[Elemental] Rotations - Page 8

Kishkegelt · 12/25/08, 1:48 AM

Originally Posted by Radek125

I have 1951 spell power(with FT), 26% crit, 329 haste, 268 hit + [Snapper Extreme] = 308 hit rating and I am unable to get beyond 2300 dps on Patchwerk 25 man. I've done a few simulations, and they all say that I should be much higher dmg with my gear. Logic leads me to believe there is something wrong with my rotation but I am doing the standard rotation talked about here. FS LvB LB LB LB LB CL repeat. I still use CL because otherwise there is time lost in between casts. (I adjust this as needed based on haste and gdc timers)

Anyone have any idea whats wrong? Even a point in the right direction. I'm taking a look at my mods now to see if client lag may be causing problems but my fps is generally 30+.

I'm glad to hear someone else is in the same situation Radek. WWS confirmed for me similar DPS with similar gear. Obviously it's worrying because I need to clear, let's say 3400 dps to be competitive in my raid, and the incoming 20% patch buff won't get me there, let alone to the 4000+ Bink's SEIC predicts. I *think* I'm following the advice on these forums, and in BC I was generally in the top 5 of my (Sunwell-clearing) raid, so it's not that I have dead reflexes or anything like that.

Instance servers have been very laggy but I doubt that would single my class out for punishment.

Kishkegelt · 12/25/08, 2:08 AM

Originally Posted by Radek125

http://elitistjerks.com/f79/t36782-s...1/#post1021578 - In short - yes it is better then our other trinkets and it should not be green. I expect the proc to be changed similar to how [The Lightning Capacitor] is.

No, my earlier post would underestimate the value of this trinket if Manpile is right that there is no 2.5sec wait to acquire charges 2, 3, and 4, or that its damage may be enhanced by things like Earth and Moon.

You could then expect to get a Thunder charge off every 12-13 seconds even with low crit and haste, getting down to probably just over 10 seconds with 50% crit and haste, from the standard spell rotation. So that'd mean an effective EP range between 153 and 185, basically.

That's still not enough to replace the best trinkets in the game, but it's leaving out a lot of upside factors:

1. Lightning Overload

2. Bloodlust

3. Elemental Mastery

4. Damage buffs (Manpile can you confirm what buffs affect it?)

5. Chain Lightning sometimes seems to double-crit a single target, but I don't know if that's real

So, um, it might be much better than I previously said. I'm happy to model the above (except for chain lightning which I don't completely understand) if Manpile or anyone is clear on what, if anything, strengthens the damage on the proc. (Don't feel like getting very specific if it's still gonna be quite inaccurate).

Radek125 · 12/25/08, 2:12 AM

Originally Posted by Kishkegelt

I'm glad to hear someone else is in the same situation Radek. WWS confirmed for me similar DPS with similar gear. Obviously it's worrying because I need to clear, let's say 3400 dps to be competitive in my raid, and the incoming 20% patch buff won't get me there, let alone to the 4000+ Bink's SEIC predicts. I *think* I'm following the advice on these forums, and in BC I was generally in the top 5 of my (Sunwell-clearing) raid, so it's not that I have dead reflexes or anything like that.

You hit it right on. I mean our hunters are pushing 5k dps and in some situations over 10% of the raids dmg. Granted the OP pets are getting changed next patch but mages aren't far behind at roughly 4500 dps. Thats freaking crazy. I don't see a 20% (roughly) dmg buff putting us any where close to any of the other dps classes. Being dead last on DPS when I am doing everything in my power to maximize my dps is annoying to say the least. Hopefully we can figure this out. I'm only missing a few pieces of gear to complete my dream gear so I doubt I'm going to get another 1k+ dps out of 250 spell dmg and 200 haste.

• Binkenstein · 12/25/08, 3:36 AM

Originally Posted by Kishkegelt

let alone to the 4000+ Bink's SEIC predicts.

That's because it's updated for 3.0.8....

