Enhancement Trinkets - Page 10

smalliam · 10/10/09, 6:15 PM

Is there a spreadsheet with the TOC trinkets as yet?

Extenze · 10/11/09, 12:17 AM

http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?k...FdlREckE&hl=en

This is mine.

Raiix - Myla · 10/13/09, 9:32 AM

thanks a lot for that! i need to value the new trinkets, but i'm not used to the formulas or uptimes etc. is there a way to see the formulas how the trinket value is calculated in your sheet?

some feedback:
wrong item link in line 3 and 7
please check your formulas for [Mark of Supremacy] and [Shard of the Crystal Heart], i got higher rating for [Mark of Supremacy] but my haste ep is bigger than 2
could you add vengance of the forsaken in the 232 and 245 version?

and a question:
can i wear [Pyrite Infuser] and [Blood of the Old God]? or do the proccs share the same cd?

Rouncer · 10/13/09, 9:50 AM

Originally Posted by Raiix - Myla

and a question:
can i wear [Pyrite Infuser] and [Blood of the Old God]? or do the proccs share the same cd?

You can definitely use both of those trinkets together. I just checked an older log from back when I used to use them together to confirm.

[19:53:09.640] Rouncer gains Blood of the Old God from Rouncer
[19:53:10.421] Rouncer gains Pyrite Infusion from Rouncer

EllissDee · 10/13/09, 11:22 AM

Originally Posted by Extenze

http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?k...FdlREckE&hl=en

This is mine.

It seems you have some of the trinkets calculating it's bonus based on the wrong AEP. I changed some of the formulas to point to the correct AEP cell it seemed to work. I do not know if the problem stems from my version of Excel (2007), or a problem with the original spreadsheet. Still, I am getting some different numbers than your spreadsheet gives me from some napkin math. For example, using 1.7 for Hit AEP:

Mark of Supremacy
215.9 (128*1.7) + 170.7 (1024*20/120) = 386.6

Pyrite Infuser
161.5 (95*1.7) + 248.6 (1234*10/50) = 408.3

Your spreadsheet gives me 388.27 and 435.72 for both, respectively. The first might be due to me rounding, but the second seems quite off.

Edit: Also, some items, such as Shard of the Crystal Heart and Mjolnir Runestone, are calculating the proc/on-use as AP and not haste/ArPen. I editted them to point to the correct stat, and am not getting some better results.

Quaglia · 10/13/09, 1:23 PM

Also, the formula for [Mjolnir Runestone] refers to the old incorrect tooltip, with just 612 ArP instead of 665. After reading also the above EllissDee post, guess it should be changed to: (102*E2)+(((665*E8)*10)/45) .
Anyway thanx for the update!

Extenze · 10/14/09, 10:01 PM

Thanks, should be fixed.

khardan · 10/27/09, 2:28 PM

Originally Posted by Extenze

Thanks, should be fixed.

Actually, still appears broken for me. Maybe I'm doing something wrong.

However, I went ahead and adjusted and verified the formulae and check all the values to make sure they are pointing to the right data and everything appears to be working now.

http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?k...qLTdMZmc&hl=en

Furthermore, I would love to maintain the list and I will keep it updated on a regular basis and encourage requests for other trinkets the enhancement community would like to see represented in the spreadsheet.

Big thanks to Extenze for getting this up (pun intended) and running again (I hope you don't mind that I kept your layout; it's easy on the eyes and well organized)

Levva · 10/27/09, 6:54 PM

I seriously believe this to be an entirely misguided endeavour. It is in the nature of trinkets to be variable dependant on what other gear you have it is simply not desirable to in any way shape or form rank them into some sort of fixed order as no such fixed order exists.

Any undertaking that aims to do this is in my opinion fatally flawed. The problem I have is that by posting such things on this forum it gains an air of respectability that it seriously doesn't deserve. And thus the clueless will say things like Trinket X is better than Y, it says so on the EJ forums. Of course they will be completely ignoring the fact that they aren't hit capped or expertise capped, have too much or too little haste or whatever.

What you should be directing your efforts to is understanding how trinkets interact with the other gear what the proc chances are what the uptimes are etc. Its possible using this methodology to state that Trinket A gives an average of X stat over the course of a typical length fight. It is not possible to then say that trinket A that gives X of one stat is better than trinket B that gives Y of a completely different stat.

PLEASE abandon the idea of trying to list trinkets in order it is unwise, out of date and a seriously BAD idea.

I would petition the forum mods to lock this thread before further damage is done.

Stopokingme · 10/27/09, 7:56 PM

Levva, it has EP values listed on the right, which are freely changeable if you save a copy after opening it, I don't really see all the harm in this simple spreadsheet.

