cerebes

I'm sorry if this is a really newb question but myself and and friend have been trying to consider the importance of Improved Water Shield. Sometimes the burning of WS charges from Improved Water Shield seems to create so many extra problems due to burning WS globes and having to recast Water Shield (burning a gcd) that we were considering putting less points into it to reduce the chance that an orb was removed and improve amount of casting time available. This is dependant upon having no mana issues, etc. I really haven't been able to find any information on this consideration in this thread.

We were considering around the idea that if you got hit too many times by random affects you could be losing the WS prematurely (if you didn't need the mana, ie. a short fight) or hit not enough to trigger it to put a few talent points from Imp. WS into something else that could be spent elsewhere.

Since the Water Shield is based upon a set amount of Mp5 we considered that it might get to the point that Int may be more important than wasting a GCD than recasting it than to keep it up and I'd like to here anyone's calculations on this point.

 

Kelso

Given those numbers, what would be the value of a gem slot?

 

• Juice

What would you put in the gem slot? What's the value of that gem?

There's your answer. Think before you post.

 

• Juice

I have a better idea - figure it out for yourself.

How much is a single water orb worth in mana? How many seconds of no water shield MP5 regen does it take to equal 1 orb? What about 4 orbs (assuming you have the glyph)? So how many seconds would you have to be GCD locked for IMP water shield to be less mana overall?

I haven't done these calcs, and I don't intend to do so. You can figure this out for yourself. I find the request annoying because it's trivially easy to figure this out, but you want us to feed you like a helpless baby bird.

If you don't want to figure this out, fine, just do what I do - put 3/3 into imp water shield and refresh water shield frequently in the fight. I've never had a fight where I was unable to find the time to keep water shield up 100% of the time.

 

Iezzo

Very good point. I wanted to expound on this proc rate though.

1 Target hit (1/10 chance) 10% proc chance ~ (9/10 miss) 90% miss
2 Targets hit (19/100 chance) 19% proc chance ~ (81/100 miss) 81% miss
3 Targets hit (271/1000 chance) 27.1% proc chance ~ (729/1000 miss) 72.9% miss
4 Targets hit (3439/10000 chance) 34.4% proc chance ~ (6561/10000 miss) 65.6% miss

It was earlier described as a 10% chance to proc trinket with a 4 hit CH would equal 40% chance to proc. What we have to keep in mind is that every time a spell is cast there is only a 10% chance.

 

Kelso

Maybe I need to rephrase the question. Let's assume I'm gemming all 16 intellect. So I have Skyhoof's table of stat weights, but when I'm looking at a piece of gear with a gem slot, that gear would effectively have 16 more intellect than is stated. So I've got a constant that should be given weight, I just don't know how to derive a value that's normalized to the other stat weights.

I'd happily do the math myself if I knew where to start. I understand this is a quick and dirty gear comparison; I'd be thrilled with an educated guess.

 

caterpillar

It is meant to be used to compare gear, but there are also times when adding more throughput is only going to cause more problems and a piece of gear with less HEP, but more longevity stats would be better. There is also a point where adding more longevity stats is pointless and you would want to add more throughput. Basically, HEP is just a guideline and you need to consider your current stats and the situations you typically encounter in raids.

 

MatsT

I was just thinking the same thing. The entire point of HEP is to compare different items easily and accurately without doing all the calculations on how many % healing each of the two will add in a fight.

Obviously, the case might be that there are different HEP scales for different fights, depending on how long it is, if there are any down periods, your raid setup, etc etc. I suppose it is up to everyone if they want to keep one scale that is balanced to be best on average but never optimal or if they want to have several scales and swap around a lot of gear depending on the encounter. I will probably make something like a "max throughput" gear, for situations where it's simply impossible to run out of mana, but that's relatively uncommon in encounters that are actually hard, so i don't see myself picking up a lot of elemental gear just for these occasions.

 

Spasticon

I like Pawn for this because you can create multiple different HEP tables and have them all display in the tooltip.

