I suppose that is a good reason for my lack of dps
so technically CL has dropped to the status of filler? (on boss fights anyways) From what i read it's only needed to fill .5-1 second before LvB.
BTW does anyone have any numbers that can compare our average dps to all other casters. i remember pre-patch we were around 30% less than druids and 50% of warlocks or something in that ballpark. Wondering where we match up now and i haven't found anything yet.
If you do it right you're the cream of the crop in terms of dps right now. I did 5650 dps last Patch, and I can still push it a little more, if I get a new computer. Trying to get max dps with 5-10 fps most of the time is a royal pain in the arse.
And there is also room to tighten up my rotation even more and get it perfect for fights like Patch.
As far as other classes go, fury warriors, hunters, warlock and mages should be able to do equal dps to you, but all this is very situational when you factor in gear, overall raid dps (It has a huge effect on recount and some classes do more dps on short fights ect) and the player skill.
I saw this a while back, don't know if this is an updated one or not but i was wondering if anyone has anything along these lines
And the weirdest thing is when i was doing around 3k DPS i was at the target dummy trying to make it better. And i had a consistant rotation of LB - LB - CL - Shock - LvB which made everything fit really tight together but i was throwing earthshock in when i didn't need to flameshock. and i was consistantly getting better dps than a priority rotation. the priority could be better with a range of like 2.7-3.2k DPS but the rotation was always 3-3.1k and i was just confused how earthshock in a rotation was competing. i haven't tried that since then because i was hearing it shouldn't work so i just assumed. so i'm going to try fine tuning a rotation for the gear i got today but i'll try shocking more and see what happens
I saw this a while back, don't know if this is an updated one or not but i was wondering if anyone has anything along these lines
And the weirdest thing is when i was doing around 3k DPS i was at the target dummy trying to make it better. And i had a consistant rotation of LB - LB - CL - Shock - LvB which made everything fit really tight together but i was throwing earthshock in when i didn't need to flameshock. and i was consistantly getting better dps than a priority rotation. the priority could be better with a range of like 2.7-3.2k DPS but the rotation was always 3-3.1k and i was just confused how earthshock in a rotation was competing. i haven't tried that since then because i was hearing it shouldn't work so i just assumed. so i'm going to try fine tuning a rotation for the gear i got today but i'll try shocking more and see what happens
Earthshock has the same "casttime" as Chain Lightning in the sense of a GCD and it can't touch CL in terms of damage.
Your 100% optimal DPS rotation would be a rotation in which you cast Lava Burst every 9-9.5 seconds and fit only lightning bolts in between everything else.
However, we have to cast flame shock which is a 1.5 second cast. Flameshock is generally going to be cast every other lava burst so ultimately because we can never remove flame shock from our rotations a Haste rating that allows Chain Lightning to alternate Lava Burst rotations with flame shock and fit the lava burst cooldown perfectly would be your desired haste level and optimal rotation.
However, we have to cast flame shock which is a 1.5 second cast. Flameshock is generally going to be cast every other lava burst so ultimately because we can never remove flame shock from our rotations a Haste rating that allows Chain Lightning to alternate Lava Burst rotations with flame shock and fit the lava burst cooldown perfectly would be your desired haste level and optimal rotation.
This is exactly what I've established as my rotation--obviously subject to change with my haste rating, though I foresee that being relatively stable until the next tier of gear in Ulduar. For a full 18-second rotation: FS, LvB, LB, CL, LBx3, LvB, LBx4. Followed immediately by another FS + LvB, so FS takes the place of CL in the second half of the rotation. The reasoning for the LvB, LB, CL, LBx3 sequence (splitting up the LBs rather than using CL at the start) is to guarantee that the first nuke after Lava Burst benefits from Clearcasting. Given the travel time of the Lava Burst projectile, you'll often screw yourself out of a Clearcasting'ed spell using CL immediately (because you'll finish casting the CL before the Lava Burst impacts).
This is exactly what I've established as my rotation--obviously subject to change with my haste rating, though I foresee that being relatively stable until the next tier of gear in Ulduar. For a full 18-second rotation: FS, LvB, LB, CL, LBx3, LvB, LBx4. Followed immediately by another FS + LvB, so FS takes the place of CL in the second half of the rotation. The reasoning for the LvB, LB, CL, LBx3 sequence (splitting up the LBs rather than using CL at the start) is to guarantee that the first nuke after Lava Burst benefits from Clearcasting. Given the travel time of the Lava Burst projectile, you'll often screw yourself out of a Clearcasting'ed spell using CL immediately (because you'll finish casting the CL before the Lava Burst impacts).
