using the EP of 1.67 for hit for Blood and 1.53 for haste the Comet's Trail (assuming both are active 1/5 of the time) they are about equal
Edit: "Update - Inner Sanctum killed Algalon-25 and got a new item : Comet's Trail (Trinket - Phys.DPS). According to Karlita who got the trinket the haste bonus isn't 612 as stated in the tooltip but 726. "
using the EP of 1.67 for hit for Blood and 1.53 for haste the Comet's Trail (assuming both are active 1/5 of the time) they are about equal
Edit: "Update - Inner Sanctum killed Algalon-25 and got a new item : Comet's Trail (Trinket - Phys.DPS). According to Karlita who got the trinket the haste bonus isn't 612 as stated in the tooltip but 726. "
that makes CT better then BotOG
Even before, your EP for haste is way too low. I'm assuming you ripped that value straight out of an EP Sim calc. It has been shown many times that haste EP does not progress linearly, thus you must perform some form of regression on multiple data sets to obtain an accurate value for haste. I believe the graph I saw valued Haste at about 1.7-1.8.
Using the haste EP value straight from your latest sim is not accurate unless you can somehow increase haste single points at a time and then re-sim.
And for this reason, I'm hesitant to value the haste proc on this tricket very high.
Tests have shown that as little at .25% haste is enough to bump the value of haste to near or over 2.0EP from a low haste EP (say 1.3ish). What this means is that with this trinket haste will jump from that low value to the high value many times if you added the total rating piece by piece. Essentially you can use the average EP value for haste for most of the trinket's proc value and only have to consider a lower (or higher depending on the case) EP value for the remaining bit of the trinket proc value.
Tests have shown that as little at .25% haste is enough to bump the value of haste to near or over 2.0EP from a low haste EP (say 1.3ish).
But a tiny amount of haste can also drop the value of haste to around 1.3-1.5. Personally, I'm sitting at just under 21% haste, with an EP value of 2.65. The sim shows that going over 22% will drop the EP for haste down to around 1.4, and it seems to stay low for a while (I tested up to 28% I think). Logic would say that whenever this trinket procs, the total value of the proc will go down quite a bit (for me at least). But I'm not really sure if that's the case.
But a tiny amount of haste can also drop the value of haste to around 1.3-1.5. Personally, I'm sitting at just under 21% haste, with an EP value of 2.65. The sim shows that going over 22% will drop the EP for haste down to around 1.4, and it seems to stay low for a while (I tested up to 28% I think). Logic would say that whenever this trinket procs, the total value of the proc will go down quite a bit (for me at least). But I'm not really sure if that's the case.
But that's the whole point. If you move say .5 and it drops your EP to 1.3, then move another .5 and it bumps your EP to 2.2 then if you increase your haste by 1%, that haste rating is worth about 1.75EP. Basically, every drop is matched by a peak. The only issue is if you have an odd number of peaks and valleys, then obviously the EP will be affected accordingly. I've seen no evidence that haste EP permanently drops past 20%.
That's assuming the value per haste remains constant over longer-ranged averaging, which is faulty considering GCD limitations (MW) and WF dps loss. There is no mechanic that boosts haste's value such as a newly available rotation at a certain level. With higher values, haste's value decreases over the long term.
That's assuming the value per haste remains constant over longer-ranged averaging, which is faulty considering GCD limitations (MW) and WF dps loss. There is no mechanic that boosts haste's value such as a newly available rotation at a certain level. With higher values, haste's value decreases over the long term.
There is no WF DPS loss. WF dps simply is consistent and not affected by haste at high levels. The % of your damage that is WF damage may go down, but that's only because the rest of your damage is going up. Shamans are not going to hit GCD cap with the amount of haste available so I'm not sure why you even raised that point. If you're suggesting that we will start procing 5x Maelstrom in 1 GCD, then I'm not really sure what to say. With our current Maelstrom ppm sitting around 12 we'd need more haste to reach that than to GCD spell cap.
Once WF's % of damage stops increasing with haste, it still affects the following: Static shock proc, Maelstrom procs, white damage, flametongue damage, ES and LB GCD, and also wolves damage (when that pet fix goes through).
I'll run some very granular sims with high haste (40%+) and post the results.
