EnhSim, DPS simulator - Page 94

Rouncer · 08/04/09, 9:30 AM

Originally Posted by Vespasian

Just wondering when we might expect an update that includes the changes to Spirit Wolves' expertise?

Probably about the time someone actually tests and defines exactly how the wolves get expertise from our stats.

Originally Posted by Patchnotes

All pets now receive 40% of their master's resilience and 100% of their master's spell penetration. In addition, if a player is at their appropriate spell hit chance or hit chance maximum, their pet will be at the maximum for spell hit chance, hit chance, and expertise. If they are below the maximum, their pet will be proportionately below those maximums.

The question is which hit chance? We should all be capped for spells but as Dual Wielders we are still uncapped for white attacks. Does that mean that our wolves are also uncapped for melee attacks or are they capped because we have capped our specials and would be capped if we were using a single weapon? I haven't seen any testing to date to define exactly how the system works for us and that is what really needs to be done before the sim can be updated.

Neon_Knightmare · 08/05/09, 7:51 AM

I was just tinkering with this on live, and it does appear that our spirit wolves' hit and expertise scale in proportion to where our character stands with relation to the melee special hit cap. I did a few dummy tests -- with an admittedly small sample size -- and determined the following:

- 1. They do not inherit the 6% melee hit from Dual Wield Specialization. At 114 hit rating, which would put them above 9% melee hit with the talent if they were indeed affected, Recount recorded misses.

- 2. They do not inherit the character's expertise. With 31 expertise skill (courtesy of the changes to the orc racial) and the same 114 hit rating, Recount also recorded dodges.

- 3. They inherit melee hit directly. At 267 hit rating, Recount recorded no misses over several attempts (~80 attacks on average).

- 4. Their expertise is based on the player's melee hit (rather than expertise) rating. At 267 hit rating, with 9/9 expertise, Recount recorded no dodges over several attempts. (Same trials as #3.)

Based on this data, it looks like they are (still) treated as a physical DPS class pet, and scale with melee hit rating up to 8%, as has been previously confirmed. This amount of hit also gives them 6.5% worth of dodge negation. I'd hardly call my hour or so of tests thorough enough to be truly conclusive, but it looks promising -- looks like we don't have to lose sleep over our pets needing 446 (or more) hit rating to be expertise-capped.

Edit: Corrected "spell" hit cap to "melee special." Doh.

Zensai · 08/05/09, 11:04 AM

I've seen a significant amount of DPS increase from the spirit wolves last night while raiding. And every fight I was alot higher DPS wise then normally. I was running with my current gear in armory except for my helm. Since they fixed Boundless Gaze, I was running with that, which put me at ~480 hit. Its also worth mentioning, that Shamans can now Bloodlust while Sated. So if you have another shaman to coordinate with you can always have them lust for your 2nd cast of wolves.

I'm curious if anyone experienced a huge DPS bump? It feels like the puppies are doing a considerable more dmg. Because of UI problems, I didn't get to dig through recount. But I'll post my results after digging through WOL/WWS.

Ulduar 25m. Only thing left are Algalon, General, and Yogg. The rest were killed with all hardmodes. Below are the stats on my wolves.

Spirit Wolf
Dmg Done: 873999
Hits: 861
Avg Hit: 651
Crit Hits: 131
Avg Crit Hit: 1300
Blocks: 6
Block Avg: 570.2
Glances: 286
Glance Avg: 488.1
Absorbs: 452
Misses: 2
Parrys: 4

dedmonwakeen · 08/05/09, 12:33 PM

We found the following simple formula to be reasonably accurate (driven by hunter pet testing).

struct pet_t : public player_t
{
  std::string full_name_str;
  player_t* owner;
  pet_t* next_pet;

  <snip> 

  virtual double composite_attack_expertise()
  {
    if ( sim -> P320 )
      return owner -> composite_attack_hit() * 6.5 / 8.0;
    else
      return player_t::composite_attack_expertise();
  }
}

Rouncer · 08/05/09, 12:41 PM

Originally Posted by Zensai

I was running with my current gear in armory except for my helm. Since they fixed Boundless Gaze, I was running with that, which put me at ~480 hit.

The Armory hasn't been updated yet, what are the new stats on Boundless Gaze?

Zensai · 08/05/09, 1:02 PM

Originally Posted by Rouncer

The Armory hasn't been updated yet, what are the new stats on Boundless Gaze?

1100 Armor
70 AGI
100 STA
68 INT
Meta
Blue
66 HIT
224 AP
69 CRIT

Sylvand · 08/05/09, 10:16 PM

I'll try to get these in this week if not tonight:

- wolf expertise changes
- new on-use trinket updates
- checking for set bonus duplicates

PM me if I'm missing anything.

