Vuldunobetra

From the TTT:
The Healing Equivalency Points (HEP) assigns weights, or scores, to each stat point. These HEP values can then be used in your own spreadsheet or by programs such as LootRank and Thottbot to score items. To display these values in-game, try a mod such as Pawn or Enhancer.


As a starting point, I propose for T7 (Naxx 10 & 25):
10 - MP5
7 - Intellect
5 - Spellpower
3 - Spell Haste
3 - Spell Crit
1 - Stamina

The goal of HEP is to provide an additional metric to compare gear. It is not intended to be the sole determinate in choosing your gear. It is not intended to replace common sense. You may want to choose gear with lower HEP scores because it provides the stats you need.

----
Added 1/12/2008:
Based on further comments in this thread, HEP theory is very complicated. There is no single set of numbers that will optimize everyone's gear. For example, once you have enough mana to complete any fight, additional MP5 is worth zero to you. A static list of numbers will never work for all cases. For that, you'll have to model fights with your own gear and numbers, either in spreadsheets or RAWR (if they get a working shaman model). Consider the numbers above just as something to point you in the general direction you need to go.

Personally, I am done with HEP theory. If anyone else wants to take over, or develop new HEP models, good luck to you.

 

Malan

Those numbers would be a lot more meaningful if your normalized them.

Shitting up every single thread on EJ since '06

 

Brulan

Do you mind explaining how you came up with these numbers?

Did you do some math behind it or did you just say "oh that sounds about right." ? I'm more interested in how and the steps up to coming up with those numbers.

 

Kaytikat

Like you I've been thinking about how to rate resto gear and produce a single HEP scale. The problem I've having is that l don't seem to be able to narrow it down to a single scale.

In TBC it was quite clear: haste and +healing could be combined with downranking to produce an mp5 equivalence rating, and everything could be placed on the same scale and weighted accordingly.

In Wrath we essentially have two scales: throughput (haste, spellpower, crit) and longevity (crit [for an IWS build], mp5 and int); additional spellpower has no intrinsic mp5 equivalence other than the esoteric "you might have to cast less heals for the same amount of healing" which is fine except in the real world we need to top people up and all that actually happens is overheal increases and number of casts stays the same.

While it's possible to produce HEP scales for each one (and maybe that's the way to proceed), I can't quite make the jump to say that X points of throughput are equivalent to Y points of longevity.

I'd love to know how you managed it.

 

Jakuniku

From the resto TTT comments, this was the reasoning Vuldunobetra stated:

"Currently I am using these very crude values when looking at gear upgrades, for getting ready for Naxx. Nothing scientific, just by intuition."

I don't know if it's going to get to the point where shaman are going to be carrying around multiple sets of healing gear, but it definitely seems like CH bots and LHW/HW bots have pretty different gearing priorities. Both roles want to stack int for Mana Tide/Replenishment. After that it diverges; the more you cast chain heal, the less important crit is and the more important mp/5 is going to be.

 

sovelis41

This has been my thought over the last few days and from my experiences raiding. Moreso than TBC, now that mana is somewhat more of a commodity, we have to choose between these two extremes more often than before. I'm grabbing both haste-focused and crit-focused healing gear (seems its one or the other on T7).

[Retcher's Shoulderpads]
[Heroes' Earthshatter Spaulders]

My initial thought is to gear for one (longevity) and gem for the other (throughput), since right now I'm able to make it through the 10 man encounters with my current gear. What I've decided to do for now is go for longevity off the bat until mana stops becoming a major factor since I'm more of a chain heal/HW user and not a LHW spammer. I'll always keep both sets of gear on me though because it really depends on who your healing partners are at the end of the day.

You pay for the whole chair, but you only need the edge.

 

zh4990

This post stems from a discussionette in TTT Resto Shaman thread. Because posting rules dictated that discussions should be had here, the post was reformed so as not to incur administrative wrath.

The values posted were a result of intuition, and this discussion is designed to get some hard math behind them.

The following is a link from the now locked discussion about WotLK talents for resto shamans.

Restoration WotLK Talents and Discussion

Further, the below quotes are useful statements that I have used to support my own claims about shaman stat weights

Based on the information above, I believe that shamans could stand to devalue MP5 from its TBC values while increasing the importance of Int and Crit. Because glyphed LHW + ES appears viable when combined with WS, a heightened crit rating would allow a shaman to selectively utilize his WS orbs during a time of "mana drought".

If we were to assign "points" to stats on gear, as we do with addons such as Pawn, my stat weights would be as follows, based on the above, assuming a shaman who has replenishment and MT available. Bigger numbers are better.

