff though as by the time I've got something viable the timescale for lvl 70 on patch 3.0 raiding will be negligible. So it seems pointless writing a GUI to be user friendly for that very limited "70 on patch 3.0" market. I'd rather have any user friendly side of things aimed at lvl 80 stuff.

The first aim will still be to replicate the exisiting sim and package it for use with both PC & Mac clients.

@mek : I suppose you have a point if the balancing is based on a flawed mechanic it is indeed better that they fix it, as long as the nett effect is not to nerf our dps I suppose people will still be happy.

It will be interesting tomorrow or Friday when they will probably put up the new patch to see if indeed they have held good to the promise of a less "mathy" WF. Might be a disappointment though for those of us that are heavily into the maths.

tukez · 09/17/08, 7:47 PM

0.9.7
-Fixed dual Executioner bug.
-Deathfrost enchant added.
-Guardian elixir slot added.
-Added elixirs: Elixir of Mastery, Guru's Elixir, Elixir of Mighty Agility, Elixir of Might Strength, Elixir of Draenic Wisdom.
-Changed physical vulnerability debuff default to 2.0%.

enhsim - Google Code

Deathfrost is static 8% on melee and 50% with spells, 25s cooldown(spells). It does not record the debuff uptime. If someone wants to have that, let me know and I'll do it. It requires some extra work, thats why I didn't do it now.

Just noticed, that I forgot to change the physical vulnerability debuff default from GUI.

Levva · 09/17/08, 7:53 PM

I'm in beta now and just bought 3 windfury weapon glyphs (some kind soul was selling them on AH for 1g each). I will now go and test what effect I get from stacking 3 of them if I can. I'll edit and update this msg with results.

Edit: Hmmmm, that sucks, after ages spent retrying to back into server after a crash then carefully trying to remove any other proccing effects - I went and got two new weapons so they had no enchants and removed trinkets, relic totem, no totems etc etc etc, to try to have as little proc effects as possible to isolate the effects of glyphs.

I then did some combat testing (I cant get to Dalaran yet so I cant use the training dummies) with my AP reduced to a lowly 1762 (lots of kit removed and crap weapons) I set about getting some numbers. I then used a single glyph and observed the changes on WF procs. All good so far but taking forever to establish good baselines.

I finally attempt to add a second WF weapon glyph to see if the effects are additive or multiplicative and what happens I get an error "That Glyph is already in use in another socket".

So we have an answer at least the glyphs are unique despite it not saying so on the tooltip. I've submitted a bug report saying it should say that on the tooltip.

So in reply to :

Originally Posted by tukez

Hey questions about glyphs. Can we use same type of glyph in multiple slots and do they stack? Can we use minor glyphs in major slot? Also, if you use Glyph of Flametongue Weapon and dual FT, do you get 4% spell crit? Is the Glyph of Stormstrike bonus damage additive or multiplicative to the existing 20%.

NO they are Unique-Equipped even though they don't say that on the tooltip. As an aside using them puts them in a slot and they cannot be removed only overwritten so they act exactly like a gem in that respect (ie: Unique-Equipped is an excellent tag as its identical to gem behaviour).

NO when you right click on a glyph to use it the appropriate slots light up, you then click on that slot to place it. The UI won't permit using the glyph in the wrong type of slot.

Not sure about flametounge on two weapons with dual FT would need to buy the glyph but only seller is selling it for 1000g and I didn't transfer my bank alt. On live I send my bank alt my spare cash to resist temptations its like putting money in a savings account in real life - if its not in my wallet I'm not tempted to spend it

No SS glyphs on the AH sorry so can't answer last part.

It creates a slight annoyance for the sim you need to prevent people using multiple copies - perhaps the first thing the sim needs to do before it starts churning numbers is to validate the config, this could go into the validation routine as a check. Forgive me if you already validate the config I've not studied the code yet.

Malan · 09/17/08, 10:25 PM

Tukez - Glyphs do not stack I checked today, you can have exactly 1 of each glyph (3 total). I have all the Enhancement glyphs ready to go for use once they fix the bugs on windfury. Not going to test the Stormstrike one until they make the change for Stormstrike to be fire/frost/nature.

seniac · 09/17/08, 10:33 PM

Originally Posted by Levva

However as Tukez sim is in C++ and WILL be a separate .exe the only thing a Java GUI could do would be to launch a separate process. Unless we can do some shell embedding or some other clever stuff.

I think the best way to make a cross platform GUI is to use a framework like QT.

Malan · 09/17/08, 10:41 PM

Originally Posted by Levva

However as Tukez sim is in C++ and WILL be a separate .exe the only thing a Java GUI could do would be to launch a separate process. Unless we can do some shell embedding or some other clever stuff.

Say what?

You can import C++ code into java. It's called native integration and its been in the JDK since v1.1. The software that I develop on at my job is built around this, the simulation I work on uses a C and C++ terrain database and a java sim engine/gui. You don't need to "call a binary" to do this.

Pitbuller · 09/18/08, 5:02 AM

Tukez: Two minor changes to sim.
Lava Lash:

You charge your off-hand weapon with lava, instantly dealing 100% off-hand Weapon damage.
Damage is increased by 25% if your off-hand weapon is enchanted with Flametongue.
4% of base mana, 5 yd range, Instant cast, 6 sec cooldown

Thundering Strikes Rank 5:

Improves your chance to get a critical strike with all spells and attacks by 5%.

Lavaburst get another rank but is level 80 and everything else in sim is 70lvl stuff.

Edit: If you add 80lvl ranks and buffs make it optional. Lot's of us still wan't use sim at 70lvl.

fauxpas · 09/18/08, 5:25 AM

Now that you mention it .. a switch for 70/80 would be nice .. once all the ranks and details are out, anyway

Levva · 09/18/08, 9:11 AM

Originally Posted by Malan

Say what?

You can import C++ code into java. It's called native integration and its been in the JDK since v1.1. The software that I develop on at my job is built around this, the simulation I work on uses a C and C++ terrain database and a java sim engine/gui. You don't need to "call a binary" to do this.

Yeah I was vaguely aware that this existed although I've never had reason to code for it as I have no C or C++ code that I use. A PM with url details of any examples would be helpful to get me up to speed. Thanks.

Malan · 09/18/08, 10:09 AM

Just google for "native code java" and you'll get loads of examples.

Tukez - make sure you remove the ability to stack glyphs.

tukez · 09/18/08, 10:24 AM

0.9.9
-Changed Lava Lash cooldown to 6s and damage multiplier to 100%.
-Changed Lava Burst mana cost to 10%.

enhsim - Google Code

Thundering Strikers: No need to change anything, as it is passive bonus, which shows on the char sheet.
Glyphs: I didn't change anything yet, just added comment/tooltip, which says that you cannot use same type of glyph in multiple slots.