Eyphix · 12/25/08, 6:57 AM

Originally Posted by Ghando

Yeah, I've been looking at WWS logs but I never see the "X fades" line. It's just "player gains X" and occasionally "X is refreshed." So I assume any instance of a player gaining X that doesn't explicitly state "X is refreshed" means the buff fell off, but I have no numbers to tell me how long ago it fell off. And there's some oddities because it's a timed buff with expended charges. So after a Lava Burst you can cast two bolts and say the second of them crits. That second bolt expends the last charge of Clearcasting but it also procs the buff in time for the next cast. So while you don't have 100% CC uptime from a combat log standpoint, you functionally had 100% uptime.

What if the buff doesn't get reapplied before the cast goes off? I can easily get a LvB cast off before a LB cast from 35 yards away gets to the target, during bloodlust I could even get off LB.

LB(a) leaves the caster
LB(b) cast begins
LB(a) crit (CC applied)
LB(b) leaves the caster
LB(c) cast begins
LB(b) hit
LB(c) leaves the caster (CC falls off)
LvB cast begins
LvB leaves the caster (does not have CC up at successful cast)
LB(c) crits (CC applied)
LvB crits (combat log will show CC refreshed message)

It is all depending on distance from the target. With 14.85% haste I can hit a CL on the target before LB hits at about 25-27 yards (estimating with totem ranges). With bloodlust up I can do the same thing from about 21-22 yards (just beyond searing totem range). So CC uptime would benefit from the caster being close enough to the target so they cannot have a cast end while another missile is still in flight. This problem is amplified more when you have targets with large hit boxes like dragons. You could possibly see 2 casts complete during the time a LB travels between the caster and the target. Being no 15 yards or less from the target would make that case impossible but it isn't always possible to be at close range, especially on dragons where their head is 10-15 yards off the ground.

Also, the CC refresh messages you get in the combat log are only when something refreshes CC when it has 2 charges already. Something like a LB critting and having an overload bolt refresh it immediately after. If you see a CC refreshed message from a LvB immediately after a LB crit gives you an applied message it means the LvB did not have CC applied to it.

Edit: Tested on a target dummy to get refreshed message in combat log.

Manpile · 12/25/08, 1:53 PM

Originally Posted by Kishkegelt

No, my earlier post would underestimate the value of this trinket if Manpile is right that there is no 2.5sec wait to acquire charges 2, 3, and 4, or that its damage may be enhanced by things like Earth and Moon.

You could then expect to get a Thunder charge off every 12-13 seconds even with low crit and haste, getting down to probably just over 10 seconds with 50% crit and haste, from the standard spell rotation. So that'd mean an effective EP range between 153 and 185, basically.

That's still not enough to replace the best trinkets in the game, but it's leaving out a lot of upside factors:

1. Lightning Overload

2. Bloodlust

3. Elemental Mastery

4. Damage buffs (Manpile can you confirm what buffs affect it?)

5. Chain Lightning sometimes seems to double-crit a single target, but I don't know if that's real

So, um, it might be much better than I previously said. I'm happy to model the above (except for chain lightning which I don't completely understand) if Manpile or anyone is clear on what, if anything, strengthens the damage on the proc. (Don't feel like getting very specific if it's still gonna be quite inaccurate).

Thanks for the response!

I can confirm that there is no 2.5 second cooldown between charges, only after the bolt is fired. I have many a time gained two straight charges from a LB crit which procced LO which also crit. I've also gained 4 charges off 4 back to back (to back to back) LB crits. With lightning overload crits proccing the trinket, in a raid environment 1 bolt per 10 seconds is certainly quite common. Especially next patch with the changes to elemental mastery.

As for what buffs affect it I'm afraid I don't have too much information on that subject. What I can confirm is that Earth and Moon DOES affect it, as does misery of course. I believe Stormstrike affects it as well (though that doesnt matter to elemental shamans at the moment). Spell Power does not affect it. I think it's safe to assume that anything that directly modifies the damage will affect the trinket, which is why I'm very hopeful for both Elemental Oath and Glyph of Lightning Bolt next patch. I think the Glyph might just be wishful thinking but I don't think it's a stretch to assume EO will make the proc do extra damage.

I don't have any tier 6 pieces but if someone would be willing to put on their 4p and fire at some training dummies, please post whether the proc deals 5% more damage

Chain Lightning only single crits and adds one charge. However if there are multiple mobs, each jump/crit will add an additional charge. This doesnt do too much against bosses but it's still interesting. I remember quite fondly when I had the Glyph of Chain Lightning, elemental mastery then chain lightning on 4 mobs, instantly getting 4 charges, and firing off a free LB at the last mob.

