Riotpirate

Thank you sir, this is the answer I was looking for.

I'm looking forward to seeing results in the 25 man to see about the possibility of needing 2 sets.

 

Mem

I agree on the sentiment that at least two sets of gear are needed now. Chainheal still works great with haste (that is if your druids and priests don't let it land in pure overheal which happens quite a lot nowadays). Since chainheal almost naturally produces about 30-40 % overheal unless shit is really hitting the fan pushing up crit won't help its efficiency all that much. This is even more true when considering where we are proccing our ac buff (mostly people who shouldn't have aggro anyway) and that chainheal doesn't benefit from IWS.

On the other hand IWS, Ancestral Healing and the spikes tanks eat right now make crit a nice stat for mt healing, a role we are more often called to fullfill nowadays due to the presence of strong instant aoe heals (and for fights like patchwerk tankhealing is requiered from every healer). Sitting at already 25 % spellcrit unbuffed and using the much underestimated Lesser Healing Wave Glyph you might not post the numbers of a disc priest or a paladin but you can contribute a great deal. This is even more true when doing normal mode raids where you might be one of two healers most of the time. Furthermore: if you are sitting at a very high crit level you will never truely run oom if a replenishment is present because of the speed you will consume your watershield bubbles.

I also feel that once we are fully geared in T7 and equivalent gear the mana problems you will feel during the first 2 IDs will diminish a great deal due to the larger manapools and the MP5 on the new gear.

 

fauxpas

I guess there was hardly any talk on healing strategies in BC because .. well .. you didn't really need one. "Cast Chain Heal on whoever has the fewest HP and move out of anything that does damage" summed it up for the most part :P

I absolutely loved the LHW Glyph on Patchwerk 25man yesterday. 7.5k Crits are quite nice indeed
But then again, we didn't manage to kill him .. we only had 6 healers though and decided to do other wings instead.
Paladins on Patchwerk are off the charts though - at least ours was. About 4.4k HPS if i remember correctly (and once he was oom the tank died :P), absolutely crushing everyone else by quite a margin. I managed to be second though.

I haven't decided yet whether i like wotlk healing or not. It's a lot more versatile but also frustrating at times. Riptide - Chain Heal is clumsy and rarely works the way you'd like to. Healing Wave eats mana like nothing else. Chain Heal is .. well, Chain Heal with a fourth target. LHW only truly shines with glyph and earth shield and thus is not really flexible. I like Riptide as a spell quite a lot, but the mana cost seems to be quite high especially because it's so attractive to cast (being instant and all) all the time.

But .. well .. we'll see. (oh, and screw blizzard for malygos, the vortex is just stupid )


edit: Oh, hi Memnonia.. Console here

 

Mem

Hi Console

Resto undoubtetly has some issues (for example that sporting more crits for more throughput requieres you to use more GCDs for regeneration, no additional support for the chainheal beyond the new glyph and talents that existed before 3.0, very weak AA as well as a no longer usefull Healing Way) but some tricks you can pull off are pretty decent. Like using a Riptide to procc Tidalwaves for quicker heals (Malygos Vortex or for using a Riptide - Healing Wave - Healing Wave combo if your tank drops despite spamming LHW on him). I really like the feeling in heroics where the resto shaman is performing probably better than any other healer. But in raids it feels a little bit underpowered.

What I like is really the idea that chainhealing is not the tool to use everytime (and this is probably one of the arguments why we don't see any chainheal changes). In our last Naxx25 clear my chainheal ammounted to about 65 % of my healing done, which is probably too much and should be reduced to about 50 %. Chainheal is still our bread and butter skill but LWH is becoming our second pillar in terms of healing, supported by proccs, totems and riptide which is a kind of small emergency button for me (spamming it is, as Console said, prohibitively expensive).

 

Kaytikat

Going back to on-topic to HEP (sorry!) I've spent some work doing the maths for a CH spamming spec.

Assumptions: 1800 spellpower, 25% crit (including talents), CH glyph installed, 40% overheal, spamming CH, 0 haste.