True but then you are guaranteed that the 2 spells after CL(Lightning Bolts) will benefit and since single target Lightning Bolt has more damage than Chain Lightning, wouldn't that be preferable?
The real issue would be that Chain Lightning would suck up a clear casting charge that would have been applied to lava burst so by that reasoning it makes sense to chain lightning after a LB placed after the Lava Burst.
I'm not sure I understand exactly what you're saying, but are you suggesting you wouldn't want to cast Chain Lightning immediately after a Lava Burst because it might land after the CL and you might lose an existing Clearcasting charge? If so this is incorrect, because the damage bonus from Clearcasting is applied when the spell is cast (and the charge is consumed) rather than when it lands much the same way Lava Burst's guaranteed crit is decided when the spell is cast.
I hadn't really thought about making sure the guaranteed pair of Clearcasting charges from Lava Burst were used most efficiently. With that in mind it makes the most sense to make the first cycle FS, LvB, LBx2, CL, LBx2. A Clearcasting charge results in more bonus damage on an LB than a CL. Is there some important point of theorycrafting I'm missing here?
I'm not sure I understand exactly what you're saying, but are you suggesting you wouldn't want to cast Chain Lightning immediately after a Lava Burst because it might land after the CL and you might lose an existing Clearcasting charge? If so this is incorrect, because the damage bonus from Clearcasting is applied when the spell is cast (and the charge is consumed) rather than when it lands much the same way Lava Burst's guaranteed crit is decided when the spell is cast.
I hadn't really thought about making sure the guaranteed pair of Clearcasting charges from Lava Burst were used most efficiently. With that in mind it makes the most sense to make the first cycle FS, LvB, LBx2, CL, LBx2. A Clearcasting charge results in more bonus damage on an LB than a CL. Is there some important point of theorycrafting I'm missing here?
Ahh yeah I never bothered to test when the Clearcasting damage bonus was applied, but yeah Def want to LBX2 after Lava Burst if at all possible although this is not true of flame shock since you want the flameshock dot to have clearcasting even more than you'd want LB to get it.
You absolutely do not gain DPS from cast sequence macros.
I also can't see how it would be possible to "manage hero/haste trinket procs" without having a new sequence for each haste rating :S Just have a CD timer which watches FlS dot on target and LvB CD and you're sorted.
I hadn't really thought about making sure the guaranteed pair of Clearcasting charges from Lava Burst were used most efficiently. With that in mind it makes the most sense to make the first cycle FS, LvB, LBx2, CL, LBx2. A Clearcasting charge results in more bonus damage on an LB than a CL. Is there some important point of theorycrafting I'm missing here?
It's essentially the same thing, if you do FS, LvB, CL, LBx4, LvB, LBx4, the CL won't use a clearcasting charge because of cast vs. travel time. If anything it may be better to do the CL first, because then if you get any CL/LB crits all the clearcasted spells are Lightning Bolts(and/or a LvB) rather then getting a clearcasted CL mixed up in there. Which is more damage in the end.
It's probably pretty close to a wash, but I don't agree with your assertion (if I'm understanding you) that it might be desirable to let CL skip a Clearcasting charge and "save" those charges for LBs down the line. CC'd CL is less raw bonus damage than CC'd LB, but it's not like you have a finite number of charges to work with during the fight and ideally you'd want EVERY spell you cast to benefit from Clearcasting. Especially since CL has the same crit rate as LB (very high) it's likely to pay for itself. You absolutely don't want a situation where you might cast a non-CC'd CL.
I think it definitely makes sense to move CL back in the rotation to ensure that every single cast has a chance to benefit from Clearcasting. Also that it's affected by Elemental Oath, though that will rarely be an issue during a fight. It would only matter at the very start of a fight.
Ahh yeah I never bothered to test when the Clearcasting damage bonus was applied, but yeah Def want to LBX2 after Lava Burst if at all possible although this is not true of flame shock since you want the flameshock dot to have clearcasting even more than you'd want LB to get it.
