....
The question is not: "is 280 DPS better than 0 ?" of course !
It's not a "free 280 DPS", it costs a GCD to refresh FS.
Based on our yesterday raid's WWS (Sarth3D 25), my FS hits for 1752 total average, and ticks for 724. My LB hits for 4940 total average, that is 3705 damage during GCD's length (=4940/2*1.5). This means, with 3 ticks FS is higher DPSC than LB. With 6 ticks, it blows it to kingdom's come: 65% more DPSC. The one and only spell that has higher DPSC than FS is LvB (obviously).
Based on our yesterday raid's WWS (Sarth3D 25), my FS hits for 1752 total average, and ticks for 724. My LB hits for 4940 total average, that is 3705 damage during GCD's length (=4940/2*1.5). This means, with 3 ticks FS is higher DPSC than LB. With 6 ticks, it blows it to kingdom's come: 65% more DPSC. The one and only spell that has higher DPSC than FS is LvB (obviously).
You are seriously undervaluing LBs average DPS due to ignoring LO procs, which will drag the average damage per cast down, when in fact as a "bonus" free cast they increase it. Also LB will come off better once you consider the effects of haste on both the GCD and cast time.
However your basic point is correct. I don't think anyone has ever come up with a good argument backed up with hard numbers for not using FlS, so shall we move on?
You are seriously undervaluing LBs average DPS due to ignoring LO procs, which will drag the average damage per cast down, when in fact as a "bonus" free cast they increase it. Also LB will come off better once you consider the effects of haste on both the GCD and cast time.
You are right, sorry, forgot about LO. I'm also using Thunder Capacitor, it screws up the numbers even more (as WWS can't detect TC procs like LO procs).
But about the haste effect, you are wrong. Until GCD cap, FS and LB gets the exact same percentage bonus to DPS(C), so it is safe to ignore haste while comparing the two.
Ok, i have a Elemental Shaman named Chåos (alt code "134" with num lock key on and using num pad) on the realm Nazjartar, Im fairly geared with 4/5 T7.5. I am wondering if my rotation is the problem, Im doing around 2900 dps but i should be seeing at least 3.4k dps.
On some bosses this rotation varies. From looking at the other rotations, i see something wrong in that FS gives LvB a crit buff and not seeing that in a rotation makes me question if im doing the wrong thing or they are doing the wrong thing...not saying anyone is wrong because this is a forum to discuss rotation and not to decide that one rotation is the correct one. If anyone could give me feedback on my rotation, I'd greatly appreciate it.
Last edited by Silentkiller666 : 03/17/09 at 12:50 AM.
I suggest you go read the WWS Gearing and Help thread and/or the Theorycrafting think tank entry, as you are making pretty much every basic mistake going at the moment (bad gem choices, wrong glyphs, wrong meta, not hitcapped etc.). If after reading that you have questions I imagine someone will help.
Then you don't need that second FS in your rotation. By using 2 FSs per rotation, you are clipping a couple of ticks off every FS. Replace your second FS with a LB and your DPS will increase substantially.
I would go to a priority type rotation. Such as, Flame Shock, Lava Burst, CL, then lighting bolt until your CD on LvB is ready. After that LB until CL is ready and repeat. In 5 mans, you should be able to do 3 to 4K with proper glyphs and gemming. in raids,4 to 5k easy. Good Luck
Ok, i have a Elemental Shaman named Chåos (alt code "134" with num lock key on and using num pad) on the realm Nazjartar, Im fairly geared with 4/5 T7.5. I am wondering if my rotation is the problem, Im doing around 2900 dps but i should be seeing at least 3.4k dps.
On some bosses this rotation varies. From looking at the other rotations, i see something wrong in that FS gives LvB a crit buff and not seeing that in a rotation makes me question if im doing the wrong thing or they are doing the wrong thing...not saying anyone is wrong because this is a forum to discuss rotation and not to decide that one rotation is the correct one. If anyone could give me feedback on my rotation, I'd greatly appreciate it.
You should try
FS
Lvb
LB
LB
CL
LB
LB
Lvb
LB
LB
LB/CL
LB
Repeat
The LB/CL you can play with and see how much time you have clipping lvb cast.
Properly raid buffed you should have the haste to do it.
