EnhSim, DPS simulator - Page 97

Schwolop · 08/20/09, 9:12 PM

Originally Posted by dedmonwakeen

Another way to get slight variation in combat length is to limit the sim by target health.

Except that then people would need to work out beforehand how much health to allocate to their simulated boss, etc. Perhaps run the sim as normal for a time duration, and when this duration is elapsed switch to a target health of a hundred thousand or so.

If you go with variation of the fight time idea, I wouldn't advocate randomly adjusting the fight time, but would instead span the range of times from a particular distribution (flat, gaussian, or whatever). A set of random fight times has the potential to be misleading, just like a set of fights all of the same length can be. If we have a fixed distribution of times over the whole range then we can be sure that we've sampled fight lengths at enough of the relevant points.

dedmonwakeen · 08/20/09, 9:33 PM

Originally Posted by Schwolop

Except that then people would need to work out beforehand how much health to allocate to their simulated boss, etc. Perhaps run the sim as normal for a time duration, and when this duration is elapsed switch to a target health of a hundred thousand or so.

Halfway through the first iteration you calculate target health based upon damage done.
At the end of every iteration, you recalculate with a dampening factor.

void target_t::recalculate_health()
{
  if ( sim -> max_time == 0 ) return;

  if ( initial_health == 0 )
  {
    current_health = total_dmg;
    initial_health = current_health * ( sim -> max_time / sim -> current_time );
  }
  else
  {
    double delta_time = sim -> current_time - sim -> max_time;
    delta_time /= sim -> current_iteration + 1; // dampening factor

    double factor = 1 - ( delta_time / sim -> max_time );
    if ( factor > 1.5 ) factor = 1.5;
    if ( factor < 0.5 ) factor = 0.5;

    initial_health *= factor;
  }

  if ( sim -> debug ) log_t::output( sim, "Target initial health calculated to be %.0f", initial_health );
}

Andrast · 08/21/09, 4:21 AM

The example of haste is a tricky one because of its interaction with the windfury cooldown.

I'll take my current output as an example. This is with a Haste EP step of 20 to mimic the insertion of a single epic haste gem (which is rather contrived but bear with me):

EP                        value     DPS       total DPS      difference

baseline                                      7523.60
ap                        1.00      0.65      7654.22        130.62
crit rating               1.54      1.01      7553.77        30.17
hit rating                1.61      1.05      7555.09        31.48
expertise rating          0.00      0.00      0.00           -7523.60
haste rating              1.47      0.96      7542.78        19.17
armor penetration rating  1.43      0.93      7551.61        28.00
spellpower                1.00      0.65      7621.62        98.01
mh dps                    5.39      3.52      7550.00        26.40
oh dps                    1.83      1.20      7532.58        8.97

As you can see this shows quite a low value for haste. Increasing this value to mimic a trinket proc of, say, 300 haste gives:

EP                        value     DPS       total DPS      difference

baseline                                      7522.27
ap                        1.00      0.65      7653.18        130.91
crit rating               1.75      1.14      7556.57        34.30
hit rating                1.65      1.08      7554.76        32.49
expertise rating          0.00      0.00      0.00           -7522.27
haste rating              2.14      1.40      7941.61        419.34
armor penetration rating  1.45      0.95      7550.77        28.50
spellpower                0.97      0.64      7617.89        95.62
mh dps                    4.92      3.22      7546.43        24.16
oh dps                    2.49      1.63      7534.51        12.24

The important thing here is to understand, as many of you already do, that adding 300 haste is proportionally far more beneficial than adding 20 haste.

Originally Posted by Levva

Oh whilst I'm at it. Sylvand I was thinking that for EP value outputs it would be a good idea to include "Best Gem values" at the bottom of that so you list ...

Bright Cardinal Ruby (40 AP) : 40 EP
Delicate Cardinal Ruby (20 Agi) : X EP
Quick King's Amber (20 Haste) : X EP
Smooth King's Amber (20 Crit) : X EP
Runed Cardinal Ruby (23 Spellpower) : X EP etc.

Because of the example I put above I'd suggest not doing this. Using exactly the same gear and just by changing the EP step value for Haste I drastically altered the "best Gem". From experience we know that gemming AP is generally the way to go. Putting the "Best Gem Values" at the bottom on the enhsim output would be overly confusing to newer users, and really isn't needed for anyone else.

