The problem with using ilevel to evaluate trinkets is that it does not take into account 'on use' vs 'chance to proc'. I would say the 13 EP value deficit you have identified is more than made up by the ability to control the trinket proc. The DPS bonus of having our trinkets up during Dogs/BL/certain dmg amplifying buffs (Rune of Power, Heart etc) is significant.
Did I miss something or is it just another example of bad itemization?
Did a bit more resarch, according to the 6th comment here it seems that the diffrence between on-use trinkets to proccing ones, aside from the longer duration over twice the CD, is that on-use trinkets receive 0.67 value of proccing ones (at least for AP bonuses), so a similar proc to [Blood of the Old God] for on-use trinkets should be ~860 AP, so the [Mark of Supremacy] is about 19% stronger, add to that the bonus hit (~18.5% extra) and it seems like a pretty major upgrade on paper.
Only question now is if it realy translates into higher DPS in-game or does the 0.67 modifier to AP makes it equal or worse. Anyone has data about this diffrences (proc vs on-use), something comparing [Loatheb's Shadow] to [Mirror of Truth] would probably be best since the static bonus and ilvl are the same...
On a side note, how would be best to sync the on-use effect with our other abilities? might be problematic since the trinket has 2 minutes cooldown and our wolves (as well as troll's berserking for that matter) are on a 3 minute cooldown... any thoughts?
On a side note, how would be best to sync the on-use effect with our other abilities? might be problematic since the trinket has 2 minutes cooldown and our wolves (as well as troll's berserking for that matter) are on a 3 minute cooldown... any thoughts?
The answer to that would be totally dependent on total fight time, take a uld fight like XT hardmode which lasts about 9 minutes with FS and other cooldows (inc heroism) used about a minute or so in. At that time, use the 2 min trinket aswell as FS, then trinket 2 minutes later on the second it goes out of cooldown, then FS on the second they come out of cooldown 1 minute later. 2 minutes after that you'll have both up at the same time again.
In a shorter fight, say Ignis with a decent grp, you got a fight that lasts about 3:30, meaning you can get FS in at the very start with trinket but you will not be able to squeeze in 3 trinket uses in that fight so you're better of waiting with using the trinket the second time until FS comes up again.
Most fights will see usage of both of these variants if they are long (in the end you might wait a minute with the trinket to use it one last time with FS if you aint gonna get another trinket usage squeezed into that fight).
It could be possible to make an updated version of the enhancement shaman trinkets spreadsheet? I have used this version untill now, but now with the new patch is outdated. Enhancement_Trinkets_v1.03
Zomghax hasn't posted for a few months, and unfortunately his spreadsheet is protected so I cannot edit it to update. I do have an older spreadsheet that doesn't have nearly as many fancy drop downs, etc that I can modify (Utters originally did it). One thing his spreadsheet seemed to lack was any SP based trinkets however.
I PM'd Zomghax to see if he's around, but if we don't hear back from him in a week or two, I may just revise the old ghetto spreadsheet and post it up. The biggest thing will be the formulas, but it appears many of the trinkets use existing formulas so that should make matters relatively easy.
Any new trinket formulas, please post them here so they can be incorporated.
I think [Fetish of Volatile Power] is being undervalued especially when it comes to simming. While flametongue and lava lash do not proc it, Wind Shear does, this allows us to get in a few extra stacks. In practice, I was able to get it to the full 8 stacks with at least 10 seconds remaining a significant percentage of the time.
Zomghax pm'd me and said he'd forward his spreadsheet on to me (unprotected), so I will take a stab at updating it once I get it. Once I start updating info, I'll get some preliminary formulas updated on the first page, and I will use the current BiS Thread's EP values as samples.
I'll try and touch base with the enh sim folks to make sure that trinket spreadsheet formulas and sim formulas match as well.
Yesterday in 10 man TotC I got the trinket [Vengeance of the Forsaken] and I got a chance to play with it for a bit. The trinket itself definately isn't the best you can get but there might be some people wondering if it could be an upgrade for them or for their alt.
I bound the trinket to my Stormstrike (/startattack, /use trinket, /cast stormstrike) and when I start the fight only using stormstrike will get me 4 stacks instantly. Stormstrike then earthshock basicly gets the max of 5 stacks going meaning you got around 18 seconds of 1075ap. I was really surprised it stacked so fast especially since a Deathknight on wowhead claimed his dual wield abilities only got 1 stack up.
