[Elemental] Rotations

Binkenstein · 11/22/08, 2:06 AM

Elemental Spell Rotations, the haste quandary, whether to use CL/ES... etc

Work so far from me:
Fixed rotation scaling: http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?k...ySmM8AeA&hl=en
Rotation scaling comparisons: http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?k...IrnGkfLg&hl=en
Cooldown waiting: http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?k...IVSlHJLw&hl=en

[e]NOTE! The fixed rotations in the spreadsheets above are now reduntant. A priority system is the prefered method now. Stop sending me messages saying you don't understand the 4/4 notation (which means the number of LBs after each LvB)

Mitrandir · 11/22/08, 11:36 AM

I'll give you the answers fro the other topic here

First: the graphs are horrible. Black backgrounds make it hard to read them
Second: Using 2% intervals is too large. Try 0.5 or 0.1%. You might then see something similar to this (and I'm not even including CL/ES in that)
Third: What's the point in looking at more than 50-60% haste? We're not going to be able to get anywhere near that yet, even with heroism & haste buffs/procs.
Fourth: You may want to watch your spelling/grammar too.

1. Just a question of personal preference. I see a better color contrast with black bg.
2. I usually size the intervall accordingly to the graph x-axis size. And in fact that we have a constant 1. grade forumla in the background i don't see any specific reason to go to a lesser detail to just show a graph.
3. true - i just wanted to show the that all rotations end up somewhere at a limit. and usually showing more that just a specific interfall gives usually also better understandig of the wholething
4. Well, sorry but i'm not native speaker and i'll try my best - without spending more than on correction that writing a post.

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back to topic:
Here some links again to my "researches"

Rotation Study based on Haste on European Shaman Forum
Graphs that shows various different Rotations - also with with the use CL in different ways
Source file of my calcs

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About our spreadsheets:

I think you made some mistakes in your rotation calculations. The kinks in the graphs are actually that way, that you loose DPS at a given time, which should be impossible. I cheched your spreadsheet and probably found the problems.

Flameshock DoT dmg: your formula assume that the DOT never really run out - but fact is: a glpyhed FS has a dot uptome of 18secs and a rotations with 2 LvB has at least a time of 18secs between 2 FS. Here you can take the full DoT dmg into account.
Castime: I think you missed the FS cooldown in it. You only take cell B11 twice into account instead of 3 times

Cooldown waiting sheet:
I don't exactly see is how you choose the point of switching the rotation. The fact that your graph show a loss in DPS means it must be somehow wrong. - IMHO you never loose DPS on any level of haste during a rotaion with 2 LvB and 1 FS. and if you do so while switching, you missed the perfect point.
You compare the DPS of a waiting LB with the DPS of a LB+LvB as far as i understand. But you really should compare the whole rotation dps at this point to make the decission of switching or not

Binkenstein · 11/22/08, 7:23 PM

Lava Burst Cooldown: 8 seconds
2 cooldowns: 16 seconds.
FS dot duration: 18 seconds.

If we start with Flame Shock, we have 18 seconds before the dot runs out, and logically the two lava burst cooldowns would fit into this.
However, it is best to cast the next flame shock before the third lava burst, so the duration of the dot is not actually as long as you think it is.
Ideally, to get the full effect of the flame shock dot, your rotation needs to be 18 seconds plus one global cooldown.
If your rotation is shorter than that, you lose the last flame shock tick, but if it is longer you may lose dps from leaving LvB off cooldown.

I've updated my sheet again to make sure that there is a maximum of 6 flame shock dot ticks, and I'm still seeing the same "bumps".

Headspace Cools · 11/23/08, 2:23 AM

That's true in single-mob DPS but for trash pulls and bosses with multiple targets the ideal setup is to repop a FS on a new target right when it cools down, then retarget previous (already FS'd target) and pop out the second Lava.

Zomglazerpew · 11/23/08, 6:20 AM

I'm confused is to how I should be reading this. What are the 4/4, 5/4 and etc in the first graph? And also the 3rd graph has some problems with overlapping in the columns (D, O, and S on sheet1).

