• Binkenstein

Elemental Spell Rotations, the haste quandary, whether to use CL/ES... etc

Work so far from me:
Fixed rotation scaling: http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?k...ySmM8AeA&hl=en
Rotation scaling comparisons: http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?k...IrnGkfLg&hl=en
Cooldown waiting: http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?k...IVSlHJLw&hl=en

[e]NOTE! The fixed rotations in the spreadsheets above are now reduntant. A priority system is the prefered method now. Stop sending me messages saying you don't understand the 4/4 notation (which means the number of LBs after each LvB)

 

Mitrandir

I'll give you the answers fro the other topic here
1. Just a question of personal preference. I see a better color contrast with black bg.
2. I usually size the intervall accordingly to the graph x-axis size. And in fact that we have a constant 1. grade forumla in the background i don't see any specific reason to go to a lesser detail to just show a graph.
3. true - i just wanted to show the that all rotations end up somewhere at a limit. and usually showing more that just a specific interfall gives usually also better understandig of the wholething
4. Well, sorry but i'm not native speaker and i'll try my best - without spending more than on correction that writing a post.

----------------------------
back to topic:
Here some links again to my "researches"

Rotation Study based on Haste on European Shaman Forum
Graphs that shows various different Rotations - also with with the use CL in different ways
Source file of my calcs

----------------------------
About our spreadsheets:

I think you made some mistakes in your rotation calculations. The kinks in the graphs are actually that way, that you loose DPS at a given time, which should be impossible. I cheched your spreadsheet and probably found the problems.

Flameshock DoT dmg: your formula assume that the DOT never really run out - but fact is: a glpyhed FS has a dot uptome of 18secs and a rotations with 2 LvB has at least a time of 18secs between 2 FS. Here you can take the full DoT dmg into account.
Castime: I think you missed the FS cooldown in it. You only take cell B11 twice into account instead of 3 times

Cooldown waiting sheet:
I don't exactly see is how you choose the point of switching the rotation. The fact that your graph show a loss in DPS means it must be somehow wrong. - IMHO you never loose DPS on any level of haste during a rotaion with 2 LvB and 1 FS. and if you do so while switching, you missed the perfect point.
You compare the DPS of a waiting LB with the DPS of a LB+LvB as far as i understand. But you really should compare the whole rotation dps at this point to make the decission of switching or not

 

• Binkenstein

Lava Burst Cooldown: 8 seconds
2 cooldowns: 16 seconds.
FS dot duration: 18 seconds.

If we start with Flame Shock, we have 18 seconds before the dot runs out, and logically the two lava burst cooldowns would fit into this.
However, it is best to cast the next flame shock before the third lava burst, so the duration of the dot is not actually as long as you think it is.
Ideally, to get the full effect of the flame shock dot, your rotation needs to be 18 seconds plus one global cooldown.
If your rotation is shorter than that, you lose the last flame shock tick, but if it is longer you may lose dps from leaving LvB off cooldown.

I've updated my sheet again to make sure that there is a maximum of 6 flame shock dot ticks, and I'm still seeing the same "bumps".

 

Headspace Cools

That's true in single-mob DPS but for trash pulls and bosses with multiple targets the ideal setup is to repop a FS on a new target right when it cools down, then retarget previous (already FS'd target) and pop out the second Lava.

 

Zomglazerpew

I'm confused is to how I should be reading this. What are the 4/4, 5/4 and etc in the first graph? And also the 3rd graph has some problems with overlapping in the columns (D, O, and S on sheet1).

 

Chant

Just for clarification: that sounds as if we might have to choose between reapplying flame shock before the previous DoT runs out on the one hand and leaving LvB off cooldown on the other. But, as Mitrandir already pointed out, we can get the full effect from FS without having to worry about the LvB cd. With the gcd from the initial FS, plus the casttime for 2 LvBs, the entire rotation easily takes more than 18 seconds.

