Ezareth

He did use a Wild Magic Potion which helped a little, and I'm sure with the best gear + perfectly formed raid his crit level is possible....although on the rare side.

I was having much the same problem until I made it my priority to focus on Lava Burst and getting it off every time it was up and not fitting another lightning bolt inbetween while it was on cooldown. The 4 piece bonus helped as well.

Amazingly his lightning overload procs were much lower than they should have been and helped balance his high crit rate...and also helps account for an abnormally high damage on average casts considring the rest of us would be dragged down a bit by a higher LO proc rate.

 

Flau

LO takes about 6% of elementalshamans dps.. if its 13% instead of 20% it'll lower his dps by almost 2,1%...
But his critrating lifts up his dps by ~13,75%. He did 11% more dps through crits than the average.

In short fights like patchwerk with high dps its likely to create such fluctuations concerning the critvalue... but I almost never managed.

 

Daowna

First post here,

Perhaps I've missed someone else bring this up but I have found little if at all discussion about Thunderstorm. I find myself in a raid group without a Shadow Priest often so I have pretty much solidified this ability in my rotation to keep receiving 8% of my mana every 45 sec and rarely dipping below 50% mana.

The only hindrance for using this ability is staying within the thunderstorm radius so that the boss is damaged when I use it. Obviously you can't always be within 14.4 yards (2/2 elemental reach) of the boss but I try to be when it is possible. Also your not really losing any DPS if you use this ability since it does 1533-1739 base nature damage and is an instant cast, but I guess you take away your lightning overload chance using thunderstorm in place of a CL/LiB.

I haven't used a mana pot since I added this into my rotation which is prioritized like this:

LvB>TS>CL>LiB

FS can vary but it's usually right before the LvB cooldown is up on every 3rd LvB.

Anyways, let me know what you guys think.

 

Agash

Personally I don't 'solidify' it into any rotation - some fights I need it, some fights I don't. However, I would say that if you are not dropping below 50% mana you are using it too much and would do more damage by dropping it out and would not have to stand so close to the target. The difference in damage between a LB and TS will become more pronounced with the upcoming changes so you will feel it even more then. Also, it strikes me as odd that you use it straight after LvB which means that you waste one of your clearcasts on a spell that costs no mana (I am assuming here that it consumes a charge though I have never tested it).

Finally, as FS is our highest DPSC spells after LvB, I would reapply it as soon as it wears off rather than waiting until your 3rd LvB is nearly ready to go.

 

LITTLER0TT

It does not consume Clearcasting charges. But there is no real reason to use it unless you are really having mana issues. I'd look at your armory but its not working.

This has been brought up earlier but I can't seem to find a good answer

Should I be including chain lightning in my rotations? I've tested over and over with using and not using chain lightning. Every single test I've used Chain Lightning my dps is considerably lower. About 300 dps ish (depending if I'm on Live or PTR). I've looked at quite a few WWS reports and I've always seen Chain Lightning 300 or so damage lower then Lightning Bolt.

Also it kinda eats my mana pretty quick, which is a pain.

 

Ghando

Yes, use Chain Lightning. I don't understand how it could be mathematically possible for your DPS to be lower with Chain Lightning considering it does more damage at present than a Lightning Bolt with considerably less cast time. You should be using it pretty much every time it's available. As for CL being 300ish damage less than Lightning Bolt, my guess is that you're looking at CL in parses where it's hitting multiple targets.

Wow Web Stats This is for a full night of raiding. Chain Lightning's average noncrit damage shows as about 300 less than Lightning Bolt because it includes a lot of trash and adds that got hit with CL bounces. This will skew Chain Lightning's average hit value downwards although the spell is actually doing more damage.

Wow Web Stats This is for Patchwerk on that same night. Note than Chain Lightning, which is hitting only one target per cast, has an average hit about 300 MORE than Lightning Bolt.

Anyway, Chain Lightning is good. With ~2000 spellpower on PTR my CL and LB hit for about the same. With some upgrades and a flask LB will hit a bit harder, but given the 0.5s difference in cast time Chain Lightning will remain higher DPSC for the foreseeable future. Also, the 0.5s saved gives you more flexibility in your rotation.