Chant · 11/23/08, 7:46 AM

Originally Posted by Binkenstein

If we start with Flame Shock, we have 18 seconds before the dot runs out, and logically the two lava burst cooldowns would fit into this.
However, it is best to cast the next flame shock before the third lava burst, so the duration of the dot is not actually as long as you think it is.
Ideally, to get the full effect of the flame shock dot, your rotation needs to be 18 seconds plus one global cooldown.
If your rotation is shorter than that, you lose the last flame shock tick, but if it is longer you may lose dps from leaving LvB off cooldown.

Just for clarification: that sounds as if we might have to choose between reapplying flame shock before the previous DoT runs out on the one hand and leaving LvB off cooldown on the other. But, as Mitrandir already pointed out, we can get the full effect from FS without having to worry about the LvB cd. With the gcd from the initial FS, plus the casttime for 2 LvBs, the entire rotation easily takes more than 18 seconds.

Binkenstein · 11/23/08, 1:11 PM

Originally Posted by Chant

Just for clarification: that sounds as if we might have to choose between reapplying flame shock before the previous DoT runs out on the one hand and leaving LvB off cooldown on the other. But, as Mitrandir already pointed out, we can get the full effect from FS without having to worry about the LvB cd. With the gcd from the initial FS, plus the casttime for 2 LvBs, the entire rotation easily takes more than 18 seconds.

Your first point is quite correct.
However, the second point about not worrying about that extra tick is incorrect, as you should be using Flame Shock as part of the LvB-cooldown rotation. As I've said before, when the rotation length is less than 18+ 1 GCD, you will run into dot clipping problems. (without haste, that is 22.2 seconds, max haste 21 seconds)

Ghando · 11/24/08, 1:11 PM

Finally got some WOTLK raiding in this weekend, and I was pretty happy with my damage considering I'm still wearing BT and Sunwell gear in most slots. I'm short on hit and that hurt me in a few fights where Flame Shock would miss repeatedly. I found that in practice the "ideal rotation" was changed by the need to move, and whenever I had to move I took the opportunity to refresh Flame Shock (assuming I didn't need to re-plant totems). Does this make the most sense of all the things I could do if I have to take a few steps to re-position?

Binkenstein · 11/24/08, 1:31 PM

What I've been doing is only casting Flame Shock when the dot runs out, so my rotation is probably less than "ideal", but it makes it easier than counting out bolts in my head.
As for re-applying it when moving, you're doing zero dps when moving. Even if shocks are just off cooldown, throwing it out then is still a dps increase.

Phlis · 11/24/08, 1:33 PM

Originally Posted by Ghando

I found that in practice the "ideal rotation" was changed by the need to move, and whenever I had to move I took the opportunity to refresh Flame Shock (assuming I didn't need to re-plant totems). Does this make the most sense of all the things I could do if I have to take a few steps to re-position?

I don't know, I think I'd Earth Shock as long as the Flame Shock Dot has > 6 seconds left on it. The Frontloaded damage of Flameshock is less damage then 3 ticks of the DoT unless it crits. But if the DoT is running low, less then 5 seconds, I'd definately refresh it.

Ghando · 11/24/08, 1:41 PM

Yeah, the big question was Earth Shock vs. Flame Shock (since we're talking about a scenario where totems don't need to be refreshed). The six-second rule of thumb is probably best.

As for haste, with ~10% haste (including WoA and gear, not Bloodlust or similar temporary buffs), I was having to wait a half-second in the middle of the rotation for Lava Burst because I didn't want to throw another Lightning Bolt to fill the time and end up throwing my end-of-rotation Lava Burst at the extreme end of Flame Shock (risking a non-crit if I lagged even a tiny bit). It actually felt more comfortable when I swapped out WoA for Windfury, so at least with current gear levels it seems like ~5% total haste is most comfortable. My plan for tonight is to swap out my TBC haste/spellpower gems for pure hit rating. I'll pick up a nice chunk of hit worth far more than the lost spellpower, and drop my haste from gear to 1-2%. Assuming WoA, I anticipate higher overall damage and more comfort with the rotation. You need quite a bit of haste to reliably squeeze in an extra bolt before that middle Lava Burst.

fandros · 11/24/08, 3:19 PM

Spellpower 2600
Crit Chance 45.00%
Spell damage values from Elemental Shaman WotLK Haste Scaling Spreadsheet

This is a very linear result which shows a gain of about 25.9 dps per 1% haste.
I used a smart wait to determine the numbers of LB (x) and (y) (which did not stay constant for this graph). This is done with zero latency. For practical purpose of deciding (x) and (y) should I add say .1 to all cast values?

