Vuldunobetra

You should compare the glyph to other glyphs, not spells.

Glyph of Healing Wave is somewhat unique as it is the only Glyph that gets it's own line item in the Combat Logs. But we can estimate what the other glyphs did, or would have done.
GoHW did 40.8K
GoLHW did 49.2K minus some unknown overheal and heals on non-ES targets
GoCH would have done 39.2k minus some unknown overheal and missed jumps
GoELW would have done 29.8k minus some unknown amount of overheal
--- Note that this is based on one set of Recount numbers. With a different spell mix, the numbers will be different, obviously.

More important than just the numbers, Healing Wave with Tidal Waves is my go to spell when I need lots of healing. The HPS is incredible. The glyph heals me at the time when I am least likely to have a GCD to heal myself.

As a reminder, I am considering this from a 5-man Heroic viewpoint. I haven't done 25-man raids yet, where I expect a different mix of spells to be used.

 

• Philondra

Barring certain achievements, when it comes to healing heroics reward flexibility and versatility much more than raw numbers, and unlike raids there are multiple correct answers for any given encounter. I personally dismissed HW because I found that in most situations in which the tank is taking that much damage the group (and in particular, myself) didn't need urgent healing. I value Glyph of LHW fairly high for 5-man content, as it allows me to use riptide as an emergency heal rather than having to use it on cooldown in order to keep up Tidal Waves, as LHW is fast baseline and very efficient when use on the tank.

I think it just might be an issue of you and I having different preferred healing styles for content that favors multiple approaches.

 

d3v

I've cleared the whole content in 10-mans now.
My Stats:
Mp5: ~320
+Heal: ~1700
+Crit: ~23%
Haste: ~150

Because I'm mostly only there for grouphealing I'm using LHW and CH. Based on my first experiences in this content:

Mp5: 320 is perfect. In manaintensive fights it fits great with manatide and a pot.
+Heal: Is ok, but I should aim for 2000 I think. But at the end I handle it in the same way like int.
+Crit: It's mana reg and I don't have to heal a second time, when someone takes damage. More = always better.
Haste: Lags and most fights make it useless. But in fights where you can use it, it's realy great. Take it, if you can get it without losing stats. [LHW may go through in Malygos Vortex and Haste increases the chance!]

Int: Well, I don't realy care. I just watch out that most items have int.

Healing is a pretty individual thing, you must look at your raidsetup, tank gear, your own job in the raid, the fights, ect. So you get some epics, begin to raid and test what you must change to hold your raid up.

HEP may become important with the release of the next content, because at the moment it's just like "pick up some lvl 80 items and have fun clearing up the content!". The best way to prepare for the next upcoming content is to get good overall stats, so you won't get in the situation: "Oh damn, I need 1000 Haste but only have 1500 Int, 500 Mp5 and no haste!"

If you have problems with the actual content and your whole raid has lvl 78-80 gear, you should ask the next player you find with malygos 25-man gear if you can join his guild. :x

Greets

 

rieper

Well i've cleared all 25 /10 man , sartharion and now trying to clear Malygos on 10/25 versions.
My gear has improved alot throughout and still have 2 piecies of lvl 70.

I' ve chosen to mix and try a bit along those instances.
First mistake was that i went full haste :S when had no gear yet.
Finally ended up giving prio to Mp5/int in a balanced way.

Now my stats self buffed are:

bonus healing : 2.274
crit : 23.89%
Haste : 369(10.98%)
mp5 : 319/444

Int: 957

I haven't like a haste/mp5 gear/crit , intend to get though all the 3 types , was able to clear all with no problems and mana was more than fine toping most of the times the healing metters, turns to be more painfull when you can't use chain heal , but it's doable if your reflexes are good enough and you use rotations of riptide + LHW/HW.

Now considering gear choices. Defenetly go for MP5 untill you see you have no problems with mana regeneration, than stack haste/Int and it should do the trick. I'm not a great healer but i can manage good healing.
Another thing stated already in this post was that depending on raid set up , how much your guild is geared , wich fight you're facing and wich partners you have alongside , you'll need to adapt your gear and healing style to be able to rule.

2 piecies set gear is a big help for those requiring more mp5.
(Note that i'm not a mats brain , i'm more of a intuition one, and just take some ideas from what i read , but never going deep in mats)

 

◊ quiddity

Hasn't it already been established that with the replenishment buff INT is a much more desirable stat than MP5? By nature of resto shaman gear MP5 is going to be there, but if you have some sort of replenishment buff socket for SP or INT most of the time.

 

bewmheels

1 INT < 1mp5 however, so if ur looking at an item with 5 more INT but 5 less mp5 the one with more mp5 is better. Effectively mp5 is still worth more but because INT is a cheap stat you'll find more of it on gear and gems. I've had 20k mana since i entered naxx10 for the first time and ive increased my mana pool to 23k and my mp5 from 125 - 300 in steps.

