[Resto] Healing Equivalency Points - Page 5

Maxxtor · 12/05/08, 4:12 PM

Originally Posted by Skyhoof

[*]Waist: [Sash of the Parlor](cloth from Anub'rekhan-25) or [Girdle of the Gambit](Patchwork-25). The sash has +2 mp5 and haste while the girdle has +9 stam and crit.

The sash has +2 mp5 and crit while the girdle has +9stam and haste. Good baseline so far. I will look at everything closer once I leave work.

Sixthy · 12/05/08, 5:41 PM

Well I guess the point was that you could use both the [Ring of Decaying Beauty] and [Wyrmrest Band] at the same time for haste builds. Haste is still going to be king for CH spam in 25 mans. If you want to find your crit in other slots, these would be the 2 rings to use together while sticking with mp5.

The [Cloak of Kea Feathers] is the same story: haste build with mp5.

Crit is nice and I'm sure it's going to have its rightful place in 10's (Believe me, after doing 10 man Sarth with 3 drakes, I realize that crit has its moments - but I still only ran with 25% buffed and did just fine on mana / keeping up with tanks, etc. 750k healing done with LHW + glyph alone) - but I still think haste / mp5 is going to be the stats to stack, making this cloak the best haste / mp5 in the game (at this time).

Kaytikat · 12/05/08, 6:29 PM

Originally Posted by Skyhoof

This idea has a lot of merit and may be a good way to deal with the different approaches shaman use to healing in Wrath. We no longer simply spam Chain Heal. However, we’re not calling them HEP-t and HEP-l. It makes them sound like a bad lab experiment. Instead of HEP-t, let’s call it Heal Points. And instead of HEP-l, let’s call them Mana Points. Now, we just need someone to create a spread sheet to model each.

I already posted a set for CH shaman earlier in the thread which should serve as a good starting point for discussion.

Mem · 12/06/08, 8:50 AM

Originally Posted by Skyhoof

I can see the case for adding [Bands of Mutual Respect]to the list. All the bracers currently listed have mp5. However, wouldn’t [Unsullied Cuffs]give more healing output? They have 34 haste vs 20 haste on mutual respect. And you get 83 spellpower (gemmed) instead of 56 spellpower. Of course, you’re missing the 43 crit on mutual respect. Anyone care to do the math on which allows more healing output (ignoring mana)?

At the moment I don't really go for cloth, especially not something with willpower on it. The reason is simply that there is a very strong competition for cloth drops right now whereas mail gear will rot pretty quickly anyways. In a normal raid there will be no more than 3 competitors for mail spellpower gear (unless some pallies are getting interested, then again they might also be interested in cloth) but at least 8-10 for spellpower cloth. Unless you are really getting swamped with cloth drops you won't have a lot of friends if you go for a cloth item you won't even use that often (as I said, its a throughput piece, not a part of the general all round healing gear).

Ammanas · 12/06/08, 11:00 PM

The thing with the cloth drops is some of them have MP5 and no spirit, so for the most part no priest or druid will ever want them. With the MP5 most DPS will never want them either.

Example off the top of my head being [Sash of the Parlor]. There is no mail belt equivalent for crit ([Necrogenic Belt] is the closest) and with no spirit I doubt you will have any competition.

Orgok · 12/07/08, 11:54 AM

A very easy to get piece that should not be overlooked is the [Beadwork Belt of Shamanic Vision]. With two int gems socketed, it gives a whopping 82int with no ILevel points spent on crit. I have separate weighting for haste/mp5 and crit sets and I consider this best in slot for chain heal spam.

Additionally, the [Spark of Life] is another piece that deserves mention. 73 passive haste is massive for a trinket, and the proc is worth at least 44MP5. Compare this with 106 spellpower and a 25MP5 proc on the [Je'Tze's Bell] and I don't see the comparison.

SlydeWHOOSH · 12/09/08, 12:43 AM

If you are valueing Crit > Haste then why not add to the list the following:

Neck: [Ceaseless Pity]
Wrist: [Iron Rings of Endurance]
Belt: [Necrogenic Belt]
Feet: [Boots of Persistence] or [Treads of Coastal Wandering]
Finger: [Renewal of Life]
Shield: [Protective Barricade of the Light]

With good SP & MP5 maybe they should be considered?

Mem · 12/09/08, 8:17 AM

Originally Posted by Orgok

Additionally, the [Spark of Life] is another piece that deserves mention. 73 passive haste is massive for a trinket, and the proc is worth at least 44MP5. Compare this with 106 spellpower and a 25MP5 proc on the [Je'Tze's Bell] and I don't see the comparison.

While I agree that [Spark of Life] is really worth mentioning, I wouldn't rate its procc as 44 MP5, considering that its 10 % procc chance with an assumed 45 second ICD will lead to less than one ppm in a real fight. Obviously this would also apply to the bell as well.