Rani · 10/27/09, 8:06 PM

While using EP's to determine trinket value is far from being perfect, it does give us a good estimation of the trinket's power and it's usefulness compared to other trinkets; an estimation that is usually (at least for me) close to reality.

Levva · 10/28/09, 8:40 AM

Using EP to multiply up stats on an item is a really bad way of using EPs as EP values change as soon as you equip something new. That is my whole point. A spreadsheet that does this is highly misleading.

Instead you should sim each trinket given your current gear. You can even use Rawr and its optimiser to get a basic idea of trinket priorities and then confirming setups in EnhSim is far far far better than using EP values which have the potential to be seriously misleading.

eg: [Victor's Call] which grants expertise. This might be great IF you regem to prevent going over the expertise cap. However a simple multiply up on EPs will give very misleading results.

Long gone are the days when our EP values remained relatively constant over a whole tier range. Thus spreadsheets that assume the EP values remain constant over a change of gear should be long gone too.

Glayde · 10/28/09, 9:23 AM

But if you multiply on EP's it at least shows what you can do based on things such as regemming if that's an option for some people based on their gear. In many cases going over cap on one new item can simply be re-adjusted back down to ~cap by swapping out some current gems, which make the item a net gain, regardless of where you were relative to the cap before.

Anexor · 10/28/09, 10:18 AM

Originally Posted by Levva

eg: [Victor's Call] which grants expertise. This might be great IF you regem to prevent going over the expertise cap. However a simple multiply up on EPs will give very misleading results.

expertise is one of the stats that a enhancer should try to max out to its cap.
so you maybe want to recalculate its value through the gems you might use instead: 83exp ~ 20exp x4

4 sockets:
4x 40 AP = 160AP
or 4x 20 haste = 80haste

Levva · 10/28/09, 10:28 AM

Originally Posted by Glayde

But if you multiply on EP's it at least shows what you can do based on things such as regemming if that's an option for some people based on their gear. In many cases going over cap on one new item can simply be re-adjusted back down to ~cap by swapping out some current gems, which make the item a net gain, regardless of where you were relative to the cap before.

However precisely what EPs do you use to multiply with??? The values you currently have? The values after you have equipped the trinket? The values after you have equipped the trinket and removed the gems for over capping? The values after you have equipped the trinket and replaced the gems for overcapping?

If you don't realise that the result will be different depending which way you answer the questions above then you are failing to understand EP values.

Hint: Multiplying any stat by a static EP value will give very misleading results this is NOT a valid use of EP values. EP values should be used to give an indication in what direction your stats need to be rebalanced. They should NEVER be used to multiply up stats on an item to attempt to compare two things. Sadly that is what most people do because they don't know any better.

EP values are great when used correctly, using them to evaluate trinkets is NOT a good use.

Anexor · 10/28/09, 10:51 AM

Originally Posted by Levva

They should NEVER be used to multiply up stats on an item to attempt to compare two things.

Dont get me wrong, but the only purpose of the EP-system is for comparing items.
The EPs change after equiping that item and trinkets with their weird procs or on-use effects do have a higher impact on them - thats for sure.

Levva · 10/29/09, 7:48 AM

Originally Posted by Anexor

Dont get me wrong, but the only purpose of the EP-system is for comparing items.
The EPs change after equiping that item and trinkets with their weird procs or on-use effects do have a higher impact on them - thats for sure.

Seriously NO. The only purpose of the EP system is to make choosing which stat your gear favours easy. The multiplying thing has been valuable in the past however with haste particularly its become way way too unstable to be used for that purpose. Anyone who is using EPs to multiply up their gear as an Enhancement Shaman is potentially making very very poor choices.

TO ANY AND ALL READING THIS - BE WARNED THIS SPREADSHEET MAY HARM YOUR DPS, USE THE ENHSIM SIMULATOR INSTEAD.

Beercow · 10/29/09, 4:49 PM

I think this is a perfect time to remind people of the new graphing function you added to Rawr Levva. It's pretty great, especially now that you can see the rather extreme spikiness of haste.

Levva · 10/30/09, 7:58 AM

Originally Posted by Beercow

I think this is a perfect time to remind people of the new graphing function you added to Rawr Levva. It's pretty great, especially now that you can see the rather extreme spikiness of haste.

See my reply in the Rawr thread.

• Raut · 10/30/09, 10:50 AM

Originally Posted by Levva

Seriously NO. The only purpose of the EP system is to make choosing which stat your gear favours easy. The multiplying thing has been valuable in the past however with haste particularly its become way way too unstable to be used for that purpose. Anyone who is using EPs to multiply up their gear as an Enhancement Shaman is potentially making very very poor choices.

TO ANY AND ALL READING THIS - BE WARNED THIS SPREADSHEET MAY HARM YOUR DPS, USE THE ENHSIM SIMULATOR INSTEAD.