First i put more INT then i put more mp5. I didnt notice huge leaps and bounds wen i increased mp5 but i did with INT. While its important to do math and look at numbers i find this to be the most beneficial anecdotal advice i can give to any shaman out there deciding how to gear. Im in the process of increasing my haste now to see how much of an increase it gives my hps. I find the balancing act to be so much more rewarding than getting the best items or the most HEP out there.

 

◊ quiddity

Right, because 10 INT would be approximately 3 MP5. Same reason [Enchant Chest - Greater Mana Restoration] is valued higher than [Enchant Chest - Powerful Stats]. Haste's EP value is going to go up as we get our mana pools and spellpower up to reasonable levels for level 80.

 

hvidgaard

I was under the impression that 1 Int = 0.6 MP5, and if we lower the replenisment uptime to 60% it's still 1 Int = 0.5 MP5.

 

d3v

Int may be the most desireable stat. Let's say you have tons of it. You have the highest HEP-Score all over the world. But at the end you heal worse than another shamy with less hep, because he had haste, more crit or something like that. All I want to say is, that you can't become the "best" healer if you stick to the theory of HEP.

This is why is switched to my shamy. With my warlock it was just like "get this amount of hit, some crit to keep XY buff up and then push spelldmg and haste as much as you can."

 

hvidgaard

As already said many times, Int is the stat of choise if you have mana problems. If not it's a good idea to know how it translates into other stats so you can compare 2 pieces and determin if one is an upgrade over the other.

 

Vuldunobetra

HEP was never intended to be the only way to choose your gear. I never expected people to stack mp3 and zero spellpower (or some other crazy stat imbalance) because "HEP told them to". Since several people have pointed this out, I edited the first post to clearly state the purpose of HEP.

 

Skyhoof

Please critique the information below. I will then revise and incorporate into the wiki. Thanks.

Blizzard did a much better job with itemization in WotLK than they did in BC – where blues quest rewards were often superior to epics from 25-man bosses. Picking gear in WotLK is relatively simple: The harder the boss, the better loot. And you no longer have to wear a bunch of cloth and leather. For the most part, you want mail pieces. This is a welcome change since we can then focus on how to heal, rather than what to wear.

If an item does not have +hit or +spirit, you can use the item level as a rough guide:

226 (KT, Malygos) > 213 (Naxx-25, Sartharion) > 200 (Naxx-10 or 5-man heroic) > 187 (5-man) >174 (quest reward)

You want four pieces of Tier 7 (Valorous). Tier 7 is a 5-piece set but unless you are a fashionista you'll want to wear either a non-set chest or gloves.

If you take [Tunic of the Artifact Guardian]over [Valorous Earthshatter Tunic], and use [Brilliant Autumn's Glow] and [Luminous Monarch Topaz], you get
+6 stam
-3 int
+74 crit
-59 haste
-2 mp5
+29 sp

If you take [Winter Spectacle Gloves]over [Valorous Earthshatter Handguards]
+7 stam
-5 int
-45 crit
+48 haste
+7 mp5
+16 sp

Best in Slot+

• Head: [Valorous Earthshatter Headpiece]
• Neck: [Life-Binder's Locket](Malygos key quest) or [Chains of Adoration](several boss in Naxx-25)
• Shoulders: [Valorous Earthshatter Spaulders](Loatheb-25 or badges)
• Back: [Pennant Cloak](Sartharion-25) or [Cloak of the Dying](Kel'thudzad-10)
• Chest: [Tunic of the Artifact Guardian](Malygos-25) or [Valorous Earthshatter Tunic](Four Horsemen-25) for 4-piece set bonus
• Wrist: [Bindings of the Decrepit](Heigan-25) or [Cuffs of the Shadow Ascendant](Emblem of Valor) Identical
• Hands: [Winter Spectacle Gloves](Malygos-25) or [Bountiful Gauntlets](Sartharion-25) or [Valorous Earthshatter Handguards] for the four-piece set bonus.
• Waist: [Sash of the Parlor](cloth from Anub'rekhan-25) or [Girdle of the Gambit](Patchwork-25). The sash has +2 mp5 and crit while the girdle has +9 stam and haste.
• Legs: [Valorous Earthshatter Legguards] (Thaddius-25)
• Feet: [Sabatons of Firmament](Sartharion) or [Atonement Greaves](Faerlina -25)
• Finger: [Signet of Manifested Pain](Kel'thuzad-25) or [Seized Beauty](Faerlina-25) or [Ring of Decaying Beauty] (Sapphiron-25)
• Main Hand: [Torch of Holy Fire] (Kel'thudzad-25) or [Hammer of the Astral Plane](Kel'thudzad-10) or [Wraith Strike](Maexxna-25)
• Off-hand: [Voice of Reason](Kel'thudzad-25) or [Shield of Assimilation] (Anub'rikhan-25)
• Relic: [Hateful Gladiator's Totem of the Third Wind]or [Totem of Forest Growth](first thing to buy with badges) or [Totem of the Bay] (30 Venture Coins)

+ Shaman who want to reduce the cost of Chain Heal with two pieces of Tier 6 will want to use [Skyshatter Belt] and [Skyshatter Bracers].