For throughput:
1 crit rating = 63.5 extra healing per 5 minutes
1 spellpower = 264 healing per 5mins
1 haste rating = 196 healing per 5mins
1 intellect = 68.5 healing per 5mins

Comparing them to spellpower and normalising results in a throughput HEP of:

Spellpower: 4.29
Haste: 3.19
Int: 1.5
Crit: 1.03

For longevity:
1 mp5 = 1mp5
1 intellect = 0.66mp5 (assuming 100% replenishment uptime)
1 crit rating = 0.16mp5 (Imp WS spamming LHW so we are overvaluing it here)

Again, we normalise and compare to mp5:

mp5: 5.69
Intellect: 3.42
Crit rating: 0.89

Combined Rating
Now the trick. Assuming balanced gear requirements it should be possible to simply combine the normalised ratings together, leading to the final HEP of:

mp5: 5.69
Intellect: 4.91
Spellpower: 4.29
Haste: 3.19
Crit: 1.92

Which gives this gear list: Loot Rank for WOLTK

Interestingly, this is very close to the way I was selecting gear intuitively anyway, with a lot of my items being best in slot or almost best in slot pre-naxx. We did a 2 healer clearance of all 4 wings of Naxx10 yesterday and my gear stood up to the test perfectly. Only on Patchwerk was I close to hard OOM and praying for the tank to dodge more in the last 5%.

 

Pitbuller

Kaytikat: Haste need own negative value for longevity. When chain casting chain heal it's about -0.6mp5 or -3.414 if normalized. This drop haste down to -0.224.

Slow, slower, shaman weapon.

 

Vuldunobetra

Using Kaytikat's numbers, here are how the gem prefixes play out:

For the red/yellow sockets, these are very close in value:
Orange: Luminous +Int/SP
Yellow: Brilliant +Int

For the blue sockets, if you want to keep the socket bonus:
Green: Dazzling +Int/mp5
Purple: Glowing +SP/Stam

 

Grummy

Nice work on the HEP, Kaytikat. Interesting approach.

Off topic question, were you using CH on that fight? I had to spam HW the whole time. It got pretty intense. I had a squishy paly tank though.

What I didn't like about the fight, and what concerns me about shaman tank healing in general, is I VERY rarely had the opportunity to waste a GCD on ES, WS, or RT. Taking the time to use these abilities put the tank, and raid, in dire straights. Therefore, I wasn't able to take advantage of the increased healing speed from a tidal waves proc on riptide, I wasn't able to benefit fully from my 25% crit (in actually, it may have hurt since I didn't have WS up for parts of the fight), and I wasn't able to reap the rewards of the LHW glyph since I didn't have ES up on the tank all fight.

It is possible, and likely, our tanks (and I) were undergeared for the content, but I hope these problems don't persist. For reference I had about 1720 SP, 150 haste, and 322 mp5 unbuffed and no T6 set bonus. Not sure if that is Naxx ready or not.

Edited for more infoz/opinionz.

 

Ammanas

Thats a pretty low haste value, that may have been part of the reason you were GCD starved.

We did 25-man Patchwerk last night and it wasn't too bad for me. I'm at around 2000 SP, 375 haste, 450 casting MP5 fully buffed and I was able to use CH most of the time. We had 6 healers. Our hateful tank is pretty geared though - hes in almost full Naxx10 gear with a couple of crafted/heroic pieces.

Pretty much what I did for most of the 10-man content (we ran 2 healers for almost everything) was use CH and Riptide almost exclusively. I would use TW'd Healing Wave if I ever got behind on the tank and LHW to spot heal the raid during movement or spiky raid damage that CH would be too slow for. I was still running 2pc t6 for the CH reduction for most of this, and I found it to be much more effecient than Healing Wave even with a good amount of crit and full points in Imp WS/Imp Shields.

It seems to me that while Healing Way CAN be incredibly efficient when you crit, its quite possible to go 5-6 in a row without critting which really puts a hurting on your mana. There were very few times when my tank was taking so much damage that I couldn't keep up with Chain Heal + ES + Rip Tide.

I am just now starting to play around with the LHW Glyph more, its pretty ridiculous how hard it can hit. I can crit for 7k on a target with ES and have the water shield orb restore most of the mana cost. Its probably not all that practical the majority of the time but I don't think the extra 5% from the Earthliving glyph is all that great either.

 

Vuldunobetra

Grummy,
Can you post more details about your fight? Was this 10-man? Were you on the MT or OT? How many healers total, and what classes?

My understanding is that the OT takes more damage than the MT. Seems to me that the best role, (with two healers), is for the shaman is to CH the MT, catching the OT with the bounce. This sets up Tidal Waves for 1.7s Healing Waves whenever needed. Even a CH-HW or CH-HW-HW rotation gives similar HPS and HPM as straight HW spam, plus it heals the OT as well. (Note, I haven't seen the fight yet, just theorycrafting it.)