10 - MP5
6 - Intellect
6 - Spellpower
4 - Spell Haste
3 - Spell Crit
1 - Stamina

Because of the fact that the shaman has no realistic "push button" mana-regen spell, and MT is usable once a fight on average, I feel that MP5 will remain our dominant stat, followed by Int to take advantage of replenishment. Because Int affects Crit, I have kept Crit "low" on the weightings, due to diminishing returns (remember, resto shamans get a nearly automatic +10% to their Crit from talents). Due to a dearth of instant-cast healing spells, haste is still important, though due to the haste changes, it could be debated just how viably useful it is, certainly when considering gear for Naxx.

 

Vuldunobetra

I somewhat based my numbers from the old HEP values for T5. I made a few changes due to the changes introduced in 3.0.2, but many of these are just estimates.

IIRC, these were the numbers from the previous TTT:
Mid-Level Shaman (Tier 5)
Stam = 0.30
Int = 0.68
Healing = 1.0
Crit = 0.45
Mp5 = 3.75
Haste = 0.68
Armor = 0.01
T4 had no Haste and T6 highly valued haste. I'm thinking the T5 numbers will be a good starting point for Naxx. If I scale those numbers to my numbers, I get:
----------------
T5:T7
Stam 1 : 1
Int 2.3 : 7
Healing 3.3 : 5
Crit 1.5 : 3
Mp5 12.5 : 10
Haste 2.3 : 3
----------------

Because of the healing values changing, the healing number needed to go up. Is 1.88 the adjustment factor? If so, that makes it 6.2 instead of the 5 I have, Crit is much more useful for us now, so I doubled the value. MP5 and Haste are close to the old values.

For INT, I used:
----------------
10 Intellect = 6 mp5 if you have a 5-minute fight with Mana Tide and 100% uptime from Replenishment.

Int is 0.6mp5
Int is 0.33crit rating.
Int is 0.18spell power.

CREDIT: Pitbuller
----------------
0.6 * 10 + 0.33 * 3 + 0.18 * 5 = 7.89, which I rounded down to 7

I look forward to input from everyone.

 

zh4990

You have an excellent point, though it is dependent upon whether or not HW and LHW are viable in a raid setting. I suppose the question comes down to if we are going to see "sub-specs" within the resto tree, some shamans attempting to be a strange merger between a paladin and discipline priest, and others sticking to the standard CH spam that we have seen so prominently. Do different tiers of gear favor one "sub-spec" over another? If there are indications that they do, is it therefore necessary to create two separate sets of item weights depending on the flavor of shaman?

In the event that there ARE viable sub-specs, are they viable to the extent that there could conceivably be raids with all-shaman heals?

 

Vuldunobetra

That's always going to be an issue.
Before anyone starts jumping to the wrong conclusions, any HEP is just an estimate at the value of a piece of gear. The player still needs to balance their own stats based on many other things (their healing assignment, length of fight, amount of burst damage, etc).

The old TTT numbers for T4, T5 and T6 were balanced around the fights at that level (more regen at T4, more haste at T6). I hope the T7 numbers can be balanced around a typical five minute Naxx fight. We always have the option to change our Flask and Food buff to move our stats around for the atypical fights.

And as someone else noted, I'm just trying to get the ball rolling here. I welcome all improvements.

Edited to add emphasis for the posters below that missed it. HEP was used in the previous TTT and no one cried about it there.

 

Nite_Moogle

I think it's a pretty gross oversimplification to typecast a single set of resto HEP. The stats you desire are going to change pretty drastically based on your role in the raid: haste and spellpower are better if you are on chain heal throughput for trash or area damage, but trying to keep the tank up on something like the new patchwerk requires a heavier emphasis on regeneration, especially if you can't make use of the LHW glyph. In order to maintain good performance you're going to have to gear swap as the fights dictate it, and I don't think presenting a blanket set of HEP is a good way to educate people as to how to gear.

 

Sunchips

What moogle said. Healing is not the same as dpsing. You can't just put a blanket value on gear that will give you an increase in X amount of dps. Your HPS will vary based on role and spells cast and as such, the gear you will want will change.

 

Nite_Moogle

Prior to 3.0 speccing resto meant chain heal spamming and downranking when not using chain heal to offset the mana inefficiency of higher ranks. That option is gone. There are now very meaningful choices to be made in your gear selection that will greatly impact your performance as a healer, and the abstraction that was appropriate before is no longer appropriate. Times change; HEP is no longer a silver bullet for determining gear quality, and what is good for one player will be terrible for another purely based on their raid composition (i.e. is there a CoH priest). If you are dead set on using HEP, you need to provide a HEP metric for CH healing a a HEP metric for non-CH healing for every single item or it's going to be such a generalized rating that it is completely meaningless.