For the newest enhance shaman the best thing to do would be to point them towards the think-tank entry and to the BiS gear list post, and perhaps develop some quick tutorials on how to use Rawr and Enhsim.

Levva · 08/21/09, 9:49 AM

Originally Posted by Andrast

The example of haste is a tricky one because of its interaction with the windfury cooldown.

The important thing here is to understand, as many of you already do, that adding 300 haste is proportionally far more beneficial than adding 20 haste.

Because of the example I put above I'd suggest not doing this. Using exactly the same gear and just by changing the EP step value for Haste I drastically altered the "best Gem". From experience we know that gemming AP is generally the way to go. Putting the "Best Gem Values" at the bottom on the enhsim output would be overly confusing to newer users, and really isn't needed for anyone else.

For the newest enhance shaman the best thing to do would be to point them towards the think-tank entry and to the BiS gear list post, and perhaps develop some quick tutorials on how to use Rawr and Enhsim.

Really all you proved there is that EP values are inherently volatile and an illusion, haste doubly so (not unlike time & lunchtime - bonus points to those that get the reference).

It would be an interesting exercise to map haste EP step values to haste EP results given say the result from the BiS thread and step it from 10 in steps of 10 and plot the resultant EP curve. My guess from partial trials is you will get a very wavy line.

bobxii · 08/21/09, 2:13 PM

Originally Posted by Levva

It would be an interesting exercise to map haste EP step values to haste EP results given say the result from the BiS thread and step it from 10 in steps of 10 and plot the resultant EP curve. My guess from partial trials is you will get a very wavy line.

I came here just now to post something very similar to this:

It would be really neat if enhsim (or a script utilizing it) had a function that automagically found the local DPS maximum for regemming haste over crit or AP; so literally subtract X crit/2XAP, add X haste, compare DPS, rinse+repeat. This gets around the whole EP problem with haste (is the haste you have most valuable when the EP value is high, or does it only get high when you have the previous "less-worthful" haste to get there?) and goes for what we really want - DPS.

Of course it would be highly interesting to have a tool that parses enhsim's output to begin with (which you'd need to perform the above), to perform the above analyses into haste's value over the haste coordinate.

clliche · 08/21/09, 2:30 PM

I have a quick question, when LS is put into the rotation, does Enhsim just refresh it every time nothing else is on available on the list or does it refresh at a certain number of charges?

Typeronin · 08/22/09, 12:46 AM

Originally Posted by clliche

I have a quick question, when LS is put into the rotation, does Enhsim just refresh it every time nothing else is on available on the list or does it refresh at a certain number of charges?

I have LS refresh priority after magma totem and before lava lash...although I tend to hit it every time I have nothing to do.

Cookiemonster · 08/22/09, 1:58 AM

For some reason I keep getting a strange message and I cant seem to find out whats causing it. The message is "Could not open enhsim_ep_exports.txt". I find reinstalling it works sometimes but I'd rather find a more permanent solution. I'm also wondering if Enhsim is going to be getting an update anytime soon for new items and things?

Rouncer · 08/22/09, 4:51 AM

Originally Posted by Malan

I think you've mixed up those terms. As noted above in the wiki link, precision relates to the repeatability of the data. Repeated simulation with the same inputs produces fairly precise data - the output values of dps and EP values aren't going to dramatically change from one run to another as long as the inputs are fixed.

I very much could have mixed up the terms and stated as much too, but the basic concept is sound in any event. You have to make choices between being incredibly accurate and incredibly precise and it is finding a proper compromise point that really matters. I guess we could continue the discussion further but it gets into the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principal and doesn't really seem necessary to take it to that level [i](reading "Black Hole War" lately and I am 5 shots of So Ju and 3 beers in at the moment)[i].

bobxii · 08/22/09, 3:53 PM

Originally Posted by Rouncer

I very much could have mixed up the terms and stated as much too, but the basic concept is sound in any event. You have to make choices between being incredibly accurate and incredibly precise and it is finding a proper compromise point that really matters. I guess we could continue the discussion further but it gets into the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principal and doesn't really seem necessary to take it to that level [i](reading "Black Hole War" lately and I am 5 shots of So Ju and 3 beers in at the moment)[i].