 

• Binkenstein

Your first point is quite correct.
However, the second point about not worrying about that extra tick is incorrect, as you should be using Flame Shock as part of the LvB-cooldown rotation. As I've said before, when the rotation length is less than 18+ 1 GCD, you will run into dot clipping problems. (without haste, that is 22.2 seconds, max haste 21 seconds)

 

Ghando

Finally got some WOTLK raiding in this weekend, and I was pretty happy with my damage considering I'm still wearing BT and Sunwell gear in most slots. I'm short on hit and that hurt me in a few fights where Flame Shock would miss repeatedly. I found that in practice the "ideal rotation" was changed by the need to move, and whenever I had to move I took the opportunity to refresh Flame Shock (assuming I didn't need to re-plant totems). Does this make the most sense of all the things I could do if I have to take a few steps to re-position?

I'm a Shaman.

 

• Binkenstein

What I've been doing is only casting Flame Shock when the dot runs out, so my rotation is probably less than "ideal", but it makes it easier than counting out bolts in my head.
As for re-applying it when moving, you're doing zero dps when moving. Even if shocks are just off cooldown, throwing it out then is still a dps increase.

 

Phlis

I don't know, I think I'd Earth Shock as long as the Flame Shock Dot has > 6 seconds left on it. The Frontloaded damage of Flameshock is less damage then 3 ticks of the DoT unless it crits. But if the DoT is running low, less then 5 seconds, I'd definately refresh it.

 

Ghando

Yeah, the big question was Earth Shock vs. Flame Shock (since we're talking about a scenario where totems don't need to be refreshed). The six-second rule of thumb is probably best.

As for haste, with ~10% haste (including WoA and gear, not Bloodlust or similar temporary buffs), I was having to wait a half-second in the middle of the rotation for Lava Burst because I didn't want to throw another Lightning Bolt to fill the time and end up throwing my end-of-rotation Lava Burst at the extreme end of Flame Shock (risking a non-crit if I lagged even a tiny bit). It actually felt more comfortable when I swapped out WoA for Windfury, so at least with current gear levels it seems like ~5% total haste is most comfortable. My plan for tonight is to swap out my TBC haste/spellpower gems for pure hit rating. I'll pick up a nice chunk of hit worth far more than the lost spellpower, and drop my haste from gear to 1-2%. Assuming WoA, I anticipate higher overall damage and more comfort with the rotation. You need quite a bit of haste to reliably squeeze in an extra bolt before that middle Lava Burst.

I'm a Shaman.

 

fandros

Spellpower 2600
Crit Chance 45.00%
Spell damage values from Elemental Shaman WotLK Haste Scaling Spreadsheet

This is a very linear result which shows a gain of about 25.9 dps per 1% haste.
I used a smart wait to determine the numbers of LB (x) and (y) (which did not stay constant for this graph). This is done with zero latency. For practical purpose of deciding (x) and (y) should I add say .1 to all cast values?

 

Ghando

Yes, Haste increases damage pretty linearly just like it always has. Not sure why everyone insists on modelling haste up to ridiculous levels like 50%. I'm contending that unless you can get enough Haste to drop your LB cast under 1.6s (squeezing in 5 bolts + lag between Lava Bursts), it's not paying great dividends and you're better served by capping your hit. Otherwise you find yourself either waiting for Lava Burst to cool down, or casting that fifth LB anyway and losing DPS through non-crit Lava Bursts or extra applications of Flame Shock. Obviously, casting some damaging spell is preferable to doing nothing.

I'm a Shaman.

 

• Binkenstein

Can you provide the spreadsheet you used to calculate this?

 

Ravhin

Ballpark ratios
Spent some time on this myself and looked at a couple of rotation options. It turns out that on average:
- 10 spellpower rating -> 13.5-14.5 dps (within 20%-45% crit and 300-600 haste)
- 10 spellhaste rating -> 13-18 dps (within 20%-45% crit and 1200-3000 spellpower)
- 10 spellcrit rating -> 4-5.5 dps (same ranges as above)
The curves are not completely linear but close enough. So stacking haste above spellpower becomes interesting when gear gets you above 1600 spellpower (assuming raid/selfbuff is around 600). Stacking crit is, like in TBC, not very interesting. Considering LvB is 100% crit anyway because of the FS dot, it is just fine to use the crit that happens to be on the gear and leave it at that.