 

bewmheels

Ok completed military and plague wing last night. Its quite clear that 25 mans regen is nowhere near as difficult. Something i was very suprised with was the amount of time i had replenishment up. INT still has a major part to play in 25 mans. Replenishment is not guaranteed but last nite i'd say it had a 75% uptime and i was actively looking for it.

Its quite clear to me that currently our strength is tank/melee healing. This was prevalent vs Instructor where i was healing the understudies only using chain heal and achieving 4k hps while the coh priest on the raid was getting around 4.5k hps.

Come Gothik and you really start to see why we are in a raid. We cant output as much hps but wen you're critting for 9-10k chain heals on a tank and healing melee to full you don't feel anywhere as useless as you do in the lower wings. I will reserve judgement for sapphiron in terms of whether you need to gear differently for 25man over 10man. I still think regen > sp > haste but you may be able to skimp on the INT gemming and switch to sp/haste.

Yes haste helps get those heals out quicker but chain heal seems to be shining when theres large amounts of dmg and i think larger heals are better than faster heals...comparing against the other shaman in the group who had about 50% more haste than i the numbers weren't screaming get more haste. Not to mention being able to spam non stop for an entire fight has its advantages over "reactionary" healing which the priests have covered.

 

Grummy

This was a 10 man. Sadly, we had two resto shaman as our healers. I was on the OT. The hateful strikes do hit harder than the attacks on the MT. We were both spamming HW, but the other healer was fairly worse geared. Should have tried the CH spam on the MT. We got him down, it was just really intense.

Sounds like a lot of people are still using CH has the main heal even with the changes.

 

BlacKcuD

i just finished 10 man content and all of the heroics, too (like the above poster).

i neglected mp5 almost completely while aquiring new gear. i pushed +int, +crit and secondly +power and +haste. i'm specced for max crit 0 17 54 (or something like that). maximum buffs brings me to a 20k mana pool and over 30% crit (including talents)

result: my hps is at a very nice point (not too much, not too less) and my mana regen is more than enough.
problem: if there is no replenishment buff, i'm f*cked and run oom very fast.

 

Riotpirate

So maybe this should still put up a good assumption that maybe, for raids in which you can get the Replenishment buff you could use a more Int, crit, haste based set of gear. So that the regen you would get would be sufficient with bigger heals, while in raids in which we're not fortunate enough to get a Replenishment buff have a more MP5/INT Based set?

Correct my thinking if I am mistaken.

 

Kaytikat

We did Naxx25 last night and the difference between that and Naxx10 is unreal. In 10, with 2 healers, you really have to work and if you're not careful you'll go OOM. At 25 level, with 100% replenishment uptime (ret pally, shadow priest and >5 non-mana users) mana just wasn't an issue.

Both times I was on the hateful strike tank, with enough spare time to earth shield and riptide as often as required to keep most of my healing waves hasted. Of course, it helps in 10 to have a paladin as your second healer due to the insane amount of HPS that Beacon of Light can put out - his beacon healed the hateful strike tank for the same amount as my Healing Wave spam!

Looking at the encounters in Naxx it's clear that the place has a very different philosophy to more modern encounters, with very little of the high, concentrated raid damage that we saw in Sunwell. You'll have to adapt, particularly in 10-man. My healing for the entire night (including trash) was 54% CH, 15% Riptide, 12% HW, 7% LHW, 4% Earthliving, 4% Earth Shield, 2% Ancestral Awakening. Pretty nice compared to a typical Sunwell clear that was often as high as 95% CH, 4% Earth Shield, 1% others.

Incidentally, I was still specced for heroics, with Ancestral Awakening and Glyph of Healing Wave installed (along with Glyph of Chain Heal), and I'm now stuck having to keep AA due to the amount of healing it did on Patchwerk. As long as there is a fight like that that requires us to tank heal, AA will be worth it. I'd have killed for it on Morogrim Tidewalker 18 months ago!


I can see your logic and you're mathematically correct, I just don't accept that it fits the HEP paradigm. Haste has no intrinsic negative mp5 effect so taking it on gear is not a bad thing - abusing it when your gear lacks the regen to keep up is the problem!

If haste was rated as low as you suggest you're actually saying that gear with haste is worse than the same gear with no haste (which is clearly nonsense).