Phlis · 12/25/08, 3:38 PM

Originally Posted by Kishkegelt

I'm glad to hear someone else is in the same situation Radek. WWS confirmed for me similar DPS with similar gear. Obviously it's worrying because I need to clear, let's say 3400 dps to be competitive in my raid, and the incoming 20% patch buff won't get me there, let alone to the 4000+ Bink's SEIC predicts. I *think* I'm following the advice on these forums, and in BC I was generally in the top 5 of my (Sunwell-clearing) raid, so it's not that I have dead reflexes or anything like that.

Instance servers have been very laggy but I doubt that would single my class out for punishment.

I don't know what to tell you, other then watch your rotations better? Last week I was at 3200+ dps, and that was before 4pc, and getting valorius replacements for heroic earthshatter. We're certainly capable of getting 3400-3500 dps, with the best gear available.

ehensley · 12/25/08, 5:52 PM

Ok, I've been reading these pages for a long while and the BS meter is going off the scale. I'd like to see wws reports showing where a shaman in a 25 max raid with 29x hit is doing 3.2k dps for a boss fight.

But I bet this will be pulled shortly but that's ok.

Eyphix · 12/25/08, 6:39 PM

Originally Posted by ehensley

Ok, I've been reading these pages for a long while and the BS meter is going off the scale. I'd like to see wws reports showing where a shaman in a 25 max raid with 29x hit is doing 3.2k dps for a boss fight.

But I bet this will be pulled shortly but that's ok.

Wow Web Stats

At the time I had 295 hit rating. Almost the same gear as armory except the slot with Ring of Manifested Pain had a ring with +24 hit and I was using +30 hit rating food. Using priority casting FS > LvB > CL > LB.

Matsumi · 12/25/08, 6:45 PM

I'd personally put the figure closer to 3.4k then 3.5k when we have the best gear available.

My guilds last recorded patchwerk kill I did 3158 dps. Just the pig food buff and raid buffs, no flask. I was also still using two SWP items, which I have since replaced.

Biggest thing with rotation is keep it flowing. LvB and CL should never be off cooldown for more then a GCD, the exception being recasting FS because it fell off or both come off cooldown at the same time. I know I could probably get another 80ish dps if I had a better connection, I play at about 180ms latency at all times, and for some reason have a wonky upload, which phases me more then the .2 second lag I get at all times.

WWS fight in question: Wow Web Stats 1 (2 weeks ago)

edit: I love eating my own words, in hindsight, I think our current dps cap is closer to 3.9k after doing some looking around.

oh, a newer fight is up, 3431 dps

newer fight Wow Web Stats 2

Rhiot · 12/25/08, 7:11 PM

Originally Posted by ehensley

Ok, I've been reading these pages for a long while and the BS meter is going off the scale. I'd like to see wws reports showing where a shaman in a 25 max raid with 29x hit is doing 3.2k dps for a boss fight.

http://wowwebstats.com/4c4pchhpxmgqs?s=579049-612190

Our first 25 man kill; 3541 dps with only 1 piece of Naxx25 gear and no 4pc T7 bonus. I also mangled my rotation a bit causing a couple of non-crit LvBs.

lolshamans · 12/25/08, 7:20 PM

When I don't screw up my rotation and the RNG gods don't conspire against me, I can pull close to 4k (in 25man, full raid buffs).

Then again, I'm using the -ridiculously good until patch hits- Illustration of the Dragon Soul.

I'll see if I can dig up a ~4k wws. That being said, other dps classes, including hybrids, are still by and large way, way ahead of me.

Edit: here's a recent, approx. 3.9 patchwerk while 20 manning for the achievement (missing 5 people to make the fight shorter)
Wow Web Stats

And if I remember well, I was having unresponsive casting issues too on that kill, definitely wasn't my best.

Phlis · 12/26/08, 1:28 AM

Originally Posted by ehensley

Ok, I've been reading these pages for a long while and the BS meter is going off the scale. I'd like to see wws reports showing where a shaman in a 25 max raid with 29x hit is doing 3.2k dps for a boss fight.