Haste at 450
On all rotations I looked at (incl CL and ES rotations, and both) there is a 'flattening' zone from 450-550 haste due to rotations getting screwed some and where extra haste yields less dps per rating point. It is actually staggered as the other posters have shown above, but bottomline is it turns out to be less effective to keep stacking haste here until you get above 550 again (which seems kinda hard with current top end gear, assuming no trinkets are procced).

Earthshock and rotations
When assuming the ES glyph works as intended, the dmg/casttime or GCDtime ranks: FS-ES-LvB-Cl-LB. However, if the GCD advantage of ES stays at 0.5s even at greater haste, an ES based rotation is not really better then a FS/LvB/CLx/LBy. Using ES and CL makes it about 2% better but is a cumbersome rotation to keep up effectively.
Also, if you suffer just a bit from lag or are a bit slow on the key-release, adding 0.1s (not a strange number at all) already destroys the advantage. With 0.2s added it is actually worse then the other rotations.
On top of this, the CD of the shocks is not nicely fitting into the LvB CD making rotations awkward, the range of ES is limited, ES scales worse then the other spells, and you need to put at least some points in Reverberation that you can use elsewhere (granted there is not an amazing talent left, but still).
Conclusion1: not worth glyphing and using under current circumstances
Conclusion2: FS/LvB/CLx/LBy seems the way to go. It's a couple of % better then simple FS/LvB/LBx

Flameshock ticks
As for FS, of course it pays enormously to let FS tick 6 times. I'd say you can mix it in the LvB/CL/LB rotation whenever the tick runs out, as long as you do it as soon as this happens and ensure there is a dot on when casting LvB
Alternatively you can cast it just before the 3rd LvB but that gives you 5 ticks or cast LvB a little slower. Not completely optimal but easy to remember...

Hope this contributes and confirms some of the work done here....

 

fandros

I don't think anyone is argueing that haste is greater then hit. IF CORRECT this shows that stacking haste at any level still provideds a dps increase.

http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?k...RiIQ0WGLKsLpMw

-I never used google docs before so let me know if I need to change a setting and reupload or just email it.

The tricky part is how to determine your break even wait time (T). A value of (T) where you could cast another LB or wait for LvB and not see any change in your dps. I used LvB Dmg/(cast time + T) = LB dmg/(cast time) and solved for T. Then I could use T to determine if I should wait for LvB or cast another LB.

 

Shastokovich

Given that Clearcasting is up and 1 point in shamanistic focus your shocks costs about 35 mana.

While mana is not usually much of a concern this can come in very handy. combined with the ability to move during the GCD I like to keep it in my rotation.

 

lrdx

This is not the equation what you want to solve. This means, how much can I wait before LvB to have the same DPS as LB, doesn't answer if I should wait now or not.

The real question is, that in this very moment, should I wait for LvB cooldown, or should I fire another LB first and cast LvB after, what is off CD by that time. The breaking point is the following:

• (wait for LvB DPS) = (LB + LvB DPS)
• LvB damage / (LvB cast time + wait time) = (LB damage + LvB damage) / (LB cast time + LvB cast time)

Solving this gives slightly different max wait time. If you substitute LvB to CL, what I did when I discovered this (while calculating for lvl 70 and 3.0), you can see that in some narrow haste ranges, the previous equation actually lovers the DPS.

I'd like to see a next spell suggesting mod, that calculates this number, and if the CD of the spell is lower than this, and (for example) highlight the LvB or LB action button (also, extend to other spells).

 

fandros

This is not correct. My equation was also not correct. I can change the numbers in the sheet and achive higher dps then what my value of T indicates with both yours and my equation. I believe this is due to the fact that we are not looking at damage over the same period of time. The average rotation dps is still less then the (LB damage + LvB damage) / (LB cast time + LvB cast time) and therefore a shorter wait time is better. Reguardless of this my sheet still does not show jumps in dps due to haste value.

 

Ghando

I was thinking about how to get the most out of haste rating, given that it's itemized extensively on mail caster gear and even without gemming for it (I've socketed my yellow slots for hit rating). With current gear you're in a difficult place, where 4 LBs leaves you with <1s on your Lava Burst cooldown and 5 LBs causes you to overshoot your Lava Burst cooldown and at the end of your 18-second Flame Shock cycle you run the risk of losing your debuff before you can fire off your last Lava Burst. So, what if we used Chain Lightning extensively and took advantage of the shorter cooldown (assuming you specced for Storm, Earth and Fire)?

