Enhancement Glyphs a numeric comparison

Levva · 12/01/08, 7:22 AM

Toots suggests in the mega beta thread that the glyph priority order ought to be :

Glyph of Stormstrike > Glyph of Windfury Weapon > Glyph of Earth Shock > Glyph of Flametongue > Glyph of Lava Lash > Glyph of Lightning Shield

Edit: However recent testing suggests that ordering should be :

Glyph of Stormstrike, Glyph of Windfury Weapon - top tier

Glyph of Flametongue, Glyph of Lightning Shield - 2nd tier

Glyph of Shocking, Glyph of Lava Lash, Glyph of Lightning Bolt - third tier

I was thinking that we should get down to some proper number crunching and checking of the sim. It has been suggested that Lightning Shield (with talents in Static Shock) is actually far better than last place. The contention is :

check out how much DPS% people are getting from static shock (those who specc for it). Everyone is getting 5+%, right?

So what is 20% of that (LS glyph)? 1% of your DPS (can and will be more, but let's go from this).

In order for the WF glyph to be better, you mean that 500 AP windfury proccs would need to add more than 1% DPS. Considering this, and assuming that 500 AP is nothing more than 500/14 DPS on an attack that will procc at most 1 every 5 swings, applied over two attacks, that means you'll get before crits, armor and doges, reduction a maximum theoretical output of 21 DPS from that (after including elemental weapons). Let's imagine you're both hit capped and expertise capped, running at 30% crit. With the current estimates of 25% armor reduction post-debuffs that means 21 DPS

For that to be 1% of your DPS, then you can't be doing more than 2100 DPS. It's a fallacy, it's wrong, and can be easilly verified just by looking at wwses or by calculating from your base AP.

So I thought it would be useful to have a thread where we can debate ALL of the glyphs, preferably sorting out some sort of EP value for each, and thus provide solid info for the Think Tank. I am fairly confident that some will prove better with better gear etc, and I am aware that everyone can "just run the sim" however we should be wary of resorting to the sim as a final answer rather than basic theorycrafting and comparing that with the Sim and real raid testing to confirm our results.

Our theorycrafting and the sim both need to be refined in the light of what is actually in the game, comparing the various results only strengthens the argument that the outcome is solid and reliable, putting all our faith in the sim, whilst it is fantastic, is not the wisest course of action.

LazyJoe · 12/01/08, 8:06 AM

Theorycrafting the relative amount of dps gained from windfury glyph is quite easy, but I miss a few numbers (just hit 80 today).

So if we consider 4000 average ap raidbuffed in combat, with a 140 dps weapon (seems realistic numbers to me, but feel free to correct).

If we consider a regular white hit :
140 weapon dps = 1960 attack power, so we have an "equivalent ap" of 5960 (ie we would do the same amount of damage with a 0 dps weapon and 5960 ap).

A windfury proc adds 1125 ap, so it is equivalent to 7085 ap.

Now we add elemental weapons' bonus, it becomes 7085 * 1,40 = 9919 ap

So what would be the effect of the glyph ? It would add 450 ap to those 9919 "theoretical" ap

450/9919 = 0,045 = 4,5% more dps on windfury procs. This gain will decrease as your ap increase, with 5000 average ap it falls down to 4%, etc....

So this would mean we need to do 100 / 4,5 = 22% of our dps with windfury to get a 1% increase from the glyph. This seem pretty high to me if we use WF/FT.

One question remains : is the ap bonus from the glyph affected by elemental weapons ? In this case it would be a 630 ap bonus, which makes 6,3% more dps, and you would need only to do 16% of your dps with windfury to have a 1% gain.

Rouncer · 12/01/08, 5:05 PM

From my playing with the Sim.

Stormstrike Glyph beats everything.

Earth Shock Glyph would be the best second option except that it doesn't work as intended. Currently the GCD is capped at 1 second so the Glyph doesn't offer much improvement.

Lightning Shield > Windfury Weapon > Flametongue Weapon - But ">" is really only 1 to 2 dps (not percent, actual dps) so I am using WF and FT glyphs since if you ever switch to Water Shield the Lightning Shield glyph becomes worthless.

Utters · 12/01/08, 5:51 PM

Originally Posted by Rounced

From my playing with the Sim.

Stormstrike Glyph beats everything.

Earth Shock Glyph would be the best second option except that it doesn't work as intended. Currently the GCD is capped at 1 second so the Glyph doesn't offer much improvement.