I'm a Shaman.

 

Daowna

Thank you for the feedback on my first post above. I would be more conservative on using thunderstorm when I don't have to except I really haven't found a good reason why I shouldn't use thunderstorm. Like I originally stated, it's not hurting my DPS as long as I'm in range(might even be a slight increase in DPS) and when I'm not in range obviously then I can lighten up using thunderstorm.

Also, someone asked about my gear which raises another point for using thunderstorm. Obviously mp5 is in some of our gear and even in some of our Tier-Set pieces. However, I for one try to stay away from mp5 gear when I can use gear with more DPS stats/attributes (crit, haste, hit) and having thunderstorm in my rotation allows me to do this. Also, I know most elemental shaman have mana issues while using CL constantly however with thunderstom in the rotation it makes it possible for most elemental shaman to use CL consistently.

Idk, maybe I'm missing something but I would go as far to say as all elemental shaman should consider using TS and trying to range themselves for boss fights to use it.

 

LITTLER0TT

Alright so I just ran over to Stormwind (Non-Boss target dummy with no mobs near it) And it looks like I was kinda wrong and kinda right. But more wrong then right.

Dpsing the dummies I got roughly the same dps using a Chain lightning rotation and a Non-Chain lightning rotation. The Chain lightning rotations were considerably shorter (mana of course).

The Rotation i seem to be getting is something like(haste is kind of messing it up)

Flame Shock/ Lava burst/ Chain lightning/ Lightning Bolt x2/ Chain Lightning / Lightning Bolt/ Lava burst/ Chain Lightning

And then it kind of restarts and changes depending on cooldown after that.

My non-Chain Lightning rotation

Flame Shock/ Lava burst/ Lightning Bolt x5 / Lava burst/ Lightning Bolt x 3/ Flame Shock/ Lightning Bolt/ Lava burst


Now I'm either horribly mangling the Chain Lightning rotation (which is quite possible) or something else. But i think its an awful lot of work to do the Chain Lightning rotation when it does similar and more often then not less damage.


Also( i love the enter button..sorry :-/) In 25 mans I lag horribly badly. I mean Fps lag and Server lag (wtb new computer)

 

Mmootimus

Without meaning to be nasty, asking whether to use CL in your rotation isn't a question I feel these forums are for. It is really an absolute no-brainer from a TC standpoint.

There was an issue back in TBC around CL causing additional latency when used in a rotation, compared to pure LB spam. However I have no idea if that was taken to a conclusion or if it would apply now. My guess is this is more likely a rotation issue, in which case putting some WWS logs up in the new thread Bink started would probably get you some help.

 

Agash

I think you are maybe missing one of the major points of using the CL in your rotation and that is to reduce the times between LvBs to a minimum. What you have tried to do is either cram in as many as you can or leave them out entirely - neither situation is ideal except at very specific haste ratings. I don't know your haste rating so I can't give definate answers but:

Your first rotation has 9 secs (unhasted) between LvBs but only 3.5 secs between the 2nd and 3rd CL. This would seem to indicate you are either losing cast time between the CLs or could get the 2nd LvB off more quickly. Either way, it is not the best way to maximise your DPS. However, you did say it was 'something like this' so it might be that in practice you are doing ok.

More importantly, your second rotation has 10 secs (unhasted) between the 1st and 2nd LvB but 9.5 secs between the 2nd and 3rd. If your haste is such that you get 9.5 secs of casting (unhasted) between LvBs then you would increase your DPS by changing one of your LBs between your 1st and second LvB to a CL - giving 9.5 sec cast time too and getting your LvB off 0.5 secs sooner. Even if your DPS from LB and CL were the same, this would give a higher DPS rotation. This would give a rotation like:

Flame Shock/ Lava burst/ Chain Lightning / Lightning Bolt x4 / Lava burst/ Lightning Bolt x 4/ Flame Shock/ Lava burst

0.5 secs might not sound alot but it means in a fight you will fire off over 5% more of your highest DPS spell.