You misunderstood the meaning of GCD limitations: the amount of actual time it takes between the swing (hit) that procs MW and the actual casting of MW5_LB (by the player) is not affected by haste, because haste does not affect our GCD nor latency/reaction time. That is the limiting factor to haste's DPS benefit. Obviously it still increases white and automatically proccing (flametongue, SS) dps (it's not worthless), but it doesn't apply its full value as haste increases because the player and the reality of the GCD prevents it. In other words, we start losing potential MW procs after the 5th stack because of the GCD and latency. Because of this, the value of each point of haste decreases as total haste increases.
And yes, we're obviously not to the point in haste where we could conceivably drop something from our priority list due to GCD packing (such as LL), otherwise it really would be a BiS stat.
There is no WF DPS loss. WF dps simply is consistent and not affected by haste at high levels.
This is only true at large (35%+) levels of haste (I have the graph around here somewhere...) because the WF dps takes that long to converge; before that, the perturbations are quite significant, easily +-20% about the average, where it converges to a PPM solution. This has been discussed at length in the enhsim thread as well.
You misunderstood the meaning of GCD limitations: the amount of actual time it takes between the swing (hit) that procs MW and the actual casting of MW5_LB (by the player) is not affected by haste, because haste does not affect our GCD nor latency/reaction time.
It does affect our GCD, though, by shortening it on Shocks and MW-cast spells. If you hit MW5 while on the GCD from those, more haste will allow you to spend the stacks sooner, which of course leads to building up stacks sooner. If you were consistently able to hit MW5 during the GCDs of previous LBs, then stacking more haste would greatly increase the contribution of LB to your overall DPS until your spell GCD hits the floor of 1 second, not to mention auto/FT/Static even past that level. You then run into the problem of losing potential MW stacks to the GCD of Stormstrikes, but it's possible you wouldn't even need them if you could cap your spell GCD (8 LBs in 8 seconds > 1 SS + 6 LBs).
The GCD reduction on dps lost would be dependent on server lag and capacity to react to the proc (which should be relatively good once you get practice). With cluttered our GCD dps rotation can get with things running into each other (SS on an 8, ES on a 5/6, LL on a 6) pushing it down with the haste would be beneficial (especially when the haste itself contributes to an increased need for shorter GCD's) . Now to just toy with haste so that (with raid buffs) your average hasted speed stays at a 'happy' number for weapon speed WF interactivity
I for one run on a Mac and I don't have the sim available to me, to decide which trinkets may be best for ME. I currently run with Bandits+mirror, but I have Grim'tol. I have absolutely no luck with drops, pretty much sums up why the only piece out of uld. I have is conq legs. But im wondering how good Grim is if I only have 37 passive ArP rating...
Also a quick question pertaining to haste's new EP value...how good is it now, considering I've seen many Ulduar Hard-mode equipped shamans socketing for it, as well as half Ulduar 10/25 geared shamans gearing for it and I can't sim my own EP values, I can tell you right now I only run with about 126 haste. Is there a certain point haste is more beneficial than socketing with pure AP(I.e: 4100 AP+ unbuffed, along with at least 200 haste). I can't find much info on this and can't find my own values so I'm turning to you guys for help. Thanks.
Haste does go up in value when you acquire the 4set bonus from t8, however I don't know if it ever gets better than pure AP (I've never simmed it and gotten a value over 2)
Haste does go up in value when you acquire the 4set bonus from t8, however I don't know if it ever gets better than pure AP (I've never simmed it and gotten a value over 2)
It does, it's definitely discussed in a few other threads on this forum. Many shamans are simming haste values of 2.5+. It's value fluctuates greatly though. I'm currently simming a value for haste of 2.79, if I add literally half a haste gem to my gear, it drops to 1.6.
Edit: Actually I said it on this very page. Scroll up buddy.
I ran multiple sims testing different variations of AP and Haste, with a few modifying crit for good measure. Everytime I ran a sim, pure AP came out the winner. It was always very close, but AP came out ahead (Crit had an EP of 1.8ish and Haste of 1.7ish)
However, I wanted to run a test through a non-hard mode run of Ulduar, the same run my guild did last week. The only change on my end was that I swapped out all my gems to maximize haste. It ended up changing 192 AP for 96 Haste.