MatsT · 12/09/08, 8:36 AM

Originally Posted by SlydeWHOOSH

If you are valueing Crit > Haste then why not add to the list the following:

Neck: [Ceaseless Pity]
Wrist: [Iron Rings of Endurance]
Belt: [Necrogenic Belt]
Feet: [Boots of Persistence] or [Treads of Coastal Wandering]
Finger: [Renewal of Life]
Shield: [Protective Barricade of the Light]

With good SP & MP5 maybe they should be considered?

It's not as simple as valuing crit > haste. Even if i think crit is better than haste, haste is far from worthless, and the other way around.

Looking for example at the shield example, if we compare [Shield of Assimilation] and [Protective Barricade of the Light] the actual tradeoff is:

25 crit rating and 7 stamina
versus
7 spellpower, 9 intellect and 38 Haste rating.

I mean, even if you removed all of the haste on the second shield, it could still be argued which one was best, and now it's quite obvious that the former has no reason to be on a "best in slot" list. Personally, i value [Voice of Reason] over both of them, but i could accept [Shield of Assimilation] for an mp5 setup mostly relying on chain heal spamming.

The same can be said for 90% of the items people in this thread have suggested we add. Even if you value the stats slightly differently, 13 ilvls can not be made up for by simply swapping haste for crit.

d3v · 12/11/08, 11:39 AM

I think "best in slot"-discussions are pretty useless, if you don't have the other parts of gear.
If you have already 400mp5 while casting (unbuffed) you won't prefer a item with even more longlivity-stats. I think we should build up a whole "perfect" gear. :P

Greets

Spasticon · 12/11/08, 12:10 PM

Originally Posted by Skyhoof

	Just Hit 80	Tier 7
Spell power	5	7
Intellect	7	7
Crit	3	3
Haste	3	3
Mp5	10	10

Using these values and the new wowhead stat weighting:

Just Hit 80: Gear by slot

Tier 7: All Gems

Edit:

In comparing wowhead to lootrank it's fairly obvious that lootrank is still a superior tool. The main shortcoming in wowhead that I see at the moment is that it is not calculating gem slots correctly, nor doing best gem vs. matching gem + slot bonus analysis.

Edit:

The default Shaman Restoration preset on wowhead is as follows:

	Just Hit 80	Tier 7	wowhead
Spell power	5	7	7.6
Intellect	7	7	8.7
Crit	3	3	3.4
Haste	3	3	5.7
Mp5	10	10	10

Not sure where they got those values from.

Edit:

No specific class/spec credit is given but they do credit Rawr and EJ forums. Still not sure how they ended up at the resto values shown above

Latest Site Updates! - WoW General - Wowhead Forums

donor · 12/12/08, 6:36 AM

Those links show gear 'usable by Warlock'

Spasticon · 12/12/08, 10:22 AM

Originally Posted by donor

Those links show gear 'usable by Warlock'

Oh. Fixed. I'm more retarded than I thought.

• Shifft · 12/13/08, 10:41 PM

I would add [Girdle of Recuperation] to your best in slot list, from your currently listed one ([Girdle of the Gambit]) it's:

-7 int | -1 haste | -20 mp5 | +57 crit | +2 stam

Definitely a decent trade-off in my opinion. It drops from Instructor Razuvious in Naxx25.

Zogeth · 12/14/08, 8:58 AM

Originally Posted by Shifft

I would add [Girdle of Recuperation] to your best in slot list, from your currently listed one ([Girdle of the Gambit]) it's:

-7 int | -1 haste | -20 mp5 | +57 crit | +2 stam

Definitely a decent trade-off in my opinion. It drops from Instructor Razuvious in Naxx25.

If you use the HEP that were suggested in this thread, then the latter item is actually better, as the HEP recomendation lists mp5 as 10, and crit as 3.

I think this is where HEP falls down a bit. It should never be used as something to dictate which piece of gear is better than another. It all depends on the boss fight, on your raid, on the instance and on how many healers you have. For instance:

Mp5 gear would be a waste on Loatheb,
HEP for a AoE damage fight (Razuvius, Malygos springs to mind) would favor haste.

Sixthy · 12/14/08, 5:01 PM

Both are definitely good belts. In a perfect world, you'd probably want both. Personally, I'd wear the first (the one Shifft listed) for the majority of fights. If we get a fight that lasts upwards of 7 minutes in Ulduar, I'd consider the Gambit.

Sunchips · 12/15/08, 3:49 AM

Originally Posted by Mem

While I agree that [Spark of Life] is really worth mentioning, I wouldn't rate its procc as 44 MP5, considering that its 10 % procc chance with an assumed 45 second ICD will lead to less than one ppm in a real fight. Obviously this would also apply to the bell as well.