 

Pitbuller

Kaytikat: I only used your values to derive haste value. I posted last page another derived haste value and conclusion was that haste have benefits even if straight derived value look negative. You can't use ordinary Hep value to haste if you are mana starved becouse you can't get any real ouput without using more mana. We just can't forget negative sides and only value positives.

Slow, slower, shaman weapon.

 

Yadee

We did 10 man naxx the other day, as a first run for the guild.

The raid wasnt particulary well set up, we didnt have a single rogue, druid or dk, and lacked a lot of nice buffs like moonkin aura.

The 2 healers, a disc priest and me a resto shaman, had no real problems keeping the raid up. I hadnt had much chances at heroics yet so every single item i wore was BC stuff, while the priest had geared up some (2k spellpower'ish gear level)

On patchwerk i was riptiding both tanks, alternating who i riptided, and had earthshield + LHWing the protadin who was tanking. The priest was healing the prot warr, who was soaking up the hateful strike.
The fight lasted 5.49 and i used 1 mana tide and 1 mana potion, and had about 2k mana when patchwerk died.

My heal distribution for plague, spider and abo wing was 31% CH, 22% heal stream (...), 17% LHW, 9% RT, 8% ES, 5% ELW and 3% AA.

I used 6 mana potions in total in those 3 wings, didnt go OOM on a single boss (though couldnt mindlessly spam either), we had 1 shadow priest as the mana regenner, no surv hunter or frost mage.

Us 2 healers healed for very similar amounts (though if you count my healing stream totem i had considerably more healing done)

Id say patchwerk was the hardest fight, mana pool wise. We wiped the first try because healers ran OOM at the 5% enrage, for the second try the hunter kept up the -hit% sting, which seems to have helped a lot as the fight ended with both of us with mana left.

I am definately leaning towards a crit based build for 10 mans, having ES up on one of the tanks and LHWing for snap heals, + CHing the raid, was a nice combo.

As for relic slot i am going with the -79 mana on CH one, as i hardly ever use HW at all, and dont really feel the lack of HW and healing way to be of any hinderance at all.

I dont see myself using CH on patchwerk, i tried a few casts but the melee dps got hit too and healed, and consequently had a hateful strike incoming, only quick reactions saved them.

 

MatsT

As long as you have 2 tanks alive on patchwerk, the offtank is the only person in the raid who is going to receive hateful strikes. The hp of the melee dps does not affect it, and there is no reason to lower their hp by removing buffs or going in the slime (except for troll berserking)

Looking at the HEP scales, it's pretty clear that any scale where haste gives a negative benefit is wrong. It's pretty clear that there is effectively 2 scales, one for healing throughput and one for mana. Haste affects one scale positively and one scale negatively. The scales need to be balanced compared to each other such that haste gives a nonnegative effect when the scales are combined (could be very small if haste sucks or zero if mana is he only limiting factor). Maybe we could figure something out by looking at how much mp5 1 spellpower gives if healing requirement is unchanged (i.e. how many fewer chain heals do we need to cast if we add 1 spellpower).

EDIT: This obviously assumes that overhealing% does not change when spellpower increases, which is not entirely true. Haste is a way to increase your throughput without increasing your overheal% (perhaps even lowering it).

 

Maxxtor

Edit: I have a concern with these numbers. Mostly with the amount of mp5 per int and the crit rating is off by a small fraction. Unless my calculations are off or I'm looking at it from the wrong angle. Using a base of a 5 minute long fight:

5/5 Ancestral Knowledge - 10 int should equal 165 mana(180 with kings).
Replenishment returns .25% of your maximum mana every second.
Mana Tide Totem returns 24% of your maximum mana(28% with [Glyph of Mana Tide Totem])
5 minute = 300 seconds = 60 ticks of mp5

Replenishment yields 2.0625 mp5:
Normal - .0025 * 16.5 * 5 = 2.0625
Kings - .0025 * 18 * 5 = 2.25

Mana Tide Totem yields 39.6 mana(46.2 mana with glyph) or .66 mp5(.77 mp5 with glyph):
Normal:
.24 * 165 = 39.6
39.6/60 = .66

.28 * 165 = 46.2
46.2/60 = .77

Kings:
.24 * 180 = 45
45/60 = .75

.28 * 180 = 50.4
50.4/60 = .84

So 10 int will either yield 2.7225 mp5 or 2.8325 mp5 with [Glyph of Mana Tide Totem] normally and with kings 3 mp5 or 3.09 mp5 respectively.