But I bet this will be pulled shortly but that's ok.

Wow Web Stats

webstats for last week, as I said, before getting a lot of new pieces. 264 is my hitcap, draenai, and all.

slackiepop · 12/27/08, 11:45 PM

hmm, despite the fact that my name etc makes me out to be a mage i do have active interest in elesham goings on. I'm hugely puzzled by the people getting really low dps, and i personally am not sticking to a set rotation due to totem procs (the badge haste one) and being lazy/laggy.

The World of Warcraft Armory

'scuse the gear and the spec, for I havent changed since levelling and im a lazy alt. im at 2384 SP with totem + flask and all other stats to be correct as per armory page. last week i managed to get in a (terrible) pug to naxx 10 and put out 3100 on patch. given that i had no replenishment so used up cooldowns on thunderstorm mana regen and spammed LB a lot with just keeping flameshock up and then using lava burst whenever it wasn't on cooldown. my gear was slightly worse (belt of blasting and the alts 75 spellpower trinket from BoA badgeloot) but i was hitcapped at 263 with a boomkin in raid (E+M + imp moonkin aura surely helped my dps i guess)

what im wondering is, how are people structuring their dps- are you trying to fit in a set rotation and therefore casting one too many LB/CL, letting FS fall off and non critting on LvB? i would ask if im getting lucky, but i repeated at 3k again today on archavon (hardest boss ingame trustori) or maybe i was just lucky twice- although i did get misses today as per no boomkin. My stats overall put me ~2% crit behind, 70 haste ahead and approximately on a par spellpower with radek125 who mentions being unable to break 2300dps- this isn't a flame in the slightest, im just wondering where the 7-800 dps difference has come from? rng?

i guess in the midst of everyone giving a good old whinge about elemental dps, im really not finding it that bad at all- at least its consistent unlike frostfire >.> although some may argue consistently bad. roll on the patch, for being a maths/formula geek i have been studying (and loving) bink's work for a while, pat on the back good sir!

brb spreadsheet

Brgid · 12/28/08, 7:43 AM

Originally Posted by Kishkegelt

No, my earlier post would underestimate the value of this trinket if Manpile is right that there is no 2.5sec wait to acquire charges 2, 3, and 4, or that its damage may be enhanced by things like Earth and Moon.

You could then expect to get a Thunder charge off every 12-13 seconds even with low crit and haste, getting down to probably just over 10 seconds with 50% crit and haste, from the standard spell rotation. So that'd mean an effective EP range between 153 and 185, basically.

That's still not enough to replace the best trinkets in the game, but it's leaving out a lot of upside factors:

1. Lightning Overload

2. Bloodlust

3. Elemental Mastery

4. Damage buffs (Manpile can you confirm what buffs affect it?)

5. Chain Lightning sometimes seems to double-crit a single target, but I don't know if that's real

So, um, it might be much better than I previously said. I'm happy to model the above (except for chain lightning which I don't completely understand) if Manpile or anyone is clear on what, if anything, strengthens the damage on the proc. (Don't feel like getting very specific if it's still gonna be quite inaccurate).

I've just started levelling my shaman at the moment, so still using The Lightning Capacitor and have recent experience with it ...

There is a 2.5 second cooldown for acquiring charges after a discharge, not after acquiring a charge. You can discharge from a single CL with multiple crits. Crits from LO do seem to give charges in the normal way.

The bolt fired is affected by target debuffs (like Misery, E&M / Ebon Plague / CoE) but not by your own stats or talents. I strongly doubt it will be affected by our glyphs on that basis.

• Binkenstein · 12/28/08, 7:52 AM

Umm.... 3.1k would be about what I'd expect, even without looking at your gear. Upper max is somewhere in the 3.9k area, and that's only because of better gear and a shorter fight (more % time with heroism = higher dps figure).

slackiepop · 12/28/08, 10:00 AM

well, me too, however i was trying to see where the differences were between me and:

Originally Posted by Radek125

I have 1951 spell power(with FT), 26% crit, 329 haste, 268 hit + [Snapper Extreme] = 308 hit rating and I am unable to get beyond 2300 dps on Patchwerk 25 man. I've done a few simulations, and they all say that I should be much higher dmg with my gear. Logic leads me to believe there is something wrong with my rotation but I am doing the standard rotation talked about here. FS LvB LB LB LB LB CL repeat. I still use CL because otherwise there is time lost in between casts. (I adjust this as needed based on haste and gdc timers)

since i cant see a lot.