lol this isn't quantum mechanics we're talking here...! But, you have the idea mostly correct: longer sim times (repeats) yield more average and better signal to noise (signal being an actual DPS change, noise being the random +- inherent to to the sim) ratio with no artifacting; increasing the EP jump also drastically increases signal to noise, but has the potential to render the information useless as it doesn't describe the system you're interested in anymore.

thordinrokbeard · 08/23/09, 9:17 PM

I'm a first time user of enhsim...and whenever I hit simulate or calculate EP values, the dos window comes up but it doesn't do anything. I have enhsim.exe as the path file. Was wondering if there was a way to fix this issue.

Malan · 08/24/09, 12:12 AM

Originally Posted by Rouncer

You have to make choices between being incredibly accurate and incredibly precise and it is finding a proper compromise point that really matters. I guess we could continue the discussion further but it gets into the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principal

Huh? Not at all. It's perfectly reasonable to try to achieve both precision and accuracy in experimentation. They are not mutually exclusive.

Rouncer · 08/24/09, 1:04 AM

Originally Posted by Malan

Huh? Not at all. It's perfectly reasonable to try to achieve both precision and accuracy in experimentation. They are not mutually exclusive.

You are still missing my point. It's a matter of degrees. You can't be perfectly accurate and perfectly precise, you can only ever have a compromise between the two stats. Exclusivity is not what I was saying but you always do have to find a proper compromise point for the results to be relevant.

EnhSim, DPS simulator

If you run ranges like that you will get very precise results in that they will be repeatable with a small range of variation but how accurate will they be? Real stat changes will be in the 2 digit range and not the 3 digit range so the accuracy will be low. Run with EP values set to a single gem and the results will be more accurate but how precise as variation between each individual run is going to be significant.

Big EP Range

### Saved by version 1.7.0 of EnhSimGUI

simulation_time                 5000
simulation_time_combatlog       30
combat_length                   10
report_count                    80
threads                         2
min_lag                         50
max_lag                         100
simulate_mana                   0

ep_precision                    2
ep_base_stat                    ap
ep_ap                           200
ep_crit_rating                  300
ep_hit_rating                   30
ep_expertise                    4
ep_haste_rating                 300
ep_armor_penetration_rating     300
ep_spellpower                   150
ep_dps                          7.5
ep_mana                         250
ep_spirit                       150
ep_mp5                          20

mh_auto_attack                  1
oh_auto_attack                  1
wait_ss_with_wf_cd              0.00
cast_ll_only_if_wf_on_cd        0
bloodlust_casters               1
sync_bloodlust_with_trinkets    0
cast_lvb_only_if_ed_left        15.0
cast_lvb_only_if_fsdots_left    4
cast_lvb_only_if_fs_active      1
cast_fs_only_if_dots_left       0
cast_ls_only_if_charges_left    3
cast_sr_only_if_mana_left       750
use_mana_potion_if_mana_left    3000

rotation_priority_count         10
rotation_priority1              SR
rotation_priority2              SW
rotation_priority3              MW5_LB
rotation_priority4              MW4_LB
rotation_priority5              ES_SS
rotation_priority6              SS
rotation_priority7              ES
rotation_priority8              MT
rotation_priority9              LL
rotation_priority10             LS

miss                            8.0
dodge                           6.5
glancing                        24.0
armor                           10645
spell_miss                      17.0
nature_resistance               0
fire_resistance                 0
frost_resistance                0
arcane_resistance               0
shadow_resistance               0

armor_debuff_major              20.0/20.0
armor_debuff_minor              5.0/5.0
physical_vulnerability_debuff   4.0/4.0
melee_haste_buff                16.0/16.0
melee_crit_chance_buff          5.0/5.0
attack_power_buff_flat          687/687
attack_power_buff_multiplier    0/99.7
spell_haste_buff                5.0/5.0
spell_crit_chance_buff          5.0/5.0
spell_crit_chance_debuff        5.0/5.0
spell_damage_debuff             13.0/13.0
spellpower_buff                 165/165
spell_hit_chance_debuff         3.0/3.0
haste_buff                      3.0/3.0
percentage_damage_increase      3.0/3.0
crit_chance_debuff              3.0/3.0
stat_multiplier                 10.0/10.0
stat_add_buff                   51/51
agi_and_strength_buff           178/178
intellect_buff                  60/60

replenishment                   1
water_shield                    0
mana_spring_totem               1
blessing_of_wisdom              1
judgement_of_wisdom             1

flask_elixir                    flask_of_endless_rage
guardian_elixir                 -
potion                          potion_of_speed
food                            fish_feast