Stelmaria · 08/06/09, 7:14 AM

I have recently changed my off-spec from Elemental to Enhancement and been using Rawr in conjunction with Enhsim quite a lot. Since yesterday however I have begun to see (very small but consistently) negative values for Mana and Spirit. If I understood the EP-Help on the Enhsim-Homepage correctly, the simulator calculates a baseline of DPS, adds the amount specified in the EP-Tab to one stat and then calculates the new DPS. But how can more Mana or more Spirit lower my DPS on its own?

Another thing I was wondering about is why Enhsim gives me the highest DPS with 32AP gems. Being expertise-capped and close to the white hit-cap the AP-Gems get the highest EP-rating, yet I seem to remember that gemming AP was considered a bad choice for Enhancer, but I'm not sure, where i read that.

Nevets_69 · 08/06/09, 9:47 AM

Originally Posted by Stelmaria

... yet I seem to remember that gemming AP was considered a bad choice for Enhancer, but I'm not sure, where i read that.

You're likely thinking of the Burning Crusade days when shamans still got 2 AP per 1 Strength, so gemming for AP was always worse than gemming for strength. Since 3.0 we get 1 AP per 1 strength and 1 agi, and as a result of us doing significantly more magic damage, AP is always better than strength, and nearly always better than agility.

kevinck · 08/06/09, 11:02 AM

Who (if anyone) is watching the compatability between Rawr's output and Enhsim's input? Just wondering if it's the Rawr people, or the Enhsim people, or if those two groups are now one in the same.

One of the reasons I ask is because of the new orc racial to get expertise from fist weapons. Rawr now correctly internally adds this expertise if you use a fist weapon. When you export stats to enhsim config file, Rawr sets weapon type in the config file to '-'. The only options are '-' and 'axe'. And for expertise it outputs the real lower value, not the one increased by 5 for the racial. So when enhsim imports it does not see 'axe' and therefore does not add the extra expertise. So neither application is technically doing anything wrong. It's just something lost in the collaboration of what that config file should look like.

I guess ideally it would require a new entry for that field in Enhsim. But then that means a change to the gui. And I believe this thread mentions you don't have the source for the gui and are working on a brand new one that isn't done yet.

Luckily it's an easy work around for now to just manually change the weapon type to 'axe' after importing a config file.

kaoticz · 08/06/09, 12:01 PM

I've heard that the Totem of Electrifying Wind may have had a 20 second cooldown added to it during the PTR. Can anyone confirm this yes or no? If it does, it will need to be changed in the sim.

It would be nice to know ahead of time if we'd be wasting emblems of triumph to buy this since it's better (with no cooldown) than the Enhance version, Totem of Quaking Earth.

I don't claim to be a math wizard and I'm completely unsure as to the proper way to model an estimation of the totems worth should it have a 20 second cooldown, but my assumption would be:

12 sec uptime / 20 sec cooldown = 60% uptime assuming a lightning bolt lands right when the 20 second cooldown ends and that the 70% proc chance occurs, meaning ~120 constant haste value from the totem.

Unless you can obtain a value for haste below 1.7, it would still be slightly better than the Enhance totem.

Please correct my math/assumptions if I am wrong

jonnaei · 08/06/09, 12:43 PM

That 60% uptime is also assuming a 100% proc rate outside of the ICD, which is not the case. Someone on Wowhead is saying 70% proc rate, though I'm not sure where they got that.

Deathicle · 08/06/09, 1:06 PM

Originally Posted by jonnaei

That 60% uptime is also assuming a 100% proc rate outside of the ICD, which is not the case. Someone on Wowhead is saying 70% proc rate, though I'm not sure where they got that.

By clicking on the effect listed on WoW Head, it quite clearly states it has a 70% proc chance. Now the only question is what is the ICD - if any.

Vespasian · 08/06/09, 10:52 PM

Small request Sylvand- when you do your next update, are you able to enable item ID numbers for trinkets and totems? It will certainly make RAWR exporting much simpler, as RAWR currently copies over item IDs and we are forced to continuously re-type the names of totems and trinkets.

cryolithic · 08/07/09, 5:59 AM

Originally Posted by Levva

If you have access to the source can you zip that up and post it somewhere. I can then add it to the EnhSim website and update it for v1.8.2.

I've got the disassembled code, but it needs some cleanup before it will compile. Not sure how long it would take me to go through (lots of crap calls that need to be fixed) as I don't have a lot of time, but I can make what is here available if you want.

Levva · 08/07/09, 6:15 AM

Originally Posted by kevinck

Who (if anyone) is watching the compatability between Rawr's output and Enhsim's input? Just wondering if it's the Rawr people, or the Enhsim people, or if those two groups are now one in the same.