Whilst clearly there are situations where you want to squeeze every last bit of DPS out of your rotation, let's keep this in perspective. We are talking about a 10% damage increase to your lowest damage spell in a 20 sec rotation compared to a 10% damage increase to your second lowest damage spell which would get the 10% damage increase 70% of the time anyway.
This works out at about a 0.05% overall DPS increase at a cost of a 2% increase in overall mana consumption. Obviously, it is up to the individual to determine whether they deem this worthwhile in some, none, or all fights.
I think it definitely makes sense to move CL back in the rotation to ensure that every single cast has a chance to benefit from Clearcasting. Also that it's affected by Elemental Oath, though that will rarely be an issue during a fight. It would only matter at the very start of a fight.
Yep.
So far of what I've seen, the max damage output theoretical cycle would be:
FS LB*2 LvB LB*4 CL LvB LB*2 (if it fits your haste rating obviously)
This way, you increase your percentage of LvB and LB casted with clearcasting buffs which are our 2 most damaging spells (and lose some percentages on CL obviously).
However, delaying the first LvB on a fight might cause that you will cast one less LvB on the whole fight if you're not lucky, so maybe not worth it.
I think:
FS LvB LB*4 CL LvB LB*4
would be a good alternative (if you forget irrevelant mana problems).
You will always use the clearcasting charges from your 100% crit lavaburts on lightning bolts.
Yep.
So far of what I've seen, the max damage output theoretical cycle would be:
FS LB*2 LvB LB*4 CL LvB LB*2 (if it fits your haste rating obviously)
This way, you increase your percentage of LvB and LB casted with clearcasting buffs which are our 2 most damaging spells (and lose some percentages on CL obviously).
However, delaying the first LvB on a fight might cause that you will cast one less LvB on the whole fight if you're not lucky, so maybe not worth it.
I think:
FS LvB LB*4 CL LvB LB*4
would be a good alternative (if you forget irrevelant mana problems).
You will always use the clearcasting charges from your 100% crit lavaburts on lightning bolts.
Your opening spell should always be FS Followed by LvB. Then you have 4 LBs and a CL followed by LvB.
After this it is fine to try and work in 2 lightning bolts before the LvB to maximize CC effectiveness but the rotation will change with blood lust again and it could serve as a distraction changing up your rotation.
I was trying to "overmanage" my patchwerk rotation last night where last week I just used a set rotation without trying to worry about maximizing CC DPS, and I ended with 5040 DPS last night, where the week before I had 5640 with the same gear.
I think the only real thing people should focus on to maximize DPS is keeping your lava burst rotation as tight as possible and ensuring flame shock is up when you Lava Burst. Everything beyond that is minor, and if it interferes with that it isn't worth trying.
I did try to use Potion of Speed during Bloodlust instead of by itself this time and even though the math is on the side of using it with lust, I wonder if some latency takes away from that and it is better by itself regardless.
I did try to use Potion of Speed during Bloodlust instead of by itself this time and even though the math is on the side of using it with lust, I wonder if some latency takes away from that and it is better by itself regardless.
I did some re-gemming last night before my Naxx run, added some haste which brought me very close to 600 haste rating.
This plus WoA and Imp Moonkin Aura and Heroism my CL / LvB spells were well below the hard-cap for the GCD.
Was a glance during Heroism that I noticed the tool-tip saying 0.910 or .0901 was real fast and was trying to keep my rotation tight and not get distracted, but it lead me to think that I should re-itemize some and favor hit over haste in gear choices, and gem exclusively for SP.
(Reason I bring this up is because of the Haste pot debate) Would this not push even your LB beyond the 1s hard-cap, where it truly is diminishing returns ?
Yep.
So far of what I've seen, the max damage output theoretical cycle would be:
FS LB*2 LvB LB*4 CL LvB LB*2 (if it fits your haste rating obviously)
This way, you increase your percentage of LvB and LB casted with clearcasting buffs which are our 2 most damaging spells (and lose some percentages on CL obviously).
However, delaying the first LvB on a fight might cause that you will cast one less LvB on the whole fight if you're not lucky, so maybe not worth it.
I think:
FS LvB LB*4 CL LvB LB*4
would be a good alternative (if you forget irrevelant mana problems).
You will always use the clearcasting charges from your 100% crit lavaburts on lightning bolts.
This has already been discused a few posts back.