Thanks so much i took what all you have said and im now hitting around 3.3kdps unbuffed and no totems down on one of the dummies in org. (Heroic Training Dummy)
Looking at the new T8 bonuses, the gap between LB and LvB has diminished again. In original WotLK builds, the difference between a perfect LvB rotation and a LB spam was around 18-20%. With the change to the LB Glyph this dropped to around 16%. With the upcoming changes including the ToW Glyph replacing the LvB Glyph, the DoT added to the LB from the T8 (and the loss of the T7 LvB bonus) and the improved Totem of Hex, the difference is likely to be around 12-13%.
Add in a FS into the straight LB spam and the difference will drop further, to as low as 10%. So effectively the difference between a perfect LvB rotation and a much simpler FS/LB rotation is going to be far smaller and if you miss a LvB or 2 out of a fight it's not going to make a great deal of difference - certainly not as much as before.
Now comes the question: As both LB and FS will scale with crit and a FS/LB rotation will scale better with haste than a FS/LvB/LB rotation, will there come a point where stacking these stats over Spell Power and dropping LvB from the rotation becomes viable? I know this comes close to heresy, but I believe the question is worth asking.
Now comes the question: As both LB and FS will scale with crit and a FS/LB rotation will scale better with haste than a FS/LvB/LB rotation, will there come a point where stacking these stats over Spell Power and dropping LvB from the rotation becomes viable? I know this comes close to heresy, but I believe the question is worth asking.
Assuming 100% crit, 4pc t8 working as a rolling dot (aka, a 1.08 crit modifier), and no glyph of lava, LB still doesn't scale as well as LvB. According to my napkin math on the above conditions, LB receives 2.762 damage per cast per spell power and LvB receives 2.421 damage per cast. LB would then get the benefit of 1.381 dps per spell power and LvB 1.614.
Based on that, you would need 100% crit and 62% haste from gear to put LB and LvB scaling the same with spell power. You would need 5801 spell power to make them equal at that point, 4861 spell power at 100% haste.
I'm pretty good at parroting others and doing simple algebra.
Assuming 100% crit, 4pc t8 working as a rolling dot (aka, a 1.08 crit modifier), and no glyph of lava, LB still doesn't scale as well as LvB. According to my napkin math on the above conditions, LB receives 2.762 damage per cast per spell power and LvB receives 2.421 damage per cast. LB would then get the benefit of 1.381 dps per spell power and LvB 1.614.
Based on that, you would need 100% crit and 62% haste from gear to put LB and LvB scaling the same with spell power. You would need 5801 spell power to make them equal at that point, 4861 spell power at 100% haste.
I figured it would need pretty high requirements but have you taken into account that you are likely to have about 200 more SP on LB due to the totem? If you haven't, this would make LB about 6-7% better than your calcs and bring the 2 closer together. Also, once you hit 50% haste, your LvB will be capped on GCD while your LB won't. I appreciate that the numbers are still high and not really feasible.
With this last point in mind, maybe a better question would have been to ask whether there is a point during BL/Hero where it might be beneficial to drop LvB as this is the only time you are likely to get stats in that kind of range.
I figured it would need pretty high requirements but have you taken into account that you are likely to have about 200 more SP on LB due to the totem? If you haven't, this would make LB about 6-7% better than your calcs and bring the 2 closer together. Also, once you hit 50% haste, your LvB will be capped on GCD while your LB won't. I appreciate that the numbers are still high and not really feasible.
With this last point in mind, maybe a better question would have been to ask whether there is a point during BL/Hero where it might be beneficial to drop LvB as this is the only time you are likely to get stats in that kind of range.
You'll probably get above 50% haste with BL. You'll probably never get 100% crit outside of a gimmick fight. You probably won't get above 5800 spell damage anytime soon. In icecrown citadel, we might be able to hit 4800 spell damage with full buffs/flasks/procs, but I don't see us hitting 100% haste in a BL.
No, I didn't take into account the totem. I assumed the totem was a simple addition to the spell power from gear and would only reduce the ~5k number by 200.
On Hodir, you coincidentally get a 100% crit and 50% haste buff with the add buffs, but no massive spellpower buffs.
I'm pretty good at parroting others and doing simple algebra.
The new Ulduar totem is buffing the base damage of Lava burst now instead of Totem of Hex 2.0 (Gorefiend 3.0?) My initial math doesn't show it being that impressive, but they have said that some of the numbers on things are placeholders, I'm holding out hope this is one of them.