On nearly every fight there was a DPS increase of at least 400. On Hodir my dps went from ~7100 to ~8100, XT it went from ~7500 to ~8100, and so on. I have not had time to look in depth at the differences in raid composition, but off the top of my head I cannot remember any major changes. Even looking at the overall kill damage, my dps was increased across all boss kills by ~500.
I understand that it is common practice to sim everything a million times and to play it safe, especially with the visitors of this site, but as we are on the topic of haste I encourage you to swap out your gems and try it for one raid.
No love for Living Flame
Binds when picked up
Unique
Trinket
Requires Level 80
Equip: Improves hit rating by 107
Use: Increases spell power by 505 for 20 sec.\?
No love for Living Flame
Binds when picked up
Unique
Trinket
Requires Level 80
Equip: Improves hit rating by 107
Use: Increases spell power by 505 for 20 sec.\?
Spellpower is worth ~1EP meaning that trinket gives roughly the same amount of dps as the [Meteorite Whetstone].
and you then miss the fact that it has 107 hit, that let's you drop hit from nearly every item slot.
This is true, but I doubt hit is a problem for any t7+ geared shaman. I currently am using two +hit trinkets (Pyrite Infuser and Elemental Focus Stone) with no +hit gems or enchants and could easily drop one without going under spell hit cap (probably both assuming spriest or boomkin is in raid). Of course, hit is still a good stat even after the spell hit cap so it doesn't worry me.
The other thing is (in my experience at least), on-use trinkets tend to have less real-world value than proc trinkets. With a use trinket you really have two options: either use it with bloodlust/wolves/burn phases, which means you are getting the most out of each CD but letting its ability rot while waiting on other factors, or use it every CD which means the chance of it being up during the best times is pretty low. On the other hand, proc trinkets with ICDs of 45 sec are nearly always up for at least part of those crucial times but also keep itself on ICD.
I have been reading and following these threads for many months. I do pretty good DPS for an enhancement shaman and as a serious raider am always looking for ways to maximize my DPS. I do have my four-piece bonus from t8 and about half of BiS possible gear. I have been running Enhsim and much like the aforementioned posts my dps gained from each percent of haste varies. My position of geming has always been stack straight AP. However, to test the theory stated by Spectras I am going to switch out all of my AP gems for Haste gems which will change my stats as follows. AP from 4286 to 4060 (-226) change and for haste I will go from from 400 to 525 (+125). Not sure what percentage haste this will move me to but I am currently at 15.86%. According to this post, Haste - WoWWiki - Your guide to the World of Warcraft, it takes 32.79 haste rating for 1%. Thus, by gaining 125 rating I gain 3.81%. The final stat change is losing 226 ap to gain 3.81% haste. Moving my stats from 4286 and 15.86% to 4060 and 19.67%. I will compare/ contrast my DPS from last week to this week. And see what kind of number changes there is. Any thought?
Frilo, I did the same thing. However you should know that in 3.1 the amount of haste rating required for 1% haste for Shamans was lowered to 25.21. Plug this number into your math, but I still encourage you to try swapping out your gems. I too was once gemming for full AP and it always simmed out higher. Then I tried it.
I'm very curious to see what kind of results you get to judge whether it is a serious fault in the sim.
Interesting theory, but wouldn't that put haste slightly higher than hit? The GCD reduction on LB and ES can certainly make a difference at hight haste values.
The only thing missing from this analysis is the interaction between the Windfury internal cooldown and haste / haste procs. The internal cooldown is 3s on average, but it varies. The only way to approximate the effect of a given value of haste on dps is with simulution. However, using that simulated contribution to predict the value of a different value of haste is problematic, so many of us have recommended estimating an average EP value for haste when comparing gear. Your approach (haste EP ~ hit EP past cap) seems rigorous.
Given stat points to spend only on haste and hit, you should prefer to keep them in some approximate ratio (I'm not sure what it is precisely but that's beside the point). When you're right on the ratio, allocating a point to one or the other doesn't matter; they will have the same EP.
However when you stray from that ratio, you will want to increase the one that gets you back there. For example if you haste:hit = 3:2 ideally, but your current ratio is 2:1, you should favor hit. This will also be reflected as a difference in EP.
For your example, perhaps 1:1 is the ratio you want. So rather than going 400:600 or 600:400, you might want to go 500:500.
06/12/09, 1:33 PM
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