40% proc on 4 target Chain heal cast. Use it for a full raid sometime, you definitely will get almost always 1 ppm (barring some random timed fight or if you proc it immediately before combat).

Mahade · 12/15/08, 5:53 AM

I've not yet been able to read why you people rate MP5 so high. If you only do 25-man runs, as in: you raid with a guild and do no heroics or 10-mans at all, MP5 is as useless to my Resto Shaman as strength is. There's simply too much mana coming back from the raid to justify sacrificing spellhaste, spellcrit, spellpower, intellect or even stamina. Given the choice between 10 MP5 or 10 stamina, I'd definitely take the stamina. The reasoning is simple: a dead Shaman sucks at healing. I doubt I need logfiles to prove that.

That said, MP5 in 5-mans or 10-mans is undeniably powerful. Beyond that, it's junk.

Unbuffed (no water shield either) I have 111 MP5 in combat. And I have no mana problems whatsoever

Sixthy · 12/15/08, 6:43 AM

I've pretty much been basing my returns off of 5 minute fights (just an avg I guess).

Unbuffed my mp5 returns around 24,000 mana through the course of a 5 minutes fight.
Replenishment (unbuffed) will return around 17,500 mana through the course of a 5 minute fight.
Raid buffed my mana is around 27,500 - 28,200 (depends on what I have on) which brings it closer to 21,000 (replenishment that is).

That's not counting mana spring, mana tide, pot, etc.

No advanced math or anything, but it's pretty obvious that both come out to be pretty equal and both are good to shoot for. I'm running at 23.2k unbuffed mana atm with around 380-400 in combat mp5. It's a decent balance for the time being.

Just depends on where Ulduar goes with gear.

Mahade · 12/15/08, 7:50 AM

Makes sense if you look at it like that. I was in doubt because, when MP5 really "matters" (my logic here is flawed, bear with me a second) you are almost out of mana. Having 300 or 400 MP5 (for argument's sake) doesn't seem to matter much with healing spells costing an average of 900 mana each. But obviously, MP5 starts counting the minute you finished casting your first spell.

Still, running Naxx (just cleared it first last night) I've never run into any problems. I used to swallow mana pots whenever they were up pre-3.0, but nowadays I never seem to need it anymore. Only on Kel'thuzad I needed to use Mana Tide, but only because my Hunters were running low on mana for some reason.

I'd still advice people who exclusively do 25-man instances to prioritize MP5 a lot lower, assuming their raids provide plenty of replenishment.

Mem · 12/15/08, 7:59 AM

Originally Posted by Sunchips

40% proc on 4 target Chain heal cast. Use it for a full raid sometime, you definitely will get almost always 1 ppm (barring some random timed fight or if you proc it immediately before combat).

If you are really spamming CH that might be true. However I used our own WWS logs to check how often the spark really procced and as soons as you start to use single target spells or stop spamcasting you will never archieve 1 PPM. Theorycraft is nice and well but you should always consider actual circumstances (which is also the issue with weighting regen stats, their worth really really depends on the situation).

Even with CoH/WG nerfs I just don't see us going back to spamming CH mindlessly as we did in BC in the end. If this happens, regen stats will be much more in demand than they are now (I'm already considering going back to SP/Haste oriented sockets because I often do not even have to use tide/pot).

Handyhoof · 12/15/08, 9:42 AM

Originally Posted by Sunchips

40% proc on 4 target Chain heal cast.

Just to clear this up, that's a little high.

1-(.9^4) = 0.3439

If you are hitting 4 people with your cast, it's a 34.39% chance to proc.

Vuldunobetra · 12/15/08, 11:21 AM

Originally Posted by Zogeth

I think this is where HEP falls down a bit. It should never be used as something to dictate which piece of gear is better than another.

I've repeated several times on this thread that HEP is not supposed to dictate which piece of gear to wear.

Bolbot · 12/15/08, 8:49 PM

Originally Posted by Mem

While I agree that [Spark of Life] is really worth mentioning, I wouldn't rate its procc as 44 MP5, considering that its 10 % procc chance with an assumed 45 second ICD will lead to less than one ppm in a real fight. Obviously this would also apply to the bell as well.

From this 2 dragon Sarth WWS, Wow Web Stats
[Spark of Life] procced 6 times during the 7 minute fight.

176*3 (mana per proc) * 6 = 3168 mana for the fight. ~37 mp5

Xoya · 12/16/08, 5:39 AM

Originally Posted by Vuldunobetra

I've repeated several times on this thread that HEP is not supposed to dictate which piece of gear to wear.

I'm not attempting to seem snarky or anything. But .. what is the point of HEP if not to compare items against eachother? I guess I'm a bit lost by your comment.