naturally it goes to reason that with a shorter fight and cooldowns/hero being up for longer gives increased dps- im not that naive

Mmootimus · 12/28/08, 12:11 PM

Originally Posted by slackiepop

what im wondering is, how are people structuring their dps- are you trying to fit in a set rotation and therefore casting one too many LB/CL, letting FS fall off and non critting on LvB? i would ask if im getting lucky, but i repeated at 3k again today on archavon (hardest boss ingame trustori) or maybe i was just lucky twice- although i did get misses today as per no boomkin. My stats overall put me ~2% crit behind, 70 haste ahead and approximately on a par spellpower with radek125 who mentions being unable to break 2300dps- this isn't a flame in the slightest, im just wondering where the 7-800 dps difference has come from? rng?

i guess in the midst of everyone giving a good old whinge about elemental dps, im really not finding it that bad at all

Firstly, the whole point of a set rotation is that what you describe regarding missed LvBs crits and FlS falling off does not happen. I realise that priority rotations are apparently better, but one thing a set rotation has in its favour is that its harder to slip up with casts (not that I think its too hard to do either way).

As for DPS, I was doing 2.8k DPS on my first ever Naxx25 run, where I had about 3 L80 epics, and a load of blues and BT/SWP gear. With FT and ToW we naturally start off with good baseline DPS. The problem - which 3.08 should go some way towards alleviating - is scaling. Once we start to get to best in slot T7 gear Ele is already noticeably falling behind. From personal experience, I have seen my DPS go up by 200-300 a week recently, but I have still been slipping lower and lower in the dmg meters.

I think to sum it up, you are playing the character at least moderately well, whilst - without being nasty - those unable to get near 3K DPS are either very undergeared or doing something very wrong.

Radek125 · 12/28/08, 12:32 PM

I run naxx 25 every week, I'll get a parse for you guys next Tuesday as last Tuesday's Patchwerk got corrupted by a zone crash. Here is last weeks Anub'Rekhan parse WOW Meter Online - The Best World of Warcraft Combat Log Analyse System!Fully support Wrath of the Lich King!

Last night I did Arch 25 and had 2350 dps on him according to recount. Horrible dps for my gear level. The one thing I did notice is that my dps time is not as high as other dps classes. They maintain about 95-98% while I am about 90-95%. This is an obvious area for improvement.

I've given up on a set rotation as totems and various other things cause issues in favor of just watching my timers and using the appropriate spell as needed. Often enough I end up doing the same rotation anyways.

Lastly, I think it's worth mentioning that my wow raid experience goes back to MC days so while "sucking" may be the case I'm looking at every option=) I appreciate people's honesty, Thanks.

slackiepop · 12/28/08, 3:34 PM

well the thing that jumps out at me immediately is that you have misses, and non crit LvBs.

i took myself to a dummy (not the boss level one, as i wouldnt be capped) to have a look at some numbers myself. i know this is only recount but it cant be far off correct.

ImageShack - Image Hosting :: wowscrnshot122808191853xs6.jpg

another thing which alarms me is that my time frame is just over 2 minutes, while yours is 3. in this time we threw off the same amount of LvB, which to me seems wrong. appreciatively anubrekan requires moving to an extent, but the dps downtime on the boss can be transferred to the adds, and even if it wasnt i dont think the time for locust swarm would mean you missed out on casting LvB that many times.

i didnt use hero here, but i did use EM and my trinket. i realise that my chains were hitting the other dummy and should have probably used just LB, but force of habit. I did stop casting CL after a certain point, as it just thought it would make my results seem overly bias- and i didnt use WS as i wanted a short sample to try and match yours. my main point is that you seem to be missing opportunities to dps. my damage numbers for LvB even are quite a lot higher than yours, and my flameshock cast numbers are a lot lower- what glyphs are you using?

