• Binkenstein

Glyph of Lava is definitely a flat co-eff gain, which means it'll be more valuable than Flametongue

 

Mmootimus

Nice to see a consensus reached. It would be nice to get a thank you for sticking all that theorycrafting up re: Glyph of Lava in the other thread... then again I doubt Bink is exactly inundated with bunches of flowers for producing SEIC.

Anyway, once I have a PTR that a) I can log onto b) isn't horrifically bugged - I will try and test out the exact effects of Shamanism and the new Ele Oath.

 

Ghando

EJ's planning on a PTR Patchwerk run after Christmas, when the test realm will be more stable. Either myself or Eswedge will be there and we'll have some real numbers to look at.

I'm a Shaman.

 

gman

On the subject of waiting for LVB or not, it seems to not be an either/or situation. If you use a no-wait setup, it could help you on situational awareness critical fights like triple-drakes where you can g15 the hotkeys for LVB/CL/LB in that order into a one button g15 mash. So in a situation where survival > max theoretical DPS and you are already watching X cooldowns, X timers, and watching out for X number of hazards (walls, fissures, etc); I definitely could recommend the macro method since at that point you just have to remember to refresh flame shock.

It reminds me of the tech diving concept known as task loading. Use a no-wait macro for situations that are new or complex and max-dps wait for LB on dances you have mastered or drag races.

 

• Binkenstein

I seem to be in a bit of a quandry.

WWS parses give uptime percentages for ClearCasting at around 60-65%.
However, my models predict ~80% uptime.

Obviously there's something missing from my model, but I'm not sure what it is. My suspicion is that overload procs may be affecting CC uptime, in the sense that they can cause and consume charges. For example, with one recent Patchwerk log I had 37% crit for FS, 41% for LB overloads, 47% for LB, and 100% for LvB. At a minimum, I would assume 77% uptime, but the logs only show 63%. I'll do some testing to see if Overload does have anything to do with it, but can people check their own logs to confirm whether their uptimes are what they're expecting, and if possible, do some FS/LvB/LB logging (just one of each spell) and see if Overload procs, and what it does to the CC stack.

[e]Scratch that idea. Overloads have no effect on the CC stack..

 

Agash

I'm not sure whether this will help or not but I'll throw it out there just in case. My spreadsheets show (using your crit %s) a 80.15% uptime for CC in terms of the proportion of spells effected by it but a 71.8% uptime in terms of actual time with the buff up. This is largely due to the instant (excluding latency) consumption of a charge when FS is cast followed by the 3 secs wait until the LvB lands. With the LvB having the lowest chance of all the spells in the rotation of having CC up (about 66.6%) that 3 secs between the FS landing and the LvB landing will have a disproportionate impact on the uptimes of CC.

This of course all assumes that the problem might be the difference between Uptime(% casts) and Uptime (% of time). If that isn't the issue, I can't see where the problem could come from.

 

Mmootimus

Is there any easy way to use WWS to show clearcasting uptime %? I can find the number of hits/crits easily enough, and the number of Clearcasting buffs gained, but nothing more. Or is it a case of digging through the log file?

Would be interested to know the methods being used.

 

Phlis

A short, relatively easy program could be written for that, if you like. It'd be something like:

Search Through combat log file line by line, look for "Louk gains Clearcasting"
take time stamp
find next instance of the same
if new time - old time < 12s, uptime = new time - old time
else, uptime = time + 12
until end of file

divide totaltime/uptime to get %

brute force, but it would work.

post a log, bink, I can write one up for you.

 

Ghando

Since nukes expend Clearcasting charges, wouldn't that 12-second rule be inaccurate? If you're just spamming LB (to say nothing of CL or LvB) you'll have an uptime of under 4s after a single crit.

I'm a Shaman.

 

Ezareth

Would it be possible that I could get in there or are these raids typically full?

I have a decent Elemental Set I could transfer over.

 

Phlis

Yeah, it was just a rough outline. It'd be better to search for the clearcasting fades line, and assume clearcasting was up in betweens the gains and fades for the entire time. Ie, look for xxx gains clearcasting, skip everything until you see clearcasting fades from xxx, and subtract the times.

 

Ghando

Yeah, I've been looking at WWS logs but I never see the "X fades" line. It's just "player gains X" and occasionally "X is refreshed." So I assume any instance of a player gaining X that doesn't explicitly state "X is refreshed" means the buff fell off, but I have no numbers to tell me how long ago it fell off. And there's some oddities because it's a timed buff with expended charges. So after a Lava Burst you can cast two bolts and say the second of them crits. That second bolt expends the last charge of Clearcasting but it also procs the buff in time for the next cast. So while you don't have 100% CC uptime from a combat log standpoint, you functionally had 100% uptime.

I'm a Shaman.