###############################################################################
### Everything in the section below can be replaced by information obtained ###
### from your paper doll stats or exported by the ShockAndAwe addon         ###
###############################################################################

race                            orc
mh_speed                        2.7
oh_speed                        2.7
mh_dps                          188.1
oh_dps                          178.9
mh_crit                         32.35
oh_crit                         32.35
mh_hit                          13.63
oh_hit                          13.63
mh_expertise_rating             110
oh_expertise_rating             110
ap                              4433
melee_haste                     14.23
armor_penetration               8.28
str                             149
agi                             899
int                             573
spi                             172
spellpower                      1330
spell_crit                      24.28
spell_hit                       17.04
spell_haste                     10.95
max_mana                        12711
mp5                             0

mh_imbue                        windfury
oh_imbue                        flametongue

mh_enchant                      3789
oh_enchant                      3789

mh_weapon                       fist
oh_weapon                       -

trinket1                        40256
trinket2                        45286

totem                           42607

set_bonus1                      worldbreaker_battlegear_4
set_bonus2                      -
set_bonus3                      -

metagem                         41285

gloves_enchant                  hyperspeed_accelerators
cloak_enchant                   -

glyph_major1                    feral_spirit
glyph_major2                    stormstrike
glyph_major3                    windfury_weapon

glyph_minor1                    -
glyph_minor2                    -
glyph_minor3                    -

ancestral_knowledge             2/5
improved_shields                1/3
mental_dexterity                3/3
shamanistic_focus               1/1
flurry                          5/5
elemental_weapons               3/3
unleashed_rage                  3/3
weapon_mastery                  3/3
dual_wield_specialization       3/3
mental_quickness                3/3
improved_stormstrike            2/2
static_shock                    3/3
maelstrom_weapon                5/5

convection                      0/5
concussion                      5/5
call_of_flame                   3/3
elemental_devastation           3/3
reverberation                   0/5
elemental_focus                 0/1
elemental_fury                  5/5
call_of_thunder                 0/1
unrelenting_storm               0/3
elemental_precision             0/3
lightning_mastery               0/5
elemental_oath                  0/2
lightning_overload              0/5
lava_flows                      0/3
storm_earth_and_fire            0/3
shamanism                       0/5

Two runs gave

EnhSim version 1.8.3.2

EP                        value     DPS       total DPS      difference

baseline                                      7142.06
ap                        1.00      0.65      7272.72        130.66
crit rating               1.85      1.21      7505.43        363.37
hit rating                1.58      1.03      7173.02        30.96
expertise rating          0.84      0.55      7160.04        17.98
haste rating              1.72      1.13      7479.63        337.57
armor penetration rating  1.68      1.10      7470.66        328.60
spellpower                1.02      0.67      7242.32        100.26
mh dps                    5.24      3.43      7167.75        25.69
oh dps                    2.60      1.70      7154.79        12.73
strength                  1.10
agility                   1.73
intelligence*             1.40
spirit                    0.00      0.00      0.00           -7142.06
mana                      0.00      0.00      0.00           -7142.06
mp5                       0.00      0.00      0.00           -7142.06

elapsed simulation time: 55000.00h
elapsed real time: 111.26s
simulation speed: 1779631x

and

EnhSim version 1.8.3.2

EP                        value     DPS       total DPS      difference

baseline                                      7141.85
ap                        1.00      0.65      7271.52        129.68
crit rating               1.87      1.22      7506.39        364.54
hit rating                1.58      1.02      7172.51        30.67
expertise rating          0.96      0.62      7162.25        20.41
haste rating              1.74      1.13      7479.77        337.92
armor penetration rating  1.69      1.10      7470.58        328.73
spellpower                1.06      0.69      7245.13        103.28
mh dps                    5.47      3.55      7168.46        26.61
oh dps                    2.26      1.46      7152.82        10.98
strength                  1.10
agility                   1.74
intelligence*             1.40
spirit                    0.00      0.00      0.00           -7141.85
mana                      0.00      0.00      0.00           -7141.85
mp5                       0.00      0.00      0.00           -7141.85

elapsed simulation time: 55000.00h
elapsed real time: 111.08s
simulation speed: 1782531x

Notice how little variation there is between the results.