Mmootimus · 12/28/08, 5:18 PM

Originally Posted by Radek125

I run naxx 25 every week, I'll get a parse for you guys next Tuesday as last Tuesday's Patchwerk got corrupted by a zone crash. Here is last weeks Anub'Rekhan parse WOW Meter Online - The Best World of Warcraft Combat Log Analyse System!Fully support Wrath of the Lich King!

Last night I did Arch 25 and had 2350 dps on him according to recount. Horrible dps for my gear level. The one thing I did notice is that my dps time is not as high as other dps classes. They maintain about 95-98% while I am about 90-95%. This is an obvious area for improvement.

I've given up on a set rotation as totems and various other things cause issues in favor of just watching my timers and using the appropriate spell as needed. Often enough I end up doing the same rotation anyways.

Lastly, I think it's worth mentioning that my wow raid experience goes back to MC days so while "sucking" may be the case I'm looking at every option=) I appreciate people's honesty, Thanks.

- As already noted your use of Lava Burst is poor. You don't cast it often enough, and you don't always crit with it. In theory and with a perfect rotation you could manage 22 Lava Bursts in 3 minutes. Something around 18 is a good point to aim for (6 per min). You are only casting it every 14 seconds.
I suggest maybe going to a set rotation for a while at least, as based on that you are making a big mess of trying to watch timers.
- Don't know if its your PVP gear, but your meta-gem is wrong, and will cost you a fair bit of DPS.
- Why no points in Call of Flame - no excuse for that really.
- You aren't hit-capped
- Your gear generally isn't too bad, but your weapon and especially your relic need an upgrade.

I am sure those more knowledgeable than me can come up with more.

Radek125 · 12/28/08, 11:18 PM

Originally Posted by Mmootimus

- As already noted your use of Lava Burst is poor. You don't cast it often enough, and you don't always crit with it. In theory and with a perfect rotation you could manage 22 Lava Bursts in 3 minutes. Something around 18 is a good point to aim for (6 per min). You are only casting it every 14 seconds.
I suggest maybe going to a set rotation for a while at least, as based on that you are making a big mess of trying to watch timers.
- Don't know if its your PVP gear, but your meta-gem is wrong, and will cost you a fair bit of DPS.
- Why no points in Call of Flame - no excuse for that really.
- You aren't hit-capped
- Your gear generally isn't too bad, but your weapon and especially your relic need an upgrade.

I am sure those more knowledgeable than me can come up with more.

My pure pve spec listed in a previous post has Call of Flame. The meta gem is for pvp set.

As far as glyphs I'm using.

[Glyph of Water Mastery] - [Glyph of Flametongue Weapon] - [Glyph of Lava]

Thanks for the tip with Lava Burst. I will focus on getting a rotation down on a target dummy tonight and hopefully have some better results Tuesday in Naxx.

Mmootimus · 12/28/08, 11:23 PM

Originally Posted by Radek125

My pure pve spec listed in a previous post has Call of Flame. The meta gem is for pvp set.

As far as glyphs I'm using.

[Glyph of Water Mastery] - [Glyph of Flametongue Weapon] - [Glyph of Lava]

Thanks for the tip with Lava Burst. I will focus on getting a rotation down on a target dummy tonight and hopefully have some better results Tuesday in Naxx.

Not using Glyph of Flame Shock is a pretty colossal mistake, and would also explain your rotation problems.

slackiepop · 12/28/08, 11:50 PM

[Glyph of Flame Shock]

should actually cure your problems as mentioned above.

you wont need to use so many GCDs on flameshock (which using it so much will lower your dps anyway, hence with the glyph you just refresh it) its charge is not consumed so you can easy get two casts of LvB off and spam LB/CL (if mana allows) meantime. i generally throw a CL in if i see my LvB is going to be off cooldown soon before the cast of LB would finish making a "rotation" a bit shorter.

let us know how you get on

Twistedtotem · 12/29/08, 1:10 PM

Here's my WWS for patchwerk over the last 3 weeks. This is with 5/5 T7. Only 2 pieces of it from 25.
Keep in mind last night we had alot of lag and I still managed about 3400 on him.
Wow Web Stats

Wow Web Stats

Wow Web Stats

The typical stand and spray fights for me are really hard on mana still with CL in the rotation unless we have a ret pally. Sadly 2 Ret Pallys are now DKs but oh well.