I agree HEP is a quick guide. I'd say in most cases it gets you 90% of the way to an excellent gear decision. Sometimes you need to think for yourself though. Doesn't seem that difficult.

Kelso: Check my previous post (on page 5). There are links to the wowhead gem lists using HEP.

 

Vuldunobetra

One of the most simplistic methods of ranking gear is by ilvl. A 213 ilvl item is better than a 187 ilvl item, unless the 213 item is for a rogue and the 187 item is for a resto shaman. Even with two 213 ilvl items designed for a resto shaman, one may be more desirable than the other.

Think of HEP as a specialized ilvl for resto shamans. It will give a ranking for the items. In isolation, the rankings do well for each specific item for a generic resto shaman. But it is up to the player to decide which item fits their need best. You could gear up just by equipping the best available HEP item at each spot. Maybe you'll get a well-balanced mix of the stats you need. Or you might not have enough mp5 to finish a fight.

Mana (starting mana plus regen from MP5, water shield, replenishment, mana pots, etc) is highly important for healers. That's why mp5 has a higher value than all other stats. Yet as soon as you have enough mana to heal the most challenging fight, additional mana has almost no value. That's why a static value for MP5, like HEP provides, is limited in usefulness. HEP only points you in the right direction, it doesn't replace your brain. The same applies for crit, haste, etc. The specific fight you are on, your assignment and the mix of spells you use all make a difference in the stats you should prefer.

I use HEP as a way to sort items on WowHead. Instead of looking at 100's of cloaks, some with +STR or +AGI, I get the best ones sorted right to the top. Then I can decide which one fits my needs the best.

 

Xoya

Fair enough! So HEP is much more simplistic than enhancement shaman EP, which (with the right precision, i.e. running EnhSim on our own gear) provides us accurate upgrades to our characters. An item that has a value of 305 EP is flat-out better than one with 300 EP.

Is there anything that -can- be done then to allow HEP to be more like EP? I've seen mention of having multiple HEP types, like CH-HEP and LHW-HEP. That honestly seems like one of the best splits to me. Tack on a separate Regen-HEP (only calculates regen stats) and you're good to go.

 

saladami

I'm trying to heal in half and half mp5 and non-mp5 gear. The non-mp5 gear is obviously meant for elemental shamans but usually lacks hit. I gem exclusively for int/SP (orange gems for red and yellow slots) and SP/mp5 (purple in blue slots). I am not one of those trendy LHW spamming shamans, I use chain heal and riptide recklessly attempting to use all my mana. I also value crit over haste which is probably wrong for my play style, but as you can see the mp5-less gear usually has both. My logic has always been that because the 2nd-3rd-4th jump of chain heal doesn't scale very well with +SP, it does improve dramatically when it crits.

A few gear examples (that I wear):
[Bands of Mutual Respect]
[Eruption-Scarred Boots]
[Helmet of the Inner Sanctum]

I think if you stack enough int, mp5's use is negligible. I don't mean actually gemming for or seeking gear with high Int. But when a shaman in mostly Naxx25 gear goes into Naxx25 they just can't seem to run out of mana. I'm still keeping the pieces with 20+ mp5 on them in my bank just in case.

Blizzard wants resto shamans to stack mp5, so they will probably nerf replenishment or int on our gear somehow if it is actually possible to ignore it as a stat. The only 25 man fight I've seen last more than 5 minutes was a busted "10 people down" sapphiron first kill, in which I primarily used Healing Wave and did not go OOM.

 

Handyhoof

That's a decent line of inquiry, and it comes down to: we're still early into lvl 80 content. This means we're also on the low end of incoming damage and gear.

If I can break down your post into two points it would read: I don't run out of mana. Stacking int means you can ignore mp5.

Not running out of mana is most easily challenged with fights where you need more throughput, and Haste is our best throughput stat, which scales your mana use at the same rate.

Stacking int and ignoring mp5 is a separate point that needs context. If you're gemming, the budget allows you to get more out of an int gem than an mp5 gem. In equal amounts, mp5 beats Int for longevity, but good luck finding a real world (in-game) example where that choice exists.