 

Vuldunobetra

Then help out. What changes need to be made for non-CH healing?

 

Grays

Hey all--I posted something about my woogs script a long while ago and it got mostly flamed down (primarily because I was kind of a jackass at the time). However, I updated it for WotLK and have been using it for my own gear reference. It's mostly my private sheet, but it does nothing arbitrary--everything's normalized. (It could be a little buggy too, but seems intact, and I guessed at the level 80 mechanics.) This was all automatically generated using live Wowhead data, except the sources, which I've been scribbling in myself.

The only reason I mention it at all is because what I rate is exactly that--throughput, regen, and health gain.

If you really find it useful I'll run a clean copy and upload it without my notes. If you have questions about the formulas I'll post them. (Don't bother deciphering the references, those are auto-generated with my Ruby script.) Take it with a grain of salt, it's my own tool and not meant for publication.

http://www.nexusarcanus.net/wow/woog...t_11_12_08.ods

 

Grays

Here's the formulas I'm currently using--again, let me strongly emphasize that I sort of guessed at the constants just to get a functional sheet to use as a rough reference until the theorycraft engine kicks in. Since I'm already facing upgrade decisions (and a lot of people are too, I'm guessing), I thought this might help.

These are in Ruby embedded formula format, but it's pretty easy to figure out how it works. The stat_with_gems function just adds in the value of the gems from the control sheet based on the sockets of the item.

$formulas = {
:calc_rank => "=#{cross_ref(:calc_10mm)}*mp5_c/(12*fight_length)+#{cross_ref(:calc_power)}+#{cross_ref(:calc_health)}*st_c/10",
:calc_power => "=#{cross_ref(:calc_spell_power)}*he_c*1.1+#{cross_ref(:calc_haste)}*ha_c+#{cross_ref (:calc_crit)}*cr_c",
:calc_10mm => "=(1+(0.02*ak_points))*#{stat_with_gems(:intellect)}*15*(1+(0.24*num_tides)+fight_len gth*.15*pct_rep)+#{stat_with_gems(:mana_regen)}*12*fight_length",
:calc_haste => "=#{stat_with_gems(:spell_haste_rating)}",
:calc_crit => "=#{stat_with_gems(:crit_rating)}+(1+(0.02*ak_points))*#{stat_with_gems(:intellect)}* 45.91/80",
:calc_health => "=#{stat_with_gems(:stamina)}*10",
:calc_spell_power => "=(1+(0.02*ak_points))*#{stat_with_gems(:intellect)}*0.3+#{stat_with_gems(:spell_powe r)}"
}

 

Riotpirate

I have personally been watching the forums on information like the above quote.


Because I've been asking myself "Is stacking int really the thing I should do?".

Looking at the information, It would make sense to. BUT sometimes numbers just don't justify how effectively stuff works.

So what I am trying to get at is, are there any shamans who used to stack for mp5 and SP, and went for straight INT, and if so, how effective is the change? How is the mana regen as well as how much HPS? How did stacking int effect it all?

 

zh4990

I think we should be careful how much we allow MT to factor into our general values for Int. While, yes, we can use it in a pinch, it is just that. A pinch. I feel that we should concentrate more on the Int -> MP5 values that are derived from Replenishment, as we can more easily consider that to have 100% uptime.

 

Pitbuller

3 - Spell Haste


Chain heal cost 0.19 * 0.95 * 4396 -> 793.5mana or -1587mp5

One haste rating increase mana burn rate when chain spamming by -0.484mp5.

Spell haste healing output value should be then X - 4.84 = 3
X = 7.84hep
This is same as 1.56spell power.

But one haste rating give only 0.7 of spell power output with 1500spell power.
So haste goes down to -1.33HEP. But we all know that haste have some positive value.

There is two thing that can be wrong. Mp5 is overvalued or haste is overvalued.

Slow, slower, shaman weapon.

 

Shinwei

I was really hoping that for the WoTLK expansion we would move away from using these boards as a discussion about HEP and "optimizing" a healer's gear. I felt that throughout the Burning Crusade, that's all that was ever discussed here and actual healing strategy discussion had been almost entirely squelched out.

Now that we have a lot more talents to play with - Tidal Waves, Riptide, etc. I feel that we are now open to many different healing styles and strategies to discuss. I sincerely hope we take advantage.