Now for 1 gem range values

### Saved by version 1.7.0 of EnhSimGUI

ep_precision                    2
ep_base_stat                    ap
ep_ap                           40
ep_crit_rating                  20
ep_hit_rating                   20
ep_expertise                    4
ep_haste_rating                 20
ep_armor_penetration_rating     20
ep_spellpower                   23
ep_dps                          7.5
ep_mana                         250
ep_spirit                       150
ep_mp5                          20

Results

EnhSim version 1.8.3.2

EP                        value     DPS       total DPS      difference

baseline                                      7141.43
ap                        1.00      0.65      7167.61        26.18
crit rating               1.84      1.20      7165.48        24.05
hit rating                1.66      1.08      7163.12        21.70
expertise rating          0.93      0.61      7161.46        20.03
haste rating              1.83      1.20      7165.41        23.99
armor penetration rating  1.53      1.00      7161.43        20.01
spellpower                1.11      0.72      7158.07        16.65
mh dps                    5.54      3.62      7168.61        27.18
oh dps                    2.63      1.72      7154.33        12.90
strength                  1.10
agility                   1.74
intelligence*             1.39
spirit                    0.00      0.00      0.00           -7141.43
mana                      0.00      0.00      0.00           -7141.43
mp5                       0.00      0.00      0.00           -7141.43

elapsed simulation time: 55000.00h
elapsed real time: 110.83s
simulation speed: 1786503x

and

EnhSim version 1.8.3.2

EP                        value     DPS       total DPS      difference

baseline                                      7141.70
ap                        1.00      0.64      7167.34        25.64
crit rating               1.68      1.07      7163.20        21.50
hit rating                1.63      1.05      7162.63        20.93
expertise rating          0.91      0.58      7160.82        19.12
haste rating              1.84      1.18      7165.33        23.62
armor penetration rating  1.63      1.05      7162.65        20.95
spellpower                1.13      0.72      7158.37        16.66
mh dps                    5.35      3.43      7167.44        25.74
oh dps                    2.64      1.69      7154.40        12.69
strength                  1.10
agility                   1.69
intelligence*             1.37
spirit                    0.00      0.00      0.00           -7141.70
mana                      0.00      0.00      0.00           -7141.70
mp5                       0.00      0.00      0.00           -7141.70


elapsed simulation time: 55000.00h
elapsed real time: 110.68s
simulation speed: 1788892x

Significantly more variation (less precision) in the results although these results are more accurate as they represent changes in stat values that people will be experiencing. That's all I was trying to say in the initial post and while I did mix up the terms (I edited that post to fix it) the concept is still sound and still should be something for people to keep in mind when setting their EP values.

Peterle · 08/24/09, 5:21 AM

I think there is a small issue with the simulator and weapon speed. If you are using two weapons with the same attack speed the sim result shows a higher uptime for flurry.
This was mentioned on page 43/44 but it seems that it was never fixed:

Originally Posted by Tramana

It's simple enough to see if you're getting in phase weapons in a wws parse or combatlog for a fight like patchwerk

Or you can test on a target dummy. Get into range of the target dummy and start with a SS. For me this is what I got when I tried:

1/1 14:09:23.526  SPELL_CAST_SUCCESS,"Expert's Training Dummy",0x10a28,17364,"Stormstrike",0x9
1/1 14:09:23.535  SWING_DAMAGE,"Expert's Training Dummy",0x10a28,1711,1710,1,0,0,0,1,nil,nil
1/1 14:09:23.570  SPELL_DAMAGE,"Stormstrike",0x1,1851,1850,1,0,0,0,1,nil,nil
1/1 14:09:23.570  SPELL_DAMAGE,"Stormstrike",0x1,990,989,1,0,0,0,1,nil,nil
1/1 14:09:24.794  SWING_DAMAGE,"Expert's Training Dummy",0x10a28,1053,1052,1,0,0,0,1,nil,nil
1/1 14:09:25.446  SWING_DAMAGE,"Expert's Training Dummy",0x10a28,1038,1037,1,0,0,0,nil,nil,nil
1/1 14:09:26.653  SWING_DAMAGE,"Expert's Training Dummy",0x10a28,1036,1035,1,0,0,0,1,nil,nil

So leading with stormstrike does not automatically put your weapons in phase.