To cut a long story short, the 3 rotation 'segments' you have given have either 9 sec, 9.5 sec or 10 sec between the LvBs (all unhasted) - 2 of these are not using your spells as efficiently as you might. Only you can tell which by calculating your cast times including haste.

[e] incidently fitting 5 LBs in requires 25% haste (incl. buffs) + zero latency loss. Taking into account latency, you are unlikely to make it efficient until you hit 30% haste. Assuming you haven't got that (which is probably a safe bet) the above rotation will increase your DPS.

 

LITTLER0TT

I know why you're supposed to cast Chain Lightning, I'm not stupid though it may seem so from your perspective.

My rotation is using Lava burst as soon as its off cooldown, and unless i cast an additional Lightning bolt by accident, the end of my last Lightning Bolt is usually pretty close to my lava burst (at least from what I can see, I'm not perfect sadly)

not sure what to say after that.....

 

Ghando

You have almost exactly the same haste rating as me, yet I find almost no trouble keeping a crisp rotation going using CL almost every time it's off cooldown. Rather than parsing out exactly what your rotation should be over X seconds, always keep an eye on your Lava Burst cooldown and figure out 1-2 casts ahead of time how you should budget out your casts to keep things as crisp as possible.

I'm a Shaman.

 

Agash

You have 410 haste rating = 12.5% haste. Raid buffed this gives 20.5% haste. Your 5 lightning bolts will therefore take 8.3 secs to cast assuming zero latency and perfect chain casting. If we assume a normal latency loss of around 0.15s per cast, this will be taking 8.9 secs to cast. I cannot see how the end of your last LB can be 'pretty close' to your LvB coming off CD especially when you say your lag is bad which would only make things worse.

 

LITTLER0TT

I'm speaking of the recent lag, as in 3 seconds to cast an instant cast while doing Malygos Phase 2 (2 days ago). And then fps lag is a whole other monster entirely. (5-10 fps through out most 25 mans..)

I suppose I could be seeing my Lava burst coming off Global Cooldown. (I use Dominos, which is a bit buggy, sometimes Global Cooldowns cut off the last bit of some Spell cooldowns)

I attempt to do that but I've always shied away from Chain Lightning while doing it, I'll try to go against my Anti-Chain-Lightning ways and see how that turns out. I tend to forget to reapply Flame shock if I'm paying more attention to Chain Lightnings Cooldown, which I also have to work on.

 

doogless

I have the same problem with my computer being terrible. I was doing 25 man Naxx today and noticed that 5 LBs would line up to just when my LvB would come off cooldown, and then in a heroic later (without the 3% haste from raid buffs) I noticed that that same pattern left me just a little bit of time before I could LvB again. In looking at it now, I can see that raid buffs, 5 LBs should take me 8.5 seconds, whereas in practice they were taking me 9.5 seconds due to connection latency and a crappy computer on my end.

It seems kinda of weird that probably the number one thing I could do to improve my DPS would be to get a new video card/CPU.

 

Phatpharm

I started out using CL every CD, like Ghando, to start with. Although my haste has changed quite a bit while gearing up, leading to different rotations, and can lead to massive mana issues depending on the situation/gear.

I am, however, finding an issue like tBC where the server is way more likely to "reject" a non-LB cast. The cast queue works way better with one spell. Pre-WotLK I found spamming 1.2s LBs during hero that my CL would be rejected frequently leading to less dps than pure spam. Therefore I am trying to focus on getting the most spam between my LvB, this is really key when you have haste procs as well. Way easier to be watching the FS dot, and LvB CD with pure LB as filler, and when we are patched it will be more important yet.

I am concerned with the fact that two more spells are in the rotation now. Trying to cast FS within the latency period almost always doesn't work. Making a quick movement to clear queue then hitting FS seems to work better. Slipping in the LvB seems akin to slipping in the old CL. Anyone else been playing with the rotation as it pertains to the server side ?