Yes and no, Levva. We've been over this numerous times already.

With your Rawr module (and EnhSim), using EP and sites like GuildOx - WoW Guild Progress and Loot Rankings is just fine and dandy. You don't have to loot everything based on EP, you can just pick items to simulate taken from multiplying EP like we did back in the day. Even items with haste. Sim your changes and viola - EP was used to create real numbers.

But yes, these static lists are probably a thing of the past.

Levva · 10/30/09, 11:27 AM

Originally Posted by Raut

Yes and no, Levva. We've been over this numerous times already.

With your Rawr module (and EnhSim), using EP and sites like GuildOx - WoW Guild Progress and Loot Rankings is just fine and dandy. You don't have to loot everything based on EP, you can just pick items to simulate taken from multiplying EP like we did back in the day. Even items with haste. Sim your changes and viola - EP was used to create real numbers.

But yes, these static lists are probably a thing of the past.

Hence the use of "MAY" in my quote. I seriously took on board your comments last time and after thinking about it for a bit came up with the new Rawr graphs. In the option panel "Basics" at the bottom is a button to display a graph this shows you in a very easy to see manner how adding (or subtracting) X of a stat will alter your dps. ie: its like having EP run not just for 1 fixed step (as per config) in a stat but for hundreds of different steps and then all graphed together.

Hopefully this new graph addresses your concern and does indeed give a very visual pointer to how differing stats will affect your dps at different values. Thus providing the "direction" feature of EP that would, as you rightly said, be a very bad loss if we were to ditch EP values entirely.

BTW Rawr & Enhsim are now matching dps very closely. I still have a few things to check but v2.2.25 is shaping up to be dramatically better than any previous versions.

Kyuuzo · 11/06/09, 4:27 AM

Well with out any maths and stuff, death's choice trinkets, seem to be the best, only with the right score of gear. But then again till you manage to get your hand on one of those trinkets, or even both, you will probably have the right gear to support them, and empower your dmg. Tho, till you get them mark of supremacy seems to be hax, especially when you can get it that easily. As for a second trinket, i am using the haste one from totc normal. It works fine for me, while i can't get a better one, since my guild does not raid Ulduar anymore. But i still have issues about haste stuff and such!

Quick question to lavva: I am using rawr a lot, does the hit stat evaluate the debuff from other players? Even tho i have lot of hit it shows me items with more hit, and makes me worry..

• Raut · 11/06/09, 9:37 AM

Death's Choice are actually trinkets are that truly great no matter what gear you are sporting. Comet's Trail is a situational trinket. It's good no matter what gear but it's part of a BiS set when haste becomes good. Death's Choice actually drops in value as Ag value diminishes in a near BiS set.

Levva · 11/06/09, 10:24 AM

Originally Posted by Kyuuzo

Well with out any maths and stuff, death's choice trinkets, seem to be the best, only with the right score of gear. But then again till you manage to get your hand on one of those trinkets, or even both, you will probably have the right gear to support them, and empower your dmg. Tho, till you get them mark of supremacy seems to be hax, especially when you can get it that easily. As for a second trinket, i am using the haste one from totc normal. It works fine for me, while i can't get a better one, since my guild does not raid Ulduar anymore. But i still have issues about haste stuff and such!

Quick question to lavva: I am using rawr a lot, does the hit stat evaluate the debuff from other players? Even tho i have lot of hit it shows me items with more hit, and makes me worry..

If you tick the buff/debuffs then it uses them. I'd agree that it still has a strongish desire towards hit rating, as I tweak things this has lessened but its still there to a lesser degree. I plan a thorough investigation of everywhere hit is used to see if there's any calcs that look odd but time isn't on my side. If only some other C# developer could assist me it would be really really appreciated.

Kyuuzo · 11/06/09, 1:17 PM

I see your point, and i trully apprericate all your effort and work. I just were kinda confused, because i am was pretty sure i was overhitcapped, not just hit capped, but rawr still kept showing me items that had hit rating and expertise rating gems. Another thing that crossed my mind some minutes ago, is that it occasionally shows you items that have 2 haste gems, which has happened very few times to me. Since haste is the new shit for most shamans, maybe you should think about it as well, giving more choices about haste gems on several items.

P.s: Has anyone done the maths, concerning the most suitable haste rating judging the inner WF CD? Because i have more than enough haste already, but it still troubles me if it synchronize correctly with my WF CD. Tho, everytime i check my dmg meter, my white dmg is way more than my WF, and not say my LB. As a conclusion, WF - LB - ES seem to be too overrated. Watching white dmg, being the 40%(maybe more, maybe less) of my dmg, when WF and other abilities are Enhancement shaman banner !! On vanilla, and later on at TBC, Shaman was all about WF, not to mention the very first WF totem..