I did some similar tests and i never get my weapons in phase.

3.0.3 patch notes - shaman

Flurry: Now grants the proper number of charges when it triggers.

It seems they fixed it by preventing two white hits at the same time.

Malan · 08/24/09, 10:21 AM

Originally Posted by Rouncer

You are still missing my point. It's a matter of degrees. You can't be perfectly accurate and perfectly precise, you can only ever have a compromise between the two stats.

Seriously, I have no idea where you are getting this from. That is not true at all. Accuracy and Precision are 2 very different things - they are not attached on some sort of sliding spectrum where the more you have of one the less you have of the other. You can have an instrument be very accurate and very precise at the same time. This is not at all like the Heisenberg principle, you need to banish that from your mind.

[e] Think of this as though you were firing a rifle at a gun range. If your shots are scattered all over the target, then you are neither accurate nor precise. If you can get them all dead center of the target then you have high accuracy and high precision. If they're all clustered to one side of the target then you have low accuracy but high precision. Or you could have the shots relatively near the center of the target (accurate) but not in a tight cluster (low precision).

Levva · 08/25/09, 10:20 AM

Ok guys I'm off on holiday now, as I was bored before I left I've done some work on ShockAndAwe and released a new version you can see the details of the changes at ShockAndAwe (formerly DisqoDice)

Rouncer has been added as a co-ordinator of the EnhSim project so that he can add additional developers as needed. eg: if someone comes forward to work on the GUI part. Someone did say they wanted to do that but they haven't posted on this thread if I recall correctly. If you still want to participate and help update the GUI check with Sylvand and Rouncer please as they can add you to the project.

I'll see how I feel on my return if I want to continue playing game, if I don't then all the best to you all. Otherwise I'll be back in 3 weeks. The feedback from Blizzcon with all the dumming down of the stats makes me think that a big chunk of theorycrafting is going to disappear and therefore why bother continuing to play when thats a huge part of what makes the game fun for me. However I appreciate it will be at least 8 months to a year before Cataclysm hits the shops, so I might just play on once back from holiday. Assuming of course I can find a suitable guild on an EU realm.

Originally Posted by Malan

Think of this as though you were firing a rifle at a gun range. If your shots are scattered all over the target, then you are neither accurate nor precise. If you can get them all dead center of the target then you have high accuracy and high precision. If they're all clustered to one side of the target then you have low accuracy but high precision. Or you could have the shots relatively near the center of the target (accurate) but not in a tight cluster (low precision).

If the shots are all clustered to one side is this not high consistency rather than high precision? However that said its a decent analogy.

Accurate - free from error
Precise - exactly measured

In sim terms - the degree of precision is how wide a range of results you get - the degree of accuracy is how close the correct answer you are (in our case the "correct" answer is the results seen in game).

Alandovos · 08/25/09, 1:16 PM

I'm still working on the GUI. Guess my last post was in the [Enhancement] 3.2 Changes thread instead of this one when someone else brought up changes they'd like to see.

Issues on my house have prevented me from moving as fast as I'd like but I'd like to target this weekend for a first pass. Short version is that writing things out is done and just need to work on reading in files and copying from the clipboard.

Rouncer · 08/25/09, 1:28 PM

Originally Posted by Levva

The feedback from Blizzcon with all the dumming down of the stats makes me think that a big chunk of theorycrafting is going to disappear and therefore why bother continuing to play when thats a huge part of what makes the game fun for me. However I appreciate it will be at least 8 months to a year before Cataclysm hits the shops, so I might just play on once back from holiday. Assuming of course I can find a suitable guild on an EU realm.

In sim terms - the degree of precision is how wide a range of results you get - the degree of accuracy is how close the correct answer you are (in our case the "correct" answer is the results seen in game).