The best rotation to maximize the effect of CC is to start with FS - LvB - 2xLB - CL - 2xLB - LvB - 2xLB - |:FS - 2xLB -LvB - 2xLB - CL - 2xLB - LvB - 2xLB:|
You'll get a bit more dmg from your LvB and LB and loose a tick from FS.
But overall it will be less than a 0.5% increase in theory. Probably less in a raid situation.
And this will only be the case untill you get enough haste that 5xLB + lag = ~8sec
The best rotation to maximize the effect of CC is to start with FS - LvB - 2xLB - CL - 2xLB - LvB - 2xLB - |:FS - 2xLB -LvB - 2xLB - CL - 2xLB - LvB - 2xLB:|
You'll get a bit more dmg from your LvB and LB and loose a tick from FS.
But overall it will be less than a 0.5% increase in theory. Probably less in a raid situation.
And this will only be the case untill you get enough haste that 5xLB + lag = ~8sec
It's a lot less than 0.5% - more like a 0.03% increase in DPS.
Basically, is we assume average hits as follows (taken from SEIC with 50% crit):
Chain Lightning : 5163
Lightning Bolt : 6532
Then we say that the first 2 spells after LvB get 100% CC and the 3rd gets 75% CC, we can compare the damage as follows:
So this is a 34 damage increase. If we assume 5000 DPS and a 20 sec rotation, then 34 / (5000 x 20) = 0.03%.
For the increase in LvB damage, which would have had CC up 72.5% after LB - FS and 75% after 2LB, and assuming an average LvB hit of 11000, the difference in damage is 11000 x 0.1 x 0.025 / 2 = 14 damage per LvB (as it only improves 1 LvB out of 2) balanced against a 800 damage loss from clipping the FS DoT.
So if we assume a 3 minute fight in which 18 LvBs are cast, the total damage increase is 18 x 14 - 800 = -548 damage loss.
So, clipping the FS DoT to shift the rotation is a DPS loss.
So this is a 34 damage increase. If we assume 5000 DPS and a 20 sec rotation, then 34 / (5000 x 20) = 0.03%.
For the increase in LvB damage, which would have had CC up 72.5% after LB - FS and 75% after 2LB, and assuming an average LvB hit of 11000, the difference in damage is 11000 x 0.1 x 0.025 / 2 = 14 damage per LvB (as it only improves 1 LvB out of 2) balanced against a 800 damage loss from clipping the FS DoT.
So if we assume a 3 minute fight in which 18 LvBs are cast, the total damage increase is 18 x 14 - 800 = -548 damage loss.
So, clipping the FS DoT to shift the rotation is a DPS loss.
[e] corrected due to silly maths errors
I agree that it's better to stick with the old rotation.
But you are still forgetting a few things in your calculations.
First of the crit chance for LB isn't 55% assuming 50% crit on FS. It's 59.95% due to LO also crtting and thus proccing CC. The same is the case with CL though it has a smaller chance to procc LO.
Also you are gaining a bit CC uptime on LB but loosing alot on CL.
This means that the dmg loss is actually only about 319 not 548 using the values you posted.
But +-500 dmg over a 3 minute fight doesnt have any significance and the new rotation is alot harder to maintain and have a chunky transition going into and out of BL.
It's not really a big deal to clip the Flame Shock DOT. It's such a trivial part of our damage, if re-applying Flame Shock while you're moving or whatever makes the rest of your rotation smoother then by all means do it. As an example, I re-apply Flame Shock every single time I come out of Malygos's vortex no matter how much time the DOT has left on it. I can follow it immediately with a Lava Burst and resume my full rotation as though the fight just started.
It's not really a big deal to clip the Flame Shock DOT. It's such a trivial part of our damage, if re-applying Flame Shock while you're moving or whatever makes the rest of your rotation smoother then by all means do it. As an example, I re-apply Flame Shock every single time I come out of Malygos's vortex no matter how much time the DOT has left on it. I can follow it immediately with a Lava Burst and resume my full rotation as though the fight just started.
As do I - but in that situation, you are refreshing and getting the initial damage without losing cast time on another spell as you are moving. What was demonstrated that it is not worth it to clip the dot to get an extra 10% damage on about 1.25% of your Lava Bursts. If clipping the DoT is trivial then the added LvB damage is many times more trivial.