Lightning Shield > Windfury Weapon > Flametongue Weapon - But ">" is really only 1 to 2 dps (not percent, actual dps) so I am using WF and FT glyphs since if you ever switch to Water Shield the Lightning Shield glyph becomes worthless.

I had the same results as Rounced. It was something in the neighborhood of SS-LS-WF @ 4002, SS-WF-FT @ 4001, and SS-LS-FT @ 3996. When I get home from work I can post my actual sim results. And I also came to the same conclusion that LS glyph is pointless when you need to switch to water shield for any reason which would close the 1 dps gap between SS-LS-WF and SS-FT-WF.

Rouncer · 12/01/08, 5:57 PM

Now if they actually manage to fix the Earth Shock glyph then we will have something to talk about.....<keeps fingers crossed>

Levva · 12/02/08, 7:41 AM

If windfury weapon is adding a flat 40% of the bonus AP ie: 500 AP on top of the 1250 AP from WF weapon. This suggests it doesn't scale with gear doesn't it or is the 40% of something else? Also I take it that it is +500 AP for two extra attacks and not on the original strike as well?

SpottedCowz · 12/02/08, 7:55 AM

Originally Posted by Levva

If windfury weapon is adding a flat 40% of the bonus AP ie: 500 AP on top of the 1250 AP from WF weapon. This suggests it doesn't scale with gear doesn't it or is the 40% of something else? Also I take it that it is +500 AP for two extra attacks and not on the original strike as well?

You only get the AP bonus on the 2 extra WF attacks, not on the original attack that procced it, so I can't see you getting a 40% bonus on your nil bonus. Of course, WF has always scaled poorly with gear, since the AP bonus is flat. That's why at high SW levels, you saw white damage becoming a bigger part of your damage than specials; WF doesn't scale as well as white hits do.

Pitbuller · 12/02/08, 8:06 AM

Originally Posted by SpottedCowz

You only get the AP bonus on the 2 extra WF attacks, not on the original attack that procced it, so I can't see you getting a 40% bonus on your nil bonus. Of course, WF has always scaled poorly with gear, since the AP bonus is flat. That's why at high SW levels, you saw white damage becoming a bigger part of your damage than specials; WF doesn't scale as well as white hits do.

It's has anything to do with ap bonus. Windfury scale well with all but hit(after yellow cap) and haste becouse there is 3second cd. Sunwell gear have lot of haste. Also sunwell demands haste drums and pots and bloodlust rotations. Ap bonus isn't big part of wf dps.

Levva · 12/02/08, 11:08 AM

There must be a point then where the value of LS glyph that will presumably scale with spellpower overtakes the value of Windfury weapon. Is it possible to calculate these values discretely? ie: come up with numerical dps equivalents for each and the amount of spell power required for LS to equal WF.

Rouncer · 12/02/08, 11:49 AM

Originally Posted by Levva

There must be a point then where the value of LS glyph that will presumably scale with spellpower overtakes the value of Windfury weapon. Is it possible to calculate these values discretely? ie: come up with numerical dps equivalents for each and the amount of spell power required for LS to equal WF.

It already overtakes it, although it has overtaken Flametongue by more.

Just that Lightning Shield loses all effectiveness the moment you have to use Water Shield because your mana is low and the overtaking aspect is by maybe 1-2 dps so it's really not worth it yet.

Once Dual Specs enter the game I will probably swap either the Windfury or the Flametongue glyph (depending on the Sim) for the LS glyph since I will have at least 2 piece T7 by then and they will work well together and if replenishment is available there won't be a need for Water Shield. Actually if they have Earth Shock glyph fixed by then I won't be using either the WF or the FT glyph for my raiding spec or even for my PvP spec either since for PvP I will use SS + ES + WS for the added regen and for PvE it will be SS + ES + LS to maximize damage output.

Triper · 12/02/08, 2:58 PM

Here are some comparison results from my downtime simming

Please note: The sim uses the un-bugged values for Glyph of Earth Shock. Windfury is probably the better choice until this is fixed.