Ghando · 11/24/08, 7:50 PM

Yes, Haste increases damage pretty linearly just like it always has. Not sure why everyone insists on modelling haste up to ridiculous levels like 50%. I'm contending that unless you can get enough Haste to drop your LB cast under 1.6s (squeezing in 5 bolts + lag between Lava Bursts), it's not paying great dividends and you're better served by capping your hit. Otherwise you find yourself either waiting for Lava Burst to cool down, or casting that fifth LB anyway and losing DPS through non-crit Lava Bursts or extra applications of Flame Shock. Obviously, casting some damaging spell is preferable to doing nothing.

Binkenstein · 11/24/08, 10:00 PM

Originally Posted by fandros

Spellpower 2600
Crit Chance 45.00%
Spell damage values from Elemental Shaman WotLK Haste Scaling Spreadsheet
http://i37.tinypic.com/xp7ixd.jpg
This is a very linear result which shows a gain of about 25.9 dps per 1% haste.
I used a smart wait to determine the numbers of LB (x) and (y) (which did not stay constant for this graph). This is done with zero latency. For practical purpose of deciding (x) and (y) should I add say .1 to all cast values?

Can you provide the spreadsheet you used to calculate this?

Ravhin · 11/25/08, 3:51 AM

Ballpark ratios
Spent some time on this myself and looked at a couple of rotation options. It turns out that on average:
- 10 spellpower rating -> 13.5-14.5 dps (within 20%-45% crit and 300-600 haste)
- 10 spellhaste rating -> 13-18 dps (within 20%-45% crit and 1200-3000 spellpower)
- 10 spellcrit rating -> 4-5.5 dps (same ranges as above)
The curves are not completely linear but close enough. So stacking haste above spellpower becomes interesting when gear gets you above 1600 spellpower (assuming raid/selfbuff is around 600). Stacking crit is, like in TBC, not very interesting. Considering LvB is 100% crit anyway because of the FS dot, it is just fine to use the crit that happens to be on the gear and leave it at that.

Haste at 450
On all rotations I looked at (incl CL and ES rotations, and both) there is a 'flattening' zone from 450-550 haste due to rotations getting screwed some and where extra haste yields less dps per rating point. It is actually staggered as the other posters have shown above, but bottomline is it turns out to be less effective to keep stacking haste here until you get above 550 again (which seems kinda hard with current top end gear, assuming no trinkets are procced).

Earthshock and rotations
When assuming the ES glyph works as intended, the dmg/casttime or GCDtime ranks: FS-ES-LvB-Cl-LB. However, if the GCD advantage of ES stays at 0.5s even at greater haste, an ES based rotation is not really better then a FS/LvB/CLx/LBy. Using ES and CL makes it about 2% better but is a cumbersome rotation to keep up effectively.
Also, if you suffer just a bit from lag or are a bit slow on the key-release, adding 0.1s (not a strange number at all) already destroys the advantage. With 0.2s added it is actually worse then the other rotations.
On top of this, the CD of the shocks is not nicely fitting into the LvB CD making rotations awkward, the range of ES is limited, ES scales worse then the other spells, and you need to put at least some points in Reverberation that you can use elsewhere (granted there is not an amazing talent left, but still).
Conclusion1: not worth glyphing and using under current circumstances
Conclusion2: FS/LvB/CLx/LBy seems the way to go. It's a couple of % better then simple FS/LvB/LBx

Flameshock ticks
As for FS, of course it pays enormously to let FS tick 6 times. I'd say you can mix it in the LvB/CL/LB rotation whenever the tick runs out, as long as you do it as soon as this happens and ensure there is a dot on when casting LvB
Alternatively you can cast it just before the 3rd LvB but that gives you 5 ticks or cast LvB a little slower. Not completely optimal but easy to remember...

Hope this contributes and confirms some of the work done here....