Edit: Based on numbers from Pitbuller you need 166.667 int per 1% crit. When you add talents and kings into the mix that number changes to 150 int and 133.33 respectively. You need around 45.905 CR for 1% crit.

Normal
10/150 = .0667
.0667*45.905 = 3.06

Kings - 10/133.33 = .075
.075*45.905 = 3.44

So 10 int will yield you around .0667% crit or .075% crit with kings which is 3.06 CR and 3.44 CR respectively.

Int is 0.3mp5
Int is .344 crit rating.
Int is 0.18spell power.

 

Pitbuller

Crit rating isn't same as crit%. As we leveled to 80: Int -> crit% halved but also crit rating -> crit% halved.

You need 166.6666709 int to get 1% crit. With talents and kings you only need 138.88 int for that.
You need 45.90598679 crit rating to get 1% crit.

1 int = (45.905 / 138.88) = 0.3305 crit rating.
So this is right.

You did get same int -> spell power ration so that is right too.


You did forget that intellect give mana. This mana can be adjusted mp5 value if we know how long fight is. When those numbers was maded 5 minute was good estimate. Intellect give 15*1.2 mana. 18 mana / 60mp5 tick = 0.3.
So numbers was exactly right.

Slow, slower, shaman weapon.

 

Vuldunobetra

If there are fights where you are spam healing HW on the tank, what about Healing Way for an 18% boost? The big problem with Healing Way is building and keeping the stack up. Would it be easy to keep up on the fights where you spam it?

Assuming a 33% crit rate:
---without HW and AA
HW = 6234 (from TTT)
HW crit = 9409
HPS = 2909

---with HW
HW = 6234 * 1.18 = 7402
HW crit = 11,103
HPS = 3454

---with AA
HW = 6234
HW crit = 9409
AA proc = 2823
HPS = 3285

---with HW and AA
HW = 6234 * 1.18 = 7402
HW crit = 11,103
AA proc = 3331
HPS = 3898

The six talent points in AA and HW increase Healing Wave HPS by 34% under ideal conditions.

The HPS can be increased by adding RT/CH to the rotation. The highest HPS rotation should be RT HW HW CH HW HW, but I'm done with math for the day.

 

Maxxtor

Thank you for the numbers for int to crit rating. The numbers for crit is still just slightly off which I fixed in my post which should be .344. The number that was used for Mp5 initially was .6 per int which I was pointing out should be .3 per int which you confirmed.

 

Pitbuller

Int give mana from three different sources. Four if you include inproved water shield procs.

One intellect give:
1. Initial mana pool. +18mana.
2. Replenish. 0.225mp5
3. Mana tide. 4.32mana per use.

In five minute fight those number are:
1. 0.3mp5
2. 0.225mp5
3. 0.072mp5

Those combined give ~0.6mp5.

Slow, slower, shaman weapon.

 

Grandaddy

Disclaimer: I know this is largely anecdotal, but I noticed a lack of much real information on the 25-man raids and thought I'd share what I could given my limited math proficiency.

For the sake of argument in favor of intellect gearing, here's a WWS showing my mana gains across three wings of 25-man Naxx:

Wow Web Stats

I have been gearing with an eye towards maximizing my intellect at the expense of a fair amount of haste (to the point that I think I overdid it!) and am currently running above 1800 +healing with just about 19.7k mana and minimal haste. On most encounters contained in the parse I have only my own Mana Spring, but I have at least one hymn of hope. For the most part I avoided using Runic Mana Pots because they are currently prohibitively expensive, but looking at the mats I imagine that using one on a long fight will become a given soon enough.

In the 25-man clear, I found myself reverting much more to Sunwell-style CH spam. The difference was that I had a lot more tools for the fights like Patchwerk where that wasn't an option. The only fights where mana became a concern were Patchwerk and Kel'thuzad (unfortunately, no parse for Abom wing and KT from last night).

I am currently getting around 49-50 mana per tick from Replenishment, which over the course of a long fight is a nice increase over the 42ish per tick I was getting when I first hit 80. It seems like any fight that I'm having mana problems on is 6 minutes or longer and I can get two Mana Tides.

Hope this is helpful for raw data for smarter people to play with.

 

Maxxtor

Thank you for the clarification. I wasn't sure how the extra .3 mp5 got in there. Makes perfect sense now.