 

LITTLER0TT

I've found on live casting 1 Chain between LvB seems to net me more damage. Sometimes any way. Sometimes they are still about even, though I think on a very long fight (which at the moment there are none) it will net me a good bit of damage.

If we run into a fight such as Brut, where the fight will almost always last 5 minutes, then this change in my rotation will be very nice.

As far as Latency/bad computer goes. Yea it feels much quicker to just spam Lightning bolt between. My computer is so terribly laggy that I feel the same way. Getting a new computer would net me a bigger damage increase then anything else i can possibly do in game. bah.

 

Ghando

Agreed, Phatfarm, if you're switching between several different spells the server seems more likely to "reject" a cast and you can stumble on your rotations a little. Stilll, from a TC standpoint using CL remains a no-brainer and you really should be using it twice per LvB cycle.

I'm a Shaman.

 

Chaostheoryx

Are you attempting to time your button presses using the Quartz latency indicator?

I just hold down the button until I see the ability trigger then switch to the next button until the next ability triggers. You always have at least a second to switch to the next button during GCD.

 

Phatpharm

Agreed. I was using a FS LvB CL LB LB LB CL LvB rotation when I first started raiding Naxx and the DPS is far superior to spam, the mana usage is astronomical though.

After 3.0 broke Quartz I moved on to AzCastbar, so yes that is what I am referring to. (latency period in cast)

I am glad you brought up holding the button. I have noticed this can avoid having a spell rejected as well, it is the point of release that "engages" the cast. I still feel like I am losing more time to latency than ever before (server-side), and is not helping the DPS concerns we are facing.

Maybe I should go back to quartz and see if there is any improvement. Any specific changes to the stock mod ?

 

Chaostheoryx

Do yourself a huge favor and either get a keyboard with macro functionality (like the Logitech G15 or similar) or download AutoHotkey.net.

All of my important keys, FS, LvB, LB, CL, are set to auto-repeat every 10ms while held. You just hold down the key for the next ability in your sequence and it will go through as soon as possible. Once you see that it's triggered you can move to the next key and hold. This removes the need to time anything.

 

Laupen

I'd just like to point out to those who do not know: Autohotkey and G15 macroing to have a button repeat when held are against the Blizz Eula and you risk a ban by using them.

That said, if you want to protect your fingers from RSI, I hear they work pretty well

 

Flau

Isn't there a queue for all spells you tried to cast while already casting, so you automatically cast the next spell as soon as possible?
I thought this has been implementated far before 3.0...
Before that system you needed addon's like Quartz to maximize your dps.., there is no need for g15-macros.. i'm currently playing without g15, and nearly without addons and I'm doing "nice" dps without dps lags caused by serverlags etc...
My 4 mainspells are keybinded on my mousewheele ( scroll up/down & shift+scroll up/down ) so you can manage nearly perfect timing by rotating your mousewheele.

 

Ghando

I'm not sure it's really helpful/legitimate discussion to talk about how you have your keys bound or what G15 macros you use or how the lag is on your server. Serious lag and issues like the casting queue not firing off your next spell when it should can't really be accounted for in theorycrafting and honestly it's not that big a deal on most servers. Lag is a reality of online gaming and you can account for normal casting latency when planning out rotations, but "I have 3-4 seconds of delay on my casts I'll base my theorycrafting around that" isn't really helpful.

I'm a Shaman.

 

Chaostheoryx

"Isn't there a queue for all spells you tried to cast while already casting, so you automatically cast the next spell as soon as possible?
I thought this has been implementated far before 3.0... "

No, there's no queue. See: World of Warcraft - English (NA) Forums -> UI Suggestions - Concise List
"These ideas have been explicitly declined by the developers--Spell Queuing. "

To each his own I suppose. But the fact that the mousewheel can send multiple commands with one motion makes all the quibbling by Blizzard over "one key down/up event" seem even more absurd. Of course, if Blizz ever (it's hard to type something so silly) warns a G15 user, he could say he's using his mousewheel.

Hi Ghando. Our discussion of PhatPharm's issues may be more fitting for the "WWS and Gearing Help" thread if a mod would care to move it.