McBeefy

ah yes air time... neglected to account for that, but since Clear casting is the next 2 spells adding a cushion LB and then CL after LvB would indeed ensure it was a 40% mana cast.

 

Ghando

This is true, but I don't think the mana costs of X rotation are worthwhile discussion. Even without a Shadow Priest or Ret Paladin or Survival Hunter (that is to say, no Replenishment or meaningful outside mana recovery), I trucked pretty easily through Patchwerk using CL on every available cooldown and only had mana issues at the end after Bloodlust. I don't know if I would have run dry; I used a crappy mana potion for 2100 and had ~2100 mana when Patchwerk died about 90 seconds later. On a longer fight like Sapphiron where I do some healing as well, I can Thunderstorm from time to time while moving and mana is a non-issue.

Any fight where you have any kind of guaranteed movement gives you opportunities to Thunderstorm. No fight where you stand still (and Thunderstorm would cost you damage) is long enough to give you serious mana issues, even without the sort of raid synergy that you'd expect from a good group.

I'm a Shaman.

 

• Binkenstein

I believe someone posted earlier saying that "empowerment" talents had been changed to be a % bonus to spellpower, so it goes co-eff*(spellpower*(1+bonus+bonus...))

 

Vitalix

I understand the concern. When testing on target dummies, CL completely cripples my mana pool. However, after doing all of the entry level content (heroic naxx and sapph), I've had almost zero mana issues on any boss fight (presumably due to replenishment and the extra clearcasting procs from mage-crit-buff).

Mana issues have only arisen when I've had to Ankh or off-heal significantly.

However, I do make liberal use of Thunderstorm for the sake of the mana return required to maintain a CL rotation. Perhaps the real question is whether using CL + one TS/45sec > no CL.

Using TS every cooldown sucks up, at most, 1.5 seconds / 45 seconds, or 3.3% of total cast time. Binkenstein calculated:

"with the changes, comparing 2LvB/FS/10LB with 2LvB/FS/7LB/4CL, you gain ~170 dps, at the cost of ~550 mps.
That's a 3.69% output increase for a 67% cost increase, assuming single target for CL."

which does suggest that I might want to reconsider using CL when the Shamanism change hits. Just using one CL after LvB might be the way to go or, alternatively, only use CL spam when able to hit the target with TS.

 

Ezareth

You are correct.

My problem after looking into this again was balancing chain lightning around BASE damage instead of balancing it around total damage.

You could combine both of your equations and just divide by 1.5 and 2 at the end to simplify it.

I should have figured that it would take a ridiculous amount of spellpower for a 10% spellpower bonus to overcome the inherent 33% bonus CL gets from a shorter cast time.

Damn, I was looking forward to being able to remove CL from the equation.

 

Twistedtotem

From testing in 10 man/25 man content the main issue for me with plugging in CL into my rotation is the overall group DPS early on in Naxx doesn't allow me to keep CL in my rotation b/c I'm going OOM fairly easily due to others not putting out the dps with hit rating being an issue so far for some people. My hit which is only at 260 I still am trying to get to the 300-320 hit plateau. I've mainly stuck with FS. LvB, LB LB LB LvB FS rotation for the time being.

 

gman

Having had a kid in the past year, I am really missing the simplicity of LB spam. On a boss like patchwerk I can get almost perfect cycles of "keep flame shock ticking, use LvB when up, use bolts otherwise". However, for any other boss with any level of movement or timing complexity those cycles die a horrible and dps sucking death.

Is there a level of haste/crit where LB spam might get within 5 percent of a complex cycle on damage on paper? If so, it might be the better overall strategy since there aren't many patchwerks in game.

 

Agash

On the contrary, on those more mobile fights, the spells you should be dropping are your LBs. Both FS and LvB do significantly more DPSC than LB plus FS can be cast on the move and LvB has a shorter cast time making them much easier to get off in a mobile fight. It is actually during these fights where your DPS should shine compared to classes that don't have such hard hitting short cast spells.