If using the trinket gets you exactly at the expertise cap I think this trinket is not as bad as most would think. An upgrade to mirror of truth and fury of the five flights in odd minute fights (1 minute, 3 minutes, 5 minutes etc.) at least and a good alternative to +hit trinkets when your spellhit capped, especially with expertise simming high before you hit the cap. I estimate the AeP value around 341 (83*2 + 1053/6 = 341 AeP) - 415 (83*2 + 3159/13)
However if your enhancement shaman is your main and you are playing endgame content everything in Ulduar is probably a much bigger upgrade.
My alt Shaman picked it up too (replaced Fury of the Five Flights) and I was pleasantly surprised at it. Like you I noticed very rapid stacking. Once even 5 stacks at once (WF procced I believe). And it let me get rid of some crap leather with Expertise (still need to get rid of 5 more though).
A solid trinket when all you have is pretty much outdated.
That's exactly what I was thinking with it. I have just over 100 expertise rating in gems, and am still using a Mirror, so in my case it's a big upgrade. If I were to get a hold of an OH axe to fully activate the Orc racial (or you know, a non-200 trinket), that would change things. It should also be noted that the heroic version has the same amount of expertise on it, but the AP use is 250 per stack instead of 215, so the higher item budget isn't just more expertise that would likely put you over cap.
That's exactly what I was thinking with it. I have just over 100 expertise rating in gems, and am still using a Mirror, so in my case it's a big upgrade. If I were to get a hold of an OH axe to fully activate the Orc racial (or you know, a non-200 trinket), that would change things. It should also be noted that the heroic version has the same amount of expertise on it, but the AP use is 250 per stack instead of 215, so the higher item budget isn't just more expertise that would likely put you over cap.
You could also try to use the sim to determine what expertise's value is to get the offhand capped and then realize that it is only about 1. Which is a lower EP value then any of our other rating options. Then you would start swapping out some of those expertise gems for AP gems until your mainhand is capped with the Orc racial. Then the trinket could be used to replace all your other expertise gems but that still leaves you over the mainhand cap meaning a good chunk of it is only worth 1 EP. Problem is the 40 expertise on your gloves since that plus the expertise on the trinket puts you significantly over the mainhand cap. Problem gets worse with the T9 gloves since they have even more expertise on them.
Long story shortened, that trinket is a PoS that is only good for tanks (and even then not so good compared to other tanking options).
*For those who are going to point out that I am running with the same amount of expertise at the moment, mine is not by choice. I don't have a single expertise gem in place and I am hoping to be able to shed some of mine soon through upgrades.
You could also try to use the sim to determine what expertise's value is to get the offhand capped and then realize that it is only about 1. Which is a lower EP value then any of our other rating options. Then you would start swapping out some of those expertise gems for AP gems until your mainhand is capped with the Orc racial. Then the trinket could be used to replace all your other expertise gems but that still leaves you over the mainhand cap meaning a good chunk of it is only worth 1 EP. Problem is the 40 expertise on your gloves since that plus the expertise on the trinket puts you significantly over the mainhand cap. Problem gets worse with the T9 gloves since they have even more expertise on them.
Long story shortened, that trinket is a PoS that is only good for tanks (and even then not so good compared to other tanking options).
*For those who are going to point out that I am running with the same amount of expertise at the moment, mine is not by choice. I don't have a single expertise gem in place and I am hoping to be able to shed some of mine soon through upgrades.
As a Draenei it's not that horrible as a trinket. Granted there are better ones you can get, ie Death's Choice + Comet's Trail. But if you have only t9.3 Gloves giving you expertise and that trinket it will put you at 26/26 142 Expertise Rating. If you have top tier t9 it'd be 27/27 151 Expertise Rating.
I'd probably use it for a bit since I have the Heroic version of it, if I got my rid of my second ring, shoulders, and offhand weapon making it to where my t9.3 gloves the only other piece with expertise on it.
[e] Hmm seems armory has me with it on right now. Must of not switched back to my normal trinket for that slot before I logged. My normal trinkets are BotOG and PI.
Well for me this really worked out to be a great transitional trinket. (btw: I got [Victor's Call]) Currently I am in a mix of 7.5, 8, and one 9. I am a a JC, so without this trinket I had to use all 3 of my JC only gems to be expertise to reach cap. Now that I use this trinket, I can fill those 3 gem slots with 3 x 68 AP = 204 AP! I've macro'd the on use to stormstrike and it does stack very very quickly. With these changes I have noticed a very nice dps increase.