Admittedly, during the first half of the Burning Crusade I was pretty obsessive over HEP and optimizing my gear. As I raided more and gained more experience, I realized that gear selection barely made any difference in my performance. As long as I wasn't choosing to wear items that were obviously not meant for my role, it really didn't matter what I wore. Healing isn't DPS. We are not meant to be maximizing HPS, HPM, or any such magical number.

All that matters when healing is asking yourself the following three questions:

1. Did I heal the guy in time?
2. If so, did I heal for enough to let him survive the next hit?
3. Did I have enough mana to last the fight?

If the answer to any of those questions ever comes up "no", then provided you aren't wearing rogue gear or all greens or something, the problem can be fixed by adjusting your spell selection and healing strategy. Very rarely, if ever will looking at an HEP table and putting it into lootrank solve one of those issues. There is no way that switching from [Retcher's Shoulderpads] to [Heroes' Earthshatter Spaulders] or vice-versa will all of a sudden change the answer(s) to any of those questions.

Note that I'm not saying you shouldn't keep two or more sets of gear (haste, Mp5, etc..). I've kept multiple sets of healing gear myself throughout all of my Burning Crusade raiding - it's a very good practice and I would recommend that everyone do it. However, the point I am trying to make is you should not need HEP values to help you decide on how to set up your gear sets. In most tiers of dungeons there are two, maybe three pieces of gear per slot designed for a Resto Shaman to wear (a few more if you look at leather+cloth items). Use your brain. Put the one with haste on it in your haste set and put the one with lots of MP5 in your MP5 set. If two items seem very similar, who cares? Pick one and spend the amount of time you saved thinking about how you can improve your spell selection and reaction time.

 

Grays

Shinwei--That is all true.

However, we all just hit 80, and now have a huge selection of blues and new epics to choose from, and we need to figure out what's an upgrade to our T6 and what isn't. :P

At least, that's the priority for me.

 

Riotpirate

[*]Did I heal the guy in time?
[Retcher's Shoulderpads] and other various changes within your gear for more haste, if mana and healing is effecient enough for the fight.

the haste would be a good way to make sure you can heal quicker and get those bigger heals quicker than a 2.4

before a tank dies. There has already been situations at 80 that I run into tanks who either just aren't at 540 def, or they think that warriors resil completely makes up for it.

Which means healers need to be able to heal through back to back 7k hits. That's just one instance in which switching gear kind of made a big difference.


Anyways, aside from that really anyone try out the difference between mp5 and int?

As I am not a dps class I shouldn't be optimized I guess, But I kind of like to make my character the best I can make it so that I can preform much better. And really. Raids. One healer could always make or break a boss kill.

Anyone test out MP5 to INT difference in naxx?

 

Vuldunobetra

Great. Start a new thread about healing strategies. I'm waiting to see how shamans can do as MT healers. There are a lot of pluses and minuses, wonder how it will balance out.

 

TheSilverHand

edit: oops I lied

(ignore please)

 

bewmheels

I'll only comment on 10 man healing after clearing all the 10 man content this week. This is purely anecdotal. I did use recount to track what spells i used and their % healing.

I cast chain heal 75% of the time and only threw in TW LHW & HW when tanks required an extra healer or there wasnt time to wait for a 2.2sec chain heal. In 10 mans INT is a greater stat than everything else. My longevity has increased by increasing my mana pool than increasing my mp5. I've gone from 17k mana to 20k and about 200mp5 - 300mp5 since i first set foot in naxx. I increased my mp5 after i increased my INT and the difference was no where near as significant as it was wen my mana pool was increased. I still have 2 piece t6 bonus in the form of belt/bracers/boots. I found tank healing to be very difficult without using healer rotations to give me time to regen. Even then it was better on my mana to use chain heals and only switch to LHW/HW when you require a big fast heal.

From this i believe that int, crit, sp are our greatest stats for 10 mans. Personally i'd still go for more regen over anything else. Will have some more information by the end of this week as we finally have enough to hit up Naxx25. I hope the difference isnt large enough for me to have to have 2 sets of gear.

On a seperate note. Single target healing even with 2k healing power i found that i wasnt effectively able to keep the tank up without spamming. This led to running oom quite quickly, a lot quicker than purely raid healing. 2 piece t7 may make it a little easier but i'm yet to see any evidence as to whether it increases the mana given on each consumption of a water shield orb. I have 20.78 crit unbuffed and all the crit talents so i'd like to hear from someone with even higher crit to see if things get easier.