With zero haste:
(First Lava Burst) 0.0
CL 1.5s
LBx2 5.5s
CL 7.0s
LB 9.0s

So we need 1 second worth of haste (slightly more in practice to compensate for latency, let's say 0.1 per cast to a total of 0.5s). We need to shave 1.5s off this 9s sequence, which is 16.67%. Assuming Wrath of Air Totem, we need 11.67% from gear to squeeze in this extra cast (381 haste rating). DPS will scale with haste no matter what, but this seems like a good way to pack the most damage into an 8-second rotation using a reasonable (read: currently plausible) level of haste rating. The only issue (and I'll have to check this when I get home from work) is whether Chain Lightning will be cooled down at the end of the sequence (after one LB and one LvB). With haste it won't quite be there, but latency might let it even out smoothly.

I'm a Shaman.

 

Shkarn

I've been trying to play around with a rotation without overthinking it - just using a mindset of Keep FS up, Keep LvB on cooldown, Keep CL on cooldown, Fill with LB, and while I haven't sat down to math out its effectiveness, I end up doing something like:

FS
LvB
CL
LBx2
CL
LBx1
LvB
CL
LBx2
CL
LBx1
...<something>...
FS
LvB
repeat

I ran into the exact situation Ghando mentioned with deciding between delaying LvB or not and refreshing FS early or not. After trying various fillers for the <something>, I haven't really noticed a dps difference between clipping the FS or filling with something else until it drops off. Granted, I'm still using the T6 bonus, so I'm not sure how it'll change without, but right now it doesn't seem like there's a huge difference between either option.

I'll try to get some more testing in and actually provide some numbers, but taking the queue approach with multiple CLs per cycle seems like the most "fluid rotation".

 

Mitrandir

Ghando, Shkarn

I'm not shure if i can follow your thoughts but let me state 2 things:

1. you can NOT reduce cooldown times by haste-. the 8 seconds of LavaBurst are given. Min Castime of LavaBurst is 1 sec. This means, that you impossibly can put 3 Lava Burst into a FS DoT uptime

2. Check my spreadsheets and graphs in the second post here: i made dps grpahs based on haste for rotations with the try of keeping CL on its cooldown. the result was, that this works only on a very low haste level. As soon as you have little more haste, the cooldowns block each other and even when you put in more spells and stuff, you are not on the highest possible DPS level.

Rotations with 1 CL in each LavaBurst cooldown and rest filled with LB are the best and most practicable rotations to go.
Also keep in mind that you hardly can keep up such a complex rotation that trys keeping up all cooldowns

 

Ghando

It's not really that complicated, you're just substituting CL for LB every time you have the option to do so. You're correct that you can run up against the CL cooldown in the second Lava Burst cycle with haste (LB + LvB = 3.5s with no haste). You'll be short of your CL cooldown by about a half-second with 15% haste. However, you can just use a LB after the second LvB, then a CL, and catch up on that cooldown when you refresh your Flame Shock slightly later. It ends up looking like this for a full cycle:
FS
LvB
CL
LBx2
CL
LB
LvB
LB
CL
LBx2
FS (start of next cycle)

This looks complicated, but you're really just hitting whatever's not on cooldown at that moment. It doesn't require any memorization.

I'm a Shaman.

 

Shkarn

This is what I love about it - you don't have to think about it. You already know your priority of importance (FS > LvB > CL > LB). From there, it's just a matter of keeping everything on cooldown as much as you can and fill with LB. You don't have to count anything - just keep an eye on your cooldown timers.

With the upcoming changes, this could very well change - CL might not be worth including in the rotation anymore - but that would only make this extremely simple. I personally prefer having this priority/queue mindset about our "rotation" than having to count the number of casts I make.

 

Mitrandir

Yes, just keep an eye on your cooldowns - you do nothing else then!
and as i said: look at my graphs - i sketched up such a rotation and its not worth doing it, because you hit too many cooldowns at higher hastelevel and because of that, too many delays on other spells in a way that you better do the rotation with just 1 CL