I Currently debating whether to pick up [Vanquished Clutches of Yogg-Saron] or [Dark Matter] I cant figure out which is better as i do not have any hard data on the tentacle besides that the crit comes out to ~244 EP for myself and the AP from [Dark Matter] is 222.
Does anyone have some Concrete data on the damage output of the tentacle?
I just got mine yesterday and did some quick damage testing with it. Basically on the heroic dummy I was getting about 300DPS consistently while it's up. It has 33.333333% uptime so about 100DPS. I'll be looking more deeply at raid combat logs to get an idea of how debuffs affect it.
The biggest issue I found with the tentacles is that their attacks can be dodged as well as miss since they don't carry your expertise and hit. This is seriously detrimental to the constrictor as it can result in the bleed stack dropping which absolutely destroys its DPS.
The tentacle does not seem to gain any sort of buffs as it was not picking up my totems.
I'm going to do some testing later today to see if the corrupter eats up SS charges (since it belongs to the shaman it might).
A question: Is data such as a mob's damage range and swing speed available in the MPQ files?
I'm browsing this forum on regular basis and its really helpful but now i cant find any info about [Shard of the Crystal Heart]
i tried comparison in RAWR but the use effect is just not there(so its not counted for EP )
i was trying to run tests vs [Mark of Supremacy] and it gave me a little better dps - more or less 100 dps difference
I'm browsing this forum on regular basis and its really helpful but now i cant find any info about [Shard of the Crystal Heart]
i tried comparison in RAWR but the use effect is just not there(so its not counted for EP )
i was trying to run tests vs [Mark of Supremacy] and it gave me a little better dps - more or less 100 dps difference
Basically the two trinkets are the same, only difference is that [Shard of the Crystal Heart] on-use effect is 512 haste vs [Mark of Supremacy] 1024 AP. 2 AP are usually worth more then 1 haste, but even if you do reach EP value of 2+ for haste I believe the AP effect will be better since you can sync it with wolves, granting them a nice AP boost, as opposed to the haste effect which won't benefit them at all (to my knowledge).
As for the tests you were doing, I'm assuming they were in-game. If so the DPS differences are probably due to procs such as Berserking or other trinkets.
Has anyone tested out [Pandora's Plea] for enhance dps? I'm a healer turned enhance and in my opinion, its a better trinket than some of the others I have accumulated. Any thoughts?
Has anyone tested out [Pandora's Plea] for enhance dps? I'm a healer turned enhance and in my opinion, its a better trinket than some of the others I have accumulated. Any thoughts?
Assuming the EP values in the default spreadsheet on the first page and using an EP of 1.43 for INT, Pandora's Plea has an approximate value of 328EP assuming a 45 ICD.
Zomghax hasn't posted for a few months, and unfortunately his spreadsheet is protected so I cannot edit it to update. I do have an older spreadsheet that doesn't have nearly as many fancy drop downs, etc that I can modify (Utters originally did it). One thing his spreadsheet seemed to lack was any SP based trinkets however.
I PM'd Zomghax to see if he's around, but if we don't hear back from him in a week or two, I may just revise the old ghetto spreadsheet and post it up. The biggest thing will be the formulas, but it appears many of the trinkets use existing formulas so that should make matters relatively easy.
Any new trinket formulas, please post them here so they can be incorporated.
Originally Posted by Mengus
Zomghax pm'd me and said he'd forward his spreadsheet on to me (unprotected), so I will take a stab at updating it once I get it. Once I start updating info, I'll get some preliminary formulas updated on the first page, and I will use the current BiS Thread's EP values as samples.
I'll try and touch base with the enh sim folks to make sure that trinket spreadsheet formulas and sim formulas match as well.
Excuse me Mengus,
it's a while from your last post here. May I kindly ask you whether you are still intersted in updating the trinket spreadsheet or somebody else has to PM Zomghax for receivng an unlocked version of the spreadsheet?
Was on vacation and just got back, but last I checked I didn't have the spreadsheet from him yet, though I did hear from him via PM.
I think I'll go back to the 'original' trinket spreadsheet, which, while not as fancy, essentially serves the same purpose, and nets the same results. I'll dig up the old one I had and get to work on it.
08/12/09, 9:37 PM
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