I don't like baselessly speculating on what Blizzard may do to change the situation, but I don't see a simple tweak being effective.

 

hvidgaard

If you have Replenishment in your raid, the same quality gems, the Int gem will give you more mana in a fight of 10min and shorter. Basicly a 60% uptime of Replenishment and only one Mana Tide totem (i.e. you're the only Resto Shammy) 1 Int == 0.5 Mp5 and since you have to make a choise between 8 Mp5 and 16 Int it's not hard to see the Int is far superior.

 

Mahade

Is it safe to state the following?

"MP5 is only useful if you run out of mana in your non-MP5-gear."

Because so far I've been giving up on MP5 gear wherever I can, focusing myself on spellhaste, spellpower, intelligence and crit rating (in that order) and haven't ran out of mana even once.

That is: All the 10-man and 25-man instances. I think I've only ever used 10 mana potions in the past 2 weeks of clearing Naxxramas and the other instances. And I only had to use them whenever we had a few dead healers that I needed to compensate for.

For the current content, I think MP5 is very much overrated. Perhaps Ulduar and other future instances will change that for numerous reasons, but for now I am going to stack up on:

1. Haste rating
2. Spellpower
3. Intellect
4. Crit rating

Effectively ignoring MP5 whenever I can just to prove a point

 

Kandrel

Has anyone tried doing the math for the practical cap for MP5? There has got to be a point at which with all of a resto shaman's tricks, you simply can't spend mana fast enough over a prolonged period to actually run out? I find the 10 EP per MP5 to be incredibly inflated compared to the practical effect that I've seen from it. With the assumption you'll have some acceptable baseline of raid buffs (including replenishment), how far from subsistence with diffferent healing rotations are you?

 

Handyhoof

According to my personal spreadsheet (given all my numbers), MP5 value drops to 0 after attaining 758 unbuffed. That's the point for me where I can't give my mana away. That's a crazy number and unneeded in practicality. I run with 140 unbuffed in my Balanced gearset.

Using the same spreadsheet to put together an itemization point system comes up with:

1 SP: 1.05
1 Crit: 0.40
1 Int: 2.74
1 MP5: 3.46

Using itemization weights (for gems specifically) turns that into:

SP: 19.87
Crit: 6.38
Int: 43.93
MP5: 20.75

In reality, I mostly follow that except I swap in Crit gear for tank healing, Int gear for long fights, and Haste gear for twitchy fights.

Now, I did this math because Kandel's question made me curious and is meant merely as an example. I don't claim that this is the best gearing for any given Shaman.

 

MatsT

Firstly, you need to keep in mind that if mana is not a problem , Intellect is also a very VERY bad stat. The amount of spellpower and crit it gives is not much compared to what raw spellpower and haste gives you.

Secondly, keep in mind that mp5 is usually a much more "efficient" stat that crit (and obviously haste). The amount of healing you can do with your entire mana pool over 5 minutes will benefit much more from mp5. This means that mp5 (and Intellect) is only bad in infinite mana situations. Hopefully, those situations should be less frequent when the encounters doesn't allow you to bring 3-4 healers more than needed and you can use HW without overhealing too much.

 

damdifino

As my first post on these forums, I hope to contribute something worthwhile to the discussion.

My gear is mainly 25-man gear from Naxx with some pieces of 10-man sprinkled in. In the current 25-man raiding environment, I never run out of mana. My healing mainly consists of the CH > LHW > LHW rotation, but I change it depending on the situation. I never use HW, for the overhealing problems addressed in other topics on this forum.

The main thing I wonder has to do with the 3.0.8 patch. It is already common knowledge that both the Priests and Druids will now have a 6 second CD on their AoE heals. Does this mean that we will once again be asked to spam CH?

In my case, there are a few minor upgrades available, but nothing that exciting. While there is better gear for my current tasks, I am attempting to build a set of gear that I expect to maximize the needs of the next change. Furthermore, we only have 2 resto Shaman and about 5 holy Paladins who attend every 25-man raid.