HEP

This is based on Vuldunobetra's original numbers. I think we need two weights -- one for those who just hit 80 and one for those who already have a good bit of WotLK gear. I took a stab at two sets of values but I'm sure Vuld and others can refine them further.

Pitbuller made some valid comments about haste. It does have a cost that other stats do not have. Leaving mathematics aside, it would seem that Crit > Haste since crit has only positive outcomes -- more healing and the opportunity to burn water shield charges. It would seem that our HEP values should reflect this -- with crit being valued slightly higher than haste.

	Just Hit 80	Tier 7
Spell power	5	7
Intellect	7	7
Crit	3	3
Haste	3	3
Mp5	10	10

Gems

	Just Hit 80	Tier 7
Blue	[Dazzling Forest Emerald]	[Royal Twilight Opal]
Red	[Luminous Monarch Topaz]	[Runed Scarlet Ruby]
Yellow	[Brilliant Autumn's Glow]	[Luminous Monarch Topaz]

I've got the Gold!
Here are some BOE items that you can quickly use to pump up your gear upon reaching Level 80.

[Bindings of Yearning] (world drop)
[Titansteel Guardian] (crafted)
[Titanium Spellshock Necklace](crafted)
[Titanium Spellshock Ring](crafted)
[Wispcloak] (crafted)
[Zom's Crackling Bulwark] (world drop) or the cheaper [Frostbridge Orb]

EDIT: Added option for using Tier 6 for set bonus with best in slot.
Should be -5 Int on glove comparison

 

bewmheels

Two items to consider are [Ring of Decaying Beauty] and [Chains of Adoration] because of the amount of haste on them. I am still using T6 Bracers & Belt which i have found to be better than the items you have mentioned purely for regen purposes. Running numbers at around 100mp5 for the 2piece bonus i still can't bring myself to get rid of them. The bonus scales with haste as well and tends to offset a little bit of the negative aspect of haste that Pitbuller has mentioned.

[Skyshatter Belt]30 int
[Skyshatter Bracers]
Total
53 int = 31.8mp5
22mp5
53.8mp5
-----------------------------------------

[Girdle of the Gambit]
[Bindings of the Decrepit]
Total
100 int = 60mp5
35mp5
95mp5
-----------------------------------------

So theres a difference of 41.2 mp5 in favor of 80 items. However as mentioned in previous threads the T6 2 piece is worth quite a lot more than that. Obviously the major differences are in SP and obviously a single target build would ignore this info.

From the perspective of someone who prefers to chain heal ive valued

int(until 24k mana) > haste > spellpower > mp5 > crit

 

caterpillar

For your comparison of replacing the T7 gloves I think your number is wrong on the int stat. Shouldn't it be -5 int. I'm assuming using the orange gem you listed.

 

Sixthy

I would add the [Cloak of Kea Feathers] to the cloak choices (25 valor badges).
I would also add [Shield of Assimilation] to offhand (Anub - Naxx 25).

[Ring of Decaying Beauty] and [Wyrmrest Band] are both great rings for haste builds. (Sapph - Naxx 25 (heroic) and Sartharion respectively).

 

Mem

For Totems please add Totem of the Bay (102 Healing for CH, can be acquired from Venture Coins Vendor, Grizzly Hills). For the wrist slot there are also the Bands of Mutual Respect - they don't sport any manaregen, but are amazing for throughput.

 

d3v

Just an idea I got right now:

We could try to get HEP-Weights by another way.
As example you may want those stats unbuffed:
15000 Mana
2000 Spellpower
30% Crit
300 Haste-Rating
350 MP5

(Wanted Stats - Base Stats) = Equip-sided Stats

Then you calculate how much of each stat you will need.
As example:
X Hasterating = -Y Mp5
So you have to get (Equipsided Mp5 - [Mp5 provided by Int] - [Mp5 provided by Crit]) = Needed Mp5 + Y

1/(Equipsided Mp5 - [Mp5 provided by Int] - [Mp5 provided by Crit] + Y) = Value of 1 Mp5

This way you can get individual HEP and may build a calculator for everyone. If you look at your own stats, the stats you want and HEP if you -COULD- get an item, it helps you choosing without getting an imbalance of stats.

Could someone please calculate how much +heal and +mp5 critrating is worth?