This will put the difference a little bit higher, however, even without that I don't see a situation where we will ever cut LvB out of our rotation with things scaling the way they do. Most of these calculations still aren't accounting for the cast speed difference in LB and LvB, even if LB does more damage per cast, there is still a 0.5 second base cast speed difference to compensate for.
After lots of reading..googling and may other things...i'm concerned i'm just a noob.
I've looked at all the rotations, tested them all (as many as i could find on here) and still cant break 2.5K unless i'm on a stationary boss like patchwerk. Some of the other bosses like thaddius is not a good indication as you get the crit buffs.
I know this is isnt a gear thread..but based on this rotation,
FS, LvB, LBX4, LvB, LBX?? rinse and repeat. I"ve also done
FS, LVB, LBX2, CL, LBX2, LvB, and whatever finishes the rotation.
What am i doing wrong in my rotation that people who have less sp then me but 3% more crit are wastin my dps?
I thought I understood most of what you all say about hit cap>haste>crit>SP or so...
If my rotation is good but my gear is not...i'll repost in the thread it belongs to.. but i truly want advice and help...
Well there are some things that I noticed. One thing is your cloak is a melee dps cloak. If you're a JC then you can use 3 dragons eyes gems on some of your sockets for more spell damage. Other than that if you glance through this thread when people are saying "rotation" what they really mean is priority.
FS is first priority
LvB is second
Then depending on haste levels or preference you're essentially fitting in as many LB/CL as you can fit during the cooldown on LvB. When FS drops refresh it asap.
A couple other questions would be what glyphs are you using? Are you fully hit capped when raiding, are you using all your food/flasks/elixirs/pots?
And another note that many people have mentioned is when you go for a very tight rotation you have to have some pretty good latency, could this be affecting your performance?
Please don't turn this thread into the WWS help thread. Discussion about rotations is one thing, questions on how to optimize your specific rotation are another. This thread is filled with information that should allow any reasonably intelligent person to figure out for himself what his optimal rotation ought to be.
You know how much haste you have. You know the duration of Flame Shock and the cooldown of Lava Burst. Figure it out.
Thanks for the math Bink, I have been wondering about that as well. Another nagging question for me is how much haste is going to be "wasted" until we can add one more spell into our rotation.
It gets foggier with whether CL with continue to be viable single-target dps spell.
I say that because the quickest way for us to add a spell in, is by adding two spells in.
I'm sitting at 592 haste (18.05%).
Adding 5% and 3% buffs, I cast LB in 1.54 sec and CL/LvB/GCD in 1.18 sec (no lag).
My symetric rotation:
FS LvB LB CL LB LB LB CL LvB LB LB LB CL LB
4 LBs and 2 short spells between each LvB, for a total of 8.52 seconds each (a LvB landing every 9.7 sec).
Plus, I'm still using my old lvl70 totem bringing me +100 haste rating on proc (without internal CD).
Note: this is not a choice over hex totem, 15 Patchwerk25 downs (12 with my cham), and still didn't see his totem ;(
How exactly are you meaning that we clip the Flame Shocks? In order to clip a Flame Shock dot even with a "perfect" 8 second LvB window, we would have to get the casting time for the Lava Bursts under 1 second in order to fit two LvB rotations into the 18 second Flame Shock Dot. While probably possible in theory with a Bloodlust active, i doubt this is an issue with real haste values and delays.
How exactly are you meaning that we clip the Flame Shocks? In order to clip a Flame Shock dot even with a "perfect" 8 second LvB window, we would have to get the casting time for the Lava Bursts under 1 second in order to fit two LvB rotations into the 18 second Flame Shock Dot. While probably possible in theory with a Bloodlust active, i doubt this is an issue with real haste values and delays.
Good point. I'd forgotten that the dot timer starts at the start of the GCD, rather than the end. Which means that "black spot" was just a product of that assumption. There are still a few dips & changes from adding extra bolts in though.
I've done some more work on rotations, including CL as a filler on the first half, and it looks like it's a 20 dps gain at best.
Rotation:
<start up time of FS, LvB, LB filler>
LvB
FS
LB until LvB up
LvB
LBx2
CL
LB until LvB up
repeat
The only change in the rotation will be to completely drop CL once you have T8 4pc. I'll post the graphs & worksheet later (although I'd seriously need to tidy up the worksheet)
03/05/09, 7:22 AM
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