One of the reasons I ask is because of the new orc racial to get expertise from fist weapons. Rawr now correctly internally adds this expertise if you use a fist weapon. When you export stats to enhsim config file, Rawr sets weapon type in the config file to '-'. The only options are '-' and 'axe'. And for expertise it outputs the real lower value, not the one increased by 5 for the racial. So when enhsim imports it does not see 'axe' and therefore does not add the extra expertise. So neither application is technically doing anything wrong. It's just something lost in the collaboration of what that config file should look like.

I guess ideally it would require a new entry for that field in Enhsim. But then that means a change to the gui. And I believe this thread mentions you don't have the source for the gui and are working on a brand new one that isn't done yet.

Luckily it's an easy work around for now to just manually change the weapon type to 'axe' after importing a config file.

<----(Levva) = Rawr people, well as far as Enhancement Shaman module is concerned.

AH thanks I forgot to update the export to Enhsim. Fixed now for next version. You are right however that in the GUI it won't update the drop down correctly. Cryolithic if you can PM me a zip file or something so I can post it on the EnhSim website so we can update it. I understand it may require some tiding up.

Syvland I take it that the config imports in enhsim now recognises "fist" as a valid choice? Or it will with v1.8.3?

Originally Posted by Vespasian

Small request Sylvand- when you do your next update, are you able to enable item ID numbers for trinkets and totems? It will certainly make RAWR exporting much simpler, as RAWR currently copies over item IDs and we are forced to continuously re-type the names of totems and trinkets.

No Vespasian this is ALREADY in EnhSim if you are retyping names in the config file you are doing it wrong. Tukez specifically added this in v1.6.something. So that new trinkets etc didn't depend on new versions of Rawr/ShockAndAwe to work. All that was needed was a new EnhSim. This decoupled the development cycle so that only the sim needed to be updated to use the new item ids.

What I will do however is in the GUI if we get the source working is to display the TEXT rather then the IDs. However behind the scenes in the actual config file the IDs are what you want to have.

Raiix - Myla · 08/07/09, 9:47 AM

There are 3 things that I"m concerned about:

1. Please don"t forget the changes to the troll racial (berserk now always 20% haste, no scaling with health anymore) for the next update of the simulator.

2. Can someone already figure out how the new totems (melee and elemental) perform compared to dueling, hex, gladiator"s?

3. With the new totem bar I don"t see my spirit wolfs' control bar anymore (standard ui). Does someone have the same problem? Is there a hotkey for activating sprint?

• Glayde · 08/07/09, 10:24 AM

I've used the fluidframes mod to move the new totem bar from where it is (right on top of my pet bars).

FluidFrames : WoWInterface Downloads : Miscellaneous

Basically you mouse over whatever frame you want to move, and toggle it movable/locked with a key you define (I use * on the numpad).

Just make sure you select the entire frame, and not just a child object or you'll do something like move only the pullup arrow from the bar which will break it. (If you do mess up just delete the account/server/char/saved variable/fluidframes.lua file and start over).

cryolithic · 08/07/09, 4:46 PM

I've probably missed it in the thread here, but are the EP values from enhsim completely out to lunch? I'm getting values like 2.47 for Int, which seems outrageous. I'm not wearing leather and don't have mana issues either. Is it weighting the crit from int as Crit rather than just Spell Crit?

Sylvand · 08/07/09, 5:45 PM

Originally Posted by cryolithic

I've probably missed it in the thread here, but are the EP values from enhsim completely out to lunch? I'm getting values like 2.47 for Int, which seems outrageous. I'm not wearing leather and don't have mana issues either. Is it weighting the crit from int as Crit rather than just Spell Crit?

Generally they seem normal to me. If you look at the stats from a normal run (they aren't shown for EP calcs) it may tell you why int is so high. If it's not obvious go ahead and post your config/results in this thread so folks can take a look. Potentially it could be something like forgetting to put shamanistic rage in the rotation/etc.

cryolithic · 08/07/09, 8:41 PM

ahh this might be it:
Out of mana time 1.36%

Funny thing though, is I'm never out of mana on fights, though I imagine this is more to me failing at my rotation than anything else...

cryolithic · 08/07/09, 11:42 PM

I guess this leads to the next question...if I'm actually running into oom issues on one or two fights, is it really worth it to change out an AP gem for Int? My gut instinct is no, as most fights have too much down time for it to really matter overall.

Xoya · 08/08/09, 1:26 AM

Just turn off mana simulation. Easiest way to get around that.

Falcon213 · 08/08/09, 3:06 AM

Originally Posted by cryolithic

I guess this leads to the next question...if I'm actually running into oom issues on one or two fights, is it really worth it to change out an AP gem for Int? My gut instinct is no, as most fights have too much down time for it to really matter overall.

Do you not have Shamanistic Rage in your priority list? Mana should not be a problem unless you're running a ton of leather with 0/2 imp SS.

cryolithic · 08/08/09, 3:44 AM

No leather at all with 0/2 Imp SS.

Thanks for the tip on the mana simulation, that's got int more inline with what I think it should be.