If, in fact, that the next patch changes the main task of the resto Shaman back to CH spam, then I assume that SP, Int, and Haste to be the most important stats. While MP5 may find its way back to being the most important stat by far, we simply do not have encounters that last long enough to stress our mana. I also feel that Int is extremely close to MP5 in terms of effectiveness.

Using a hybrid system of HEP's along with my own ideas of what to expect, I am using these HEPs to determine upgrades (based on the hypothesis that we will once again be constantly CHing):

MP5 = 8
Int = 7
SP = 6
Haste = 5
Crit = 3
Stam = 1

Obviously, MP5 has been lowered due to its lack of necessity. I have been very happy with the amount of mana returned from replenishment and other bonuses that Int provides. Haste benefits CH more so it has been bumped.

Also, since mana is a non-issue, I am much more focused on throughput and currently get my CH to just under 2 sec when fully raid buffed. I have also been gemming for +Haste whenever the socket bonus is a non-interest (Check out my chestpiece for an example.).

Is anyone else doing something similar to this to prepare for the next patch? If so, I would appreciate any ideas.

 

donor

So if you got 2 resto shamans and 5 holy paladins, why bother with priest and druid changes?

Personally i think the 6 sec cd isn't going to change that much. We usually run with 2 priests and 2 druids. Which means that you got 2 CoH and 2 WG every 6 seconds, when needed. I might get a little less overheal on my CH's, but I don't see myself going for a very different healing strategy.
The lack of challenging encounters also doesn't make me think it matters that much

 

Vuldunobetra

It would be possible to compute HEP values for CH-HEP, LHW-HEP, etc. Someone else can take up the ball. I see it mainly as a theoretical exercise with very little practical use. I'm using all my spells, not just spamming a single one. I don't want to go back to using a single spell the entire fight again.

 

Handyhoof

It was pretty trivial to run my stats through my sheet while on lunchbreak to come up with individual HEP weights for CH and LHW. If you really want numbers to look at: here you go.

CH -
SP: 1.17
Crit: 0.45
Int: 3.01
MP5: 4.18

LHW -
SP: 1.03
Crit: 1.87
Int: 3.47
MP5: 3.96

Those should be about what you'd expect. Please use wisely.

 

Vuldunobetra

You didn't indicate how you came to these values. I'll assume that your spreadsheet calculates how much additional healing you can do over some fixed time for each additional point of each stat, Your numbers show that the biggest gains are from mana regen (MP5, Int and Crit w/IWS). I'd assume you don't have enough mana to cast as much as your model would allow you to.

If another person, with much higher mana regen, used your same model, their numbers would be completely different. They would probably value SP over anything else (maybe haste too).

So while your numbers may be accurate for you, they do little good for any one else.

PS - The [Nerubian Leg Armor] isn't doing much good for you.

 

Handyhoof

Exactly. That's the worry about using a blind HEP system. Those numbers are only good for a certain model under certain assumptions with certain stats. We may as well have a different sat of weights based on "having Replenishment vs not" as well.

And yeah, I'm terribly behind on my gear.

Edit: I don't mind having a starting point for people, but I really think that the work to be optimizing any one person's gear to their playstyle/spec/whatever should be done by that person. Towards that end, some transparency of my spreadsheet might help someone else build their own.

I take mana regen stats and calculate mana salary, and cast rate vs mana cost (normalized for IWS w/crit) to come up with a mana velocity. I then take Throughput stats to develop an average heal (normalized for crit, latency, overheal and hot proc w/cutoff). The trick then is to come up with a balance of Mana velocity vs Throughput, where you use have to develop a scalar (which is 100% intuition and experience). I then multiply that by throughput and divide by mana drain to generate a final value. This can then be used to compare one piece of gear to another in that specific model.

 

Joulakil

MP5 and Int are dead stats once you're at the point that you never oom. Although we have the talent or whatsoever, the main purpose of int is mana pool. Now it's time to stack Spell Power and Haste, get MP5 from the gear but the gems should all about haste / spell power.

From what i see, Haste is for chain heal spam in 25man raid and Crit is for 5man instance, so you can proc water shield by spamming riptide, lhw, and hw.