I keep reading posts about ele's complaining that they're "clipping" they're FS. When I'm dpsing, I'm currently doing a rotation like this:
FS-LvB-Filler-LvB-Filler Until LvB is within 2s or so of coming up then repeat.
Should I be rolling my FS ticks or am I missing something here? I don't see how you could possibly "clip" a FS unless you were intentionally rolling them. Am I wrong in assuming you always want to be able to LvB immediately after you FS?
I'm trying to understand how people "clip" FS. Maybe I'm really misunderstanding the rotation. I essentially only FS right before every other LvB... which usually means the dot has fallen off long before I get to the end of my rotation due to me waiting to FS when LvB is almost up. Hopefully someone can shed some light into this.
I keep reading posts about ele's complaining that they're "clipping" they're FS. When I'm dpsing, I'm currently doing a rotation like this:
FS-LvB-Filler-LvB-Filler Until LvB is within 2s or so of coming up then repeat.
Should I be rolling my FS ticks or am I missing something here? I don't see how you could possibly "clip" a FS unless you were intentionally rolling them. Am I wrong in assuming you always want to be able to LvB immediately after you FS?
I'm trying to understand how people "clip" FS. Maybe I'm really misunderstanding the rotation. I essentially only FS right before every other LvB... which usually means the dot has fallen off long before I get to the end of my rotation due to me waiting to FS when LvB is almost up. Hopefully someone can shed some light into this.
It was suggested that you could move FS (except the first) two spells back to maximize dmg on your LvB. But the dmg gain wouldnt be significant enough to warrant a change in rotation, thus sticking with the former rotation, the one you are using, is still the best choice.
If Threat >= 90% then Wind Shock
Else If no FSDot And no FScooldown Then FS
Else If no Totemsdown Then Drop Totems
Else If Heroism And No EMCooldown Then Elemental Mastery
Else If Exhaustion And No EMCooldown Then Elemental Mastery
Else If FSDot And no LvBCooldown Then LvB
Else If LvBCooldown < (LB Casttime minus ~0.3s) Then CL
Else Lightning Bolt
If this made sense to anyone, is there a flaw in my mental logic?
If Threat >= 90% then Wind Shock
Else If no FSDot And no FScooldown Then FS
Else If no Totemsdown Then Drop Totems
Else If Heroism And No EMCooldown Then Elemental Mastery
Else If Exhaustion And No EMCooldown Then Elemental Mastery
Else If FSDot And no LvBCooldown Then LvB
Else If LvBCooldown < (LB Casttime minus ~0.3s) Then CL
Else Lightning Bolt
If this made sense to anyone, is there a flaw in my mental logic?
Considering we are at range and the static reduction of threat from windshock is next to nothing, at very least this shouldbe if thread >= 110% or something. Against any tank-specced tank aggro is impossible for us to pull short of the addition of a threat-dropping boss/encounter.
Lava Burst check should come before totems or anything else. I usually drop totems during my first cooldown of lava burst on mobile fights like sartharion etc where you have to drop totems after moving into position.
The Logic on the CL would fail during bloodlust since during bloodlust you'd want zero chain lightnings.
Considering we are at range and the static reduction of threat from windshock is next to nothing, at very least this shouldbe if thread >= 110% or something. Against any tank-specced tank aggro is impossible for us to pull short of the addition of a threat-dropping boss/encounter.
Lava Burst check should come before totems or anything else. I usually drop totems during my first cooldown of lava burst on mobile fights like sartharion etc where you have to drop totems after moving into position.
The Logic on the CL would fail during bloodlust since during bloodlust you'd want zero chain lightnings.
good points
If no FSDot And no FScooldown Then FS
Else If Heroism And No EMCooldown Then Elemental Mastery
Else If Exhaustion And No EMCooldown Then Elemental Mastery
Else If FSDot And no LvBCooldown Then LvB
Else If no Totemsdown Then Drop Totems
Else If LvBCooldown < (LB Casttime minus ~0.3s) And No Heroism Then CL
Else Lightning Bolt
this isnt for like lazyscript or anything it's just an easier way for me to express my logic.
You might want to consider that you don't want to start a LvB cast unless the time left on your FSDoT > your LvB cast time you don't really want to start casting it. This is the occasion where you probably want to clip your FSDoT and follow it with a LvB.
02/03/09, 12:10 PM
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