My Config File:

simulation_time                 10000
simulation_time_combatlog       30
combat_length                   6
report_count                    80
threads                         2
min_lag                         200
max_lag                         250
simulate_mana                   1

ep_base_stat                    ap
ep_ap                           64
ep_crit_rating                  46
ep_hit_rating                   30
ep_expertise                    4
ep_haste_rating                 33
ep_armor_penetration_rating     15
ep_spellpower                   28
ep_dps                          10.0
ep_mana                         200
ep_spirit                       100
ep_mp5                          20

mh_auto_attack                  1
oh_auto_attack                  1
wait_ss_with_wf_cd              0
cast_ll_only_if_wf_on_cd        0
bloodlust_casters               2
sync_bloodlust_with_trinkets    0
cast_lvb_only_if_ed_left        15
cast_lvb_only_if_fsdots_left    4
cast_lvb_only_if_fs_active      1
cast_fs_only_if_dots_left       0
cast_ls_only_if_charges_left    1
cast_sr_only_if_mana_left       700
use_mana_potion_if_mana_left    3000

rotation_priority_count         7
rotation_priority1              MW5_LB
rotation_priority2              SS
rotation_priority3              ES
rotation_priority4              LL
rotation_priority5              LS
rotation_priority6              ST
rotation_priority7              SR

miss                            9.00
dodge                           6.50
glancing                        25.00
armor                           10850
spell_miss                      17.00
nature_resistance               0
fire_resistance                 0
frost_resistance                0
arcane_resistance               0
shadow_resistance               0

armor_debuff_major              3925/3925
armor_debuff_minor              1260/1260
physical_vulnerability_debuff   2.0/2.0
melee_haste_buff                20.0/20.0
melee_crit_chance_buff          5.0/5.0
attack_power_buff_flat          688/688
attack_power_buff_multiplier    99.7/99.7
spell_haste_buff                5.0/5.0
spell_crit_chance_buff          5.0/5.0
spell_crit_chance_debuff        10.0/10.0
spell_damage_debuff             13.0/13.0
spellpower_buff                 280/280
spell_hit_chance_debuff         3.0/3.0
haste_buff                      3.0/3.0
percentage_damage_increase      3.0/3.0
crit_chance_debuff              3.0/3.0
stat_multiplier                 10.0/10.0
stat_add_buff                   52/52
agi_and_strength_buff           178/178
intellect_buff                  60/60

replenishment                   1
water_shield                    0
mana_spring_totem               1
blessing_of_wisdom              1
judgement_of_wisdom             1

flask_elixir                    flask_of_endless_rage
guardian_elixir                 -
potion                          haste_potion
food                            fish_feast
misc_item                       -

###############################################################################
### Everything in the section below can be replaced by information obtained ###
### from your paper doll stats or exported by the ShockAndAwe addon         ###
###############################################################################

race                            draenei
mh_speed                        2.6
oh_speed                        2.6
mh_dps                          156.5
oh_dps                          143.5
mh_crit                         29.17
oh_crit                         29.17
mh_hit                          11.68
oh_hit                          11.68
mh_expertise_rating             32
oh_expertise_rating             32
ap                              3657
haste                           10.22
armor_penetration               0
str                             129
agi                             709
int                             482
spi                             153
spellpower                      1097
spell_crit                      22.84
spell_hit                       14.60
max_mana                        11346
mp5                             0

mh_imbue                        windfury
oh_imbue                        flametongue

mh_enchant                      -
oh_enchant                      -

mh_weapon                       -
oh_weapon                       -

trinket1                        grim_toll
trinket2                        mirror_of_truth

totem                           stonebreakers_totem

set_bonus                       -

metagem                         relentless_earthsiege_diamond

glyph_major1                    -
glyph_major2                    -
glyph_major3                    -

glyph_minor1                    -
glyph_minor2                    -
glyph_minor3                    -

ancestral_knowledge             4/5
improved_shields                3/3
mental_dexterity                3/3
shamanistic_focus               1/1
flurry                          5/5
elemental_weapons               3/3
unleashed_rage                  0/5
weapon_mastery                  3/3
dual_wield_specialization       3/3
mental_quickness                3/3
improved_stormstrike            2/2
static_shock                    3/3
maelstrom_weapon                5/5

convection                      0/5
concussion                      5/5
call_of_flame                   3/3
elemental_devastation           3/3
reverberation                   0/5
elemental_focus                 1/1
elemental_fury                  5/5
call_of_thunder                 0/1
unrelenting_storm               0/5
elemental_precision             0/3
lightning_mastery               0/5
elemental_oath                  0/2
lightning_overload              0/5
lava_flows                      0/3
storm_earth_and_fire            0/5

Baseline DPS (this is with no glyphs used):