Greets

btw: My english skills are crap. :<
And I'm sorry if we do this already this way round. xD

 

MatsT

While, this is very possible, it's not very useful. Ther isn't any "balance" of stats that you need or want, even if you have 2100 spellpower and 0% crit, 1 spellpower will still be better than 1 crit rating. The value of the stats doesn't change all that much depending on your current gear, and the differences ther is can be covered with a few different lists depending on your approximate gear level.

Besides, how do we create that set of "optimum stats" if we have no way to value the stats since we don't have a HEP scale?

 

hvidgaard

The problem is that you can't give haste a negative value. Haste will have to have a positive value based on how much it improves your troughput but not enough to outweight the negative Mp5, and saying that haste is a bad stat because it lowers your HEP is just telling the world how little of the class you actually understand.

I think that one may need to make 2 scales, HEP for troughput (call it HEP-t), and HEP for longvidity (call that HEP-l) - when ever you look at an piece you know if it is an upgrade to one of the 2 HEPs. If you know you have zero mana problems then you look on the HEP-t scale, if you're borderline you need to keep the HEP-l equal while increasing HEP-t (that would be an upgrade no matter what tho).

I don't have the time atm, but if someone would like to make the two scales based on Int, Mp5, Haste and SP, Crit, Haste, Int respectivly - I can slack some :P

 

Vuldunobetra

As to different HEP ratings for different tiers, that's to be expected, just like TBC. Once we have all the mana regen we need, we probably will be stacking SP (and maybe crit and Haste). You are going that direction by boosting SP in the T7 numbers.

I think Crit importance changes with spell selection. The more someone uses RT/HW/LHW, the more important crit will be (due to AA and IWS). Durnitol has numbers to back this up in the Crit Healing thread.

 

◊ quiddity

[Totem of the Bay] definately needs to be added (I would even argue that with replenishment, this is the superior choice in raiding).

One thing I would like to see, as a 10-man raider (bah to recruitment!) is a list of best-in-slot gear for both ranges. A lot of people are going to be doing 10-man raiding over 25-mans and it would kind of feel like a slap in the face to go to the TTT and only see 25-man stuff.

I understand that the 25-man stuff is, in fact, BiS, but perhaps a list of BiS limited to 10-man/emblems of heroism is also pertinent given the state of raiding today?

 

d3v

You miss understand it.

Example:
You want following values:
Haste: 301
Mp5: 302

Haste decreases your Mp5 by 0,3. (Example!)

Haste HEP Value = (1/301) - (1/302*0,3)


1. Crit isn't that much on items like spellpower. High critrating on an item may be 60, high spellpower on an item may be 110.

2. Well, you build up a calculator and everyone can take his own "optimum stats" depending on feeling, playstyle, raid setup, ect. The more experience you get, the closer the stats are to the optimum

Greets.

 

hvidgaard

It wasn't a reply to you, more a general input to the HEP discussion as a whole

 

radiante

Haste will always have a custom value. Healing is not about who does more HPS its about no letting people die and Haste above any other stat will save people. How many times have you ended up with 0.1sec on your healing when some one died. Other stats can save people also but no as much as Haste.

Also you have to consider that healing is a competition. There is a fixed amount of damage in that has to be split among healers. If someone gets hit and two people with the same cast time start healing him one could get all the healing and the other could only do overheal. This is extremely hard to model in a standard HPS model.

This is why you should use your own values depending how much you value saving people and out speeding vs going out of mana faster.

 

Skyhoof

Thanks for all the excellent feedback.

Yep. Thanks for catching that error.

Added
• [Shield of Assimilation]
• [Totem of the Bay]
• [Ring of Decaying Beauty](Sapphiron-25)
• [Chains of Adoration]


However, I don’t understand why [Cloak of Kea Feathers]would be superior to the two cloaks listed. It’s only advantage is how easy it is to get.

I also don’t see the advantage of [Wyrmrest Band]over [Ring of Decaying Beauty]. Decaying Beauty has +3 haste, -1 SP, the same mp5 and intellect, and +7 stamina. Wyrmrest is worth adding to the list because it has a mix of haste, spellpower and mp5 not found on the two rings already listed.

I can see the case for adding [Bands of Mutual Respect]to the list. All the bracers currently listed have mp5. However, wouldn’t [Unsullied Cuffs]give more healing output? They have 34 haste vs 20 haste on mutual respect. And you get 83 spellpower (gemmed) instead of 56 spellpower. Of course, you’re missing the 43 crit on mutual respect. Anyone care to do the math on which allows more healing output (ignoring mana)?

This idea has a lot of merit and may be a good way to deal with the different approaches shaman use to healing in Wrath. We no longer simply spam Chain Heal. However, we’re not calling them HEP-t and HEP-l. It makes them sound like a bad lab experiment. Instead of HEP-t, let’s call it Heal Points. And instead of HEP-l, let’s call them Mana Points. Now, we just need someone to create a spread sheet to model each.