 

Sjera

There's no level of haste or crit that will make LB spam a viable option.
You really need to have flame shock up, and cast Lava Burst whenever you can.

However, at the moment, I'm normally just casting chain lightning after each Lava Burst, this is not optimal for dps, but is one less moving cooldown to monitor, ensures that chain lightning is always cast under 'clearcasting' and is within 5% of the most optimal cycle.

It also means that your 'fill' is just LB spam, which is easier to adjust under variations in haste (trinket procs, bloodlust)

FlS + LvB + CL + LBx4 + LvB + CL + LBx3

 

Ghando

Rotations can see some change if you're moving around or otherwise being made to NOT hard cast for periods of time. The key is to always keep an eye on all your cooldowns (Flame Shock DOT timer, Lava Burst most of all) and know at all times exactly how much time you have. If you know you'll have an extra half-second after the next two Lightning Bolts before your Lava Burst cools down, use that opportunity to take a couple steps. Most movement in a boss encounter can be done predictably (obviously there are exceptions where your movement is reactive), so always keep these things in mind.

It's possible to get everything down very fluidly especially once you're familiar with every encounter. It's fairly similar to playing a Shadow Priest IMO, in terms of knowing what you need to do when several seconds down the road. Watch your cooldowns and plan ahead.

I'm a Shaman.

 

Laupen

By all means continue with that, but if you look at the post at the bottom of the previous page, you may decide to fire off an LB before that CL...

 

tufy

As much as I'm aware, only Shadow and Flame is multiplicative. However, as proven shortly after by Kazuha, this multiplication system does not appear in affliction talents. I haven't come around to testing it yet, but it could go either way and it could be that S&F was specifically nerfed to lower destruction warlock damage.

Creativity requires the courage to let go of certainties.

 

Ezareth

11% hit is all you need for 25 mans, and as long as you have a shadowpriest/boomkin all you need in 10 mans too.

I still don't see how people are having issues with mana using CL as an elemental shaman unless they are completely removing thunderstorm from their rotation.

On patch now I am putting myself 10-12 yards from him on the pull as I use my first flameshock so my thunderstorm doesn't lower my DPS.

I should be able to break 3700 DPS on next reset if I don't screw up my rotations again.

 

Phlis

Using Thunderstorm whether you're in range to actually hit anything or not is not a waste of time. It's always a good idea to use thuderstorm in my opinion. It's a free 8% mana gain every 45 seconds, which is really good in 10 and 5 mans. In very long fights, or movement fights, it's always a good idea to TStorm. Even on a stationary long fight, takign the GCD to replenish will help your DPS in the end. I've got 15k+ mana buffed at the moment, so TStorm is returning 4800 mana every 3 minutes, 9600 over 6 minutes, which is aking to being able to chug a mana pot every 2 minutes pre-potion nerf. As my gear level increases these numbers will only go upwards. Using Thunderstorm everytime it's up is always a good idea, in my opinion.

 

Ghando

I'm going to vehemently disagree with you on Thunderstorm. Like all regen, it's useless if you're not going to run out of mana. Thunderstorm is absolutely a waste of time and costs you damage, unless it's actually preventing you from going OOM and thus averting the zero-damage situation you're in without mana. So using Thunderstorm on cooldown is stupid unless you know you will run OOM without it. This of course assumes a Patchwerk-type stand-and-nuke fight. It's easy to find time to Thunderstorm in more mobile fights, so knock yourself out there.

I'm a Shaman.

 

Lucitron

Could you please provide with some evidence or similar that supports the "air time"-thingy?

As far as I know, the "air time" is just a graphical effect that doesn't affect the sequence in which spells lands on a target. It was sort of highlighted during the beta, when there was discussions if a dps-cycle with Lava Burst followed by a Flame Shock would eat up this 'second' Flame Shock before it had time to tick or if the Flame Shock was allowed to run for 8 seconds. The reasoning back then was that Flame Shock is instant and might thus land before Lava Burst, which had an "air time". The testing that was reported here on EJ-forum, showed that Lava Burst would never eat up the Flame Shock that followed it (until 8 seconds later when the cycle was repeated). This would mean in extension that when Lava Burst triggers Elemental Focus it will reduce the mana cost of Chain Lightning, regardless if it cast right after Lava Burst or if you squeeze in a Lightning Bolt between.