                    DPS                 PPM       MPS
white               1805.82   35.15%    85.60
windfury            616.83    12.01%    6.10
flametongue         492.86    9.59%     49.44
stormstrike         300.31    5.84%     6.52      35.95     25.85%
lava lash           168.95    3.29%     7.74      15.58     11.21%
searing totem       341.49    6.65%     1.00      4.82      3.47%
earth shock         521.92    10.16%    8.32      34.35     24.70%
lightning bolt      699.72    13.62%    8.05      48.35     34.77%
lightning shield    190.19    3.7%      0.85      0.00      0.00%

DPS                 5138.09
MPS                 139.06
MP2min              16687.24
MRPS                139.67
Out of mana time    0.08%

elapsed simulation time: 10000.00h

Glyphs used: Windfury, Stormstrike, Lightning Shield

                    DPS                 PPM       MPS
white               1805.88   34.04%    85.60
windfury            649.24    12.24%    6.10
flametongue         492.82    9.29%     49.44
stormstrike         300.38    5.66%     6.52      35.95     25.86%
lava lash           168.95    3.18%     7.74      15.58     11.21%
searing totem       341.48    6.44%     1.00      4.82      3.47%
earth shock         556.69    10.49%    8.32      34.33     24.69%
lightning bolt      746.60    14.07%    8.05      48.35     34.78%
lightning shield    243.32    4.59%     0.85      0.00      0.00%

DPS                 5305.36
MPS                 139.03
MP2min              16683.53
MRPS                139.71
Out of mana time    0.08%

elapsed simulation time: 10000.00h

Glyphs used: Windfury, Stormstrike, Lava Lash

                    DPS                 PPM       MPS
white               1806.33   34.22%    85.61
windfury            648.46    12.29%    6.09
flametongue         492.87    9.34%     49.44
stormstrike         300.39    5.69%     6.52      35.95     25.85%
lava lash           182.49    3.46%     7.74      15.58     11.21%
searing totem       341.56    6.47%     1.00      4.82      3.47%
earth shock         556.76    10.55%    8.32      34.33     24.69%
lightning bolt      746.55    14.14%    8.05      48.35     34.78%
lightning shield    202.85    3.84%     0.85      0.00      0.00%

DPS                 5278.27
MPS                 139.04
MP2min              16684.50
MRPS                139.65
Out of mana time    0.08%

elapsed simulation time: 10000.00h

Glyphs used: Windfury, Stormstrike, Flametongue

                    DPS                 PPM       MPS
white               1809.05   34.12%    85.63
windfury            649.76    12.25%    6.10
flametongue         500.38    9.44%     49.46
stormstrike         300.74    5.67%     6.52      35.94     26.14%
lava lash           169.27    3.19%     7.74      15.38     11.19%
searing totem       346.66    6.54%     1.00      4.82      3.51%
earth shock         565.53    10.67%    8.32      33.45     24.33%
lightning bolt      758.14    14.3%     8.06      47.89     34.83%
lightning shield    202.95    3.83%     0.85      0.00      0.00%

DPS                 5302.50
MPS                 137.50
MP2min              16499.63
MRPS                132.10
Out of mana time    0.06%

elapsed simulation time: 10000.00h

Glyphs used: Earth Shock, Stormstrike, Lightning Shield

                    DPS                 PPM       MPS
white               1806.92   33.9%     85.62
windfury            619.29    11.62%    6.12
flametongue         498.40    9.35%     50.00
stormstrike         309.25    5.8%      6.72      37.04     26.03%
lava lash           177.49    3.33%     8.13      16.39     11.51%
searing totem       354.97    6.66%     1.01      4.85      3.41%
earth shock         563.47    10.57%    8.42      35.12     24.68%
lightning bolt      752.72    14.12%    8.12      48.93     34.38%
lightning shield    247.13    4.64%     0.87      0.00      0.00%

DPS                 5329.64
MPS                 142.33
MP2min              17079.23
MRPS                151.49
Out of mana time    0.05%

elapsed simulation time: 10000.00h

Glyphs used: Earth Shock, Windfury, Lightning Shield

                    DPS                 PPM       MPS
white               1807.30   34.32%    85.62
windfury            651.87    12.38%    6.12
flametongue         498.44    9.47%     50.00
stormstrike         309.41    5.88%     6.72      37.04     26.03%
lava lash           177.42    3.37%     8.13      16.38     11.51%
searing totem       354.99    6.74%     1.01      4.85      3.41%
earth shock         528.34    10.03%    8.42      35.11     24.67%
lightning bolt      705.88    13.41%    8.12      48.93     34.38%
lightning shield    231.72    4.4%      0.87      0.00      0.00%