They may be trying to simplify things but it was clear from their comments that they understand that the game has a very active TC community and they don't plan on forsaking us. Simple to learn but with great depth is a paraphrase from one of their comments. I think a lot of the upcoming changes comes down to them having to release the actual equation for Armor Penetration, due to it's complexity, and they really didn't like that. The other thing is they aren't thrilled with the damage/health ratio and they prefer to bring all the other classes up to the level of plate instead of bringing plate down to everyone else. Another option would have been to change plate to 5 stats (by adding AP to it) and then devalue stamina further (like the change made in TBC) but that would merely inflate the disparity between tank healthpools and everyone else even further. Which causes issues since then healers have to be able to deal with those huge healthpools on raids making them overpowered in a PvP situation where the incoming damage can't be anywhere near as profound.

Basically the more I think about it the happier I am with the concept of the itemization changes, although it remains to see how exactly things will work out. Besides that Mastery stat is going to need some serious simming to determine how valuable it will actually be compared to something like the revised Agility.

As for the who accuracy/precision thing, that's precisely the point I was trying to make (see what I did there). Setting the EP range very large will give you a small range of answers but how applicable those answers are to the real conditions in the game is disputable. Setting the EP range very small (say 1 gem value) will give you results that are very applicable to in game conditions but the range of those results may be unacceptable large. Increasing the sim time helps stabilize things but there still has to be some understanding of the above involved when choosing what values to utilize.

Gbits · 08/25/09, 2:46 PM

Personally, I think it's going to be a large improvement. We've long complained that shamans are over-itemized (more useful stats than virtually any other class), and this move clearly corrects that. They additionally said that we'd get a mechanic like retadins to convert spellpower (represented in this scenario by intellect) to AP, so that we don't have to itemize for that specifically any more, and that they'd address the resulting mana issues "somehow."

There will still be a wealth of TC to be done between Mastery stats, relative bonuses between different stats (since all will now be affected by buffs, not just some), the increased procs from items/talent-based abilities they promised to replace the lost stats and "make X spell more powerful" talents that currently exist and, possibly, some of the Path of the Titans character advancement "glyphs." It could be a giant mess, but I really don't expect gear to become something like Thrall's Headpiece of the Whale, or for us suddenly to no longer need to sim.

Yo! · 08/25/09, 3:41 PM

Reducing number of stats was expected, some of them are simply combinations of other stats and cheating Item level budget as such. I do not like current situation when every gearing step has to be verified by external programs that produce results that cannot be verified in game. Theorycrafting will remain strong, reforging alone will be huge theorycrafting challenge.

Rouncer · 08/25/09, 3:58 PM

Originally Posted by Yo!

Theorycrafting will remain strong, reforging alone will be huge theorycrafting challenge.

I did like the statement by GC the other day on that point.

Imagine reforging could work like enchanting, where there are specific recipes that everyone knows. Example: "Converts Spirit into 50% equivalent hit rating on gloves."

I'm not saying it would work like this, but something along those lines would be pretty comparable to existing features.

At least that would simplify the process of working out how best to use the ability.

wolfman1265 · 08/25/09, 4:11 PM

I am very new to enhsim. I used ensidia's guide to using it.. Anyways my ep values

Ap 1
crit 1.67
hit 1.67 (ensidia had me lower my hit rating no weapons to show what hit would give if i lost hit on an item)
exp 2.78 ( same as above, i am at cap)

now, haste was 3.17

Now i know that haste is sometimes the best to gem.. but 3.17? seems really high.. Is this normal?

and by the way, i used rawr to copy my character to clipboard

Saabu · 08/25/09, 4:12 PM

I'm using enhsim ver 1.8.3.2 and can't find the the new T9 set bonus option. Is there a newer version that I'm missing or has this not yet been added?

Morthis · 08/25/09, 6:58 PM

It's listed in the config file, the last line for set bonuses.

"t9_battlegear_2 | t9_battlegear_4 | t9_regalia_2 | t9_regalia_4"

Battlegear is the enhance set, Regalia is the elemental set.

Saabu · 08/25/09, 7:25 PM

Just to confirm.

Inside the 'procs and stuff' tab, in the drop down list for set bonus, the T9 set does not show up. Instead I type it in manually?

It does not show up for me in the drop down menu for some reason.