 

gothic

I may be misunderstanding you here, but were you looking at if the CC stack was consumed/refreshed by a LO proc/crit? And if so, was your statement regarding the stack being unaffected in relation to your modeler, the ptr, or the live servers?

I was wondering because I had tested this before for my own program, to see if LO refreshed the CC stack (From playing, I was 99% sure it did, but I wanted to be 100% before I wrote it in) or not. I don't know if I'm even in the right ballpark as your question when I say that LO procs and refreshes the CC stack and EO on live. I hope that doesn't change in the next patch though.

 

• Binkenstein

Well, LO has no effect on the consuming of charges, which is what I'm looking at.

Trying a different approach, getting a # of affected spells in StasisCL. More information will be forthcoming later.

 

Phlis

Well, what WWS parses and the raw text of the combat log are definatly not the same thing then. I just did a quick test on the IF training dummy. If you Flame Shock/Lava Burst, there is a gain's line after the Lava Burst damage. Follow that up with 2 non-crits and there is a Louk's Clearcasting Fades from Louk line before the second Lightning Bolt's damage, due to travel time, but it's there. If you crit while under clearcasting there is a Louk's Clearcasting is refreshed line(just use elemental mastery lightning bolt after lava burst too see for yourself). And finally, if you just wait for clearcasting to fall off, you get the fades line.

I assume the difference between actual WWS Clearcasting uptime percentage and the excel spreadsheet percentage is due to WWS not parsing the fades lines. Like I said, you'd have to go through the actual combat log text for that, most likely.

 

• Binkenstein

The differences are going to be due to the time difference between generation and use of the charges. A classic example of this is that you can cast LB, Flame Shock, and hit with FS before LB reaches the target.

 

Sjera

I've just been doing some comparison of my own.
Having updated my clearcasting modelling to account for the different spell crit chances, I find myself getting pretty similar results to Bink.

When comparing against my last Patchwerk log however I noticed the following:
WWS: 'Clearcasting' 34 times.
WMO: 'Clearcasting' 47 Times
This is from the same fight - though I posted the WWS and another raid member posted the WMO...

Interestingly, if the WMO clearcasting effect indicates that 47x2 spells were cast under clearcasting - then this would actually agree with the model (around 75% - about right for my stats at the time).

Is WWS reporting only the times 'clearcasting' is activated and ignoring 'renews'?
What is WMO reporting, and why is it different?

 

• Binkenstein

WWS is just looking at the % of time the buff is up. That doesn't seem to have any direct correlation to the number of spells affected by it though.

 

Gaguusi

Sjera or Bink, do you mind writing up the model you were using? I've been looking for a way to calculate normalized CC uptime.

Thanks in advance.

edit: I think I figured it out myself: (crit chance * total spells cast * cast time) / total spells cast. Anyone care to comment on the accuracy?

 

Ribs

I checked the WWS and WMO logs for our last Patchwerk on our Elemental Shaman after reading these last posts. WWS showed 40 procs, whereas WMO showed 57. However browsing through the WWS logfile, I count 57 procs total, if I include the times it refreshed. If I count just the actual gains, I get to 40 as WWS showed. As such, I think it's safe to say that WWS only counts the actual gains and ignores any refreshing of the buff.

Looking at the 57 procs at 137 casts, the numbers add up with the recorded crit%. The 40 would not.

Edit: For clarity, both reports were parsed from my logs.

 

• Binkenstein

I've had some stuff back from giansm (the StasisCL guy), and this is what I think is happening.

From a 70 crit/141 cast patchwerk, we had 43 gains, and 10 refreshes. I need to do more double checking, but when two crits occur in a row, there's no combat log entry for clearcasting gains because the charge count doesn't change. At least I think this is what is happening, need to look at the logs for a multi-crit chain of spells to be sure. It may also be that the entries aren't generated correctly.

It may be that WMO is counting gains and refreshes, but I don't think it'll match my expected figures either.

 

gothic

*post removed*

 

Phatpharm

I am interested in participating in a PTR Patchwerk run during the holidays. The more Elemental Shamans the more data, correct? I have my 4pc T7 properly gemmed and enchanted, and working on replacing my few last blues (I'm only 2 weeks into 80 so give me a break)

PM me if you are interested.

 

Phlis

I don't think so. You lose 1 charge on spell CAST, and you don't go back to 2 until spell HIT(when the crit is calculated), so you should always get a Clearcasting is Refreshed message, though there may be instances of multi-crits in the same second which cause problems(chain lightning and lightning bolt hitting close together, and Chain Lightning/Flame Shock both critting in a row, or chainlightning critting on multiple targets, though thats a different situation really).

 

Gaguusi

I had a thought about the damage benefit gained from CC uptime in the upcoming patch.
The formula "spell x damage" * (1 + 0.1 * CC uptime) is what I could come up with. Any corrections / additions are welcome.