Addendum:
Talked with a fellow Warlock that supports the "air time"-part. So now I have evidence that supports either case. Think I'll have to test this myself.

At 7:45, offices are empty. Some could get bored, but I stay calm, I know how to adapt. While waiting for them I have time to take a coffee.

 

Laupen

I guess it comes down to if mana cost is calculated when you begin casting, rather than when the cast is completed?

Either way, it seems like it's no extra effort to throw and LB first, just in case, and since CC has two charges, it's win-win?

However, this does bring up a question I was wondering about... If you cast LvB with no FlS on the target and hit FlS immediately afterwards (so it hits first), does it still autocrit? If not then it means that the actual damage done by a spell is calculated when you cast it (or when it's released) rather than when it hits. This is obvious in terms of buffs landing on you after you've began casting, but no so obvious in terms of buffs dropping off the mob while casting or during air time... Hmm.

 

Lucitron

The test that I mentioned was just about this, hence it looks like that travel-time is irrelevant. However, the Warlock I talked with mentioned how she (and other Warlocks) use Shadow Bolt followed with Soul Drain, where Shadow Bolt kills the mob, yet Soul Drain is instantly applied and thus allows them to get a soul shard. This points to that travel-time is very relevant indeed.

At 7:45, offices are empty. Some could get bored, but I stay calm, I know how to adapt. While waiting for them I have time to take a coffee.

 

B-Dawg

I use T-Storm in 5 mans all the time, anyone who doesn't know when or how to incorporate it into pulls so that it doesn't cost you damage, is a terrible Elemental Shaman. 10 mans, it's a different story. I only use it if I need mana, or if I'm running around for whatever reason and it's not on cooldown.

 

Agash

My understanding on the LvB Crit/Clearcasting situation is that they use two different mechanics. The FS debuff that allows the LvB to crit is determined 'on cast' while the Clearcasting proc is determined 'on crit'. One therefore is determined when the spell leaves your hand and the other when the spell reaches the target.

 

kingkaos

I can confirm casting Flameshock during the travel time of LavaBurst will not give you the auto-crit. Ive been playing with rotations and this mechanic since expansion launch, and have seen enough non crits to believe.

 

Taeruq

I'm finding a great synergy between Thunderstorm and Improved Fire Nova Totem, if only on aoe trash (but really, in the current content, almost every pull is an aoe pull).

(With a few exceptions) Thunderstorm will not knock back stunned targets or targets that are immune to stun, so on the pull Fire Nova goes down. As the mobs run into range fire nova detonates stunning the mobs (or showing their immunity to stun) followed by a quick Thunderstorm (all the mobs are immune to the knock back) and then ToW gets put down before the mages and warlocks have a hissy fit.

 

Xiar

Elemental Mastery + Thunderstorm let's you be an AEer at least once during the AE trash pulls!

It has it uses... Lets you kick back mobs that got past the tanks... It's a nice time buyer on the zombie chows on the Gluth fight. Even without elemental mastery up.

It also lets you maintain LB spam if you do run low on mana.

My fav is that it's an auto dismount and cliff dive for silly hordies, gotta remember to get a parachute cloak and have fun with it.

 

Ghando

Nobody's talking about 5-mans here. You can drink every pull if you want to and no boss fights are long enough for anyone besides maybe an undergeared healer to have mana problems. This is to say nothing of the difficulty gap between 5-mans and raids. So yeah, in 5-mans do whatever you want.

I'm a Shaman.

 

MatsT

From a resto point of view, i don't specc in clearcasting, but i have noticed on a lot of occasions that the 900 mana procc from the Soul of the Dead trinket proccs on cast and not on impact (on damage spells when grinding).

Anyway, this issue should be extremely easy to settle as it's enough that one single elemantal shaman logs on, casts a bolt at 30+ yards range and sees if the procc goes off on cast or on impact.