DPS                 5265.38
MPS                 142.32
MP2min              17077.88
MRPS                151.39
Out of mana time    0.05%

elapsed simulation time: 10000.00h

Glyphs used: Earth Shock, Stormstrike, Lava Lash

                    DPS                 PPM       MPS
white               1806.57   34.07%    85.62
windfury            619.39    11.68%    6.12
flametongue         498.36    9.4%      49.99
stormstrike         309.37    5.83%     6.72      37.04     26.03%
lava lash           191.73    3.62%     8.13      16.39     11.51%
searing totem       354.94    6.69%     1.01      4.85      3.41%
earth shock         563.57    10.63%    8.42      35.11     24.67%
lightning bolt      752.94    14.2%     8.12      48.93     34.38%
lightning shield    206.06    3.89%     0.87      0.00      0.00%

DPS                 5302.92
MPS                 142.32
MP2min              17078.04
MRPS                151.40
Out of mana time    0.05%

elapsed simulation time: 10000.00h

Glyphs used: Flametongue, Lava Lash, Stormstrike

                    DPS                 PPM       MPS
white               1809.34   34.24%    85.63
windfury            617.63    11.69%    6.10
flametongue         500.47    9.47%     49.46
stormstrike         300.78    5.69%     6.52      35.94     26.14%
lava lash           182.79    3.46%     7.74      15.38     11.19%
searing totem       346.72    6.56%     1.00      4.82      3.51%
earth shock         565.21    10.7%     8.32      33.46     24.33%
lightning bolt      758.17    14.35%    8.06      47.90     34.84%
lightning shield    202.94    3.84%     0.85      0.00      0.00%

DPS                 5284.05
MPS                 137.51
MP2min              16500.94
MRPS                132.09
Out of mana time    0.06%

elapsed simulation time: 10000.00h

Conclusion:

As far as I can tell, the best combination (once the bug is fixed) is Stormstrike, Earth Shock, and Lightning Shield. Right now, until the ES glyph is fixed, Windfury, Stormstrike, and Lightning Shield *barely* outpaces Windfury, Stormstrike, and Flametongue. It's so close that either one could be used with no repercussions.

The only thing I wish I could run is the (Bugged)Earth Shock, Stormstrike, and Lightning Shield. Just to see if it outpaces the other 2 current options.

Urgok · 12/03/08, 2:51 AM

I copied the values you used for your simulation and error checked it to with in maybe a .12% difference. I got 5131.82 DPS the first simulation with no glyphs.

                    DPS                 PPM       MPS
white               1807.15   35.21%    85.61
windfury            615.41    11.99%    6.10
flametongue         493.29    9.61%     49.49
stormstrike         300.15    5.85%     6.52      35.93     25.83%
lava lash           169.17    3.3%      7.76      15.61     11.23%
searing totem       342.11    6.67%     1.00      4.82      3.47%
earth shock         522.21    10.18%    8.33      34.38     24.72%
lightning bolt      699.51    13.63%    8.05      48.33     34.75%
lightning shield    182.83    3.56%     0.76      0.00      0.00%

DPS                 5131.82
MPS                 139.07
MP2min              16688.46
MRPS                139.90
Out of mana time    0.08%

elapsed simulation time: 10000.00h
elapsed real time: 26.72s
simulation speed: 1347406x

Just for completeness I ran the following
Stormstrike, Flametongue, Lightning Shield

                    DPS                 PPM       MPS
white               1810.22   34.14%    85.63
windfury            616.07    11.62%    6.10
flametongue         500.82    9.45%     49.50
stormstrike         300.59    5.67%     6.52      35.93     26.13%
lava lash           169.53    3.2%      7.76      15.42     11.21%
searing totem       347.35    6.55%     1.00      4.82      3.51%
earth shock         565.88    10.67%    8.33      33.51     24.37%
lightning bolt      757.45    14.29%    8.05      47.84     34.79%
lightning shield    234.08    4.41%     0.76      0.00      0.00%

DPS                 5301.99
MPS                 137.52
MP2min              16502.54
MRPS                132.34
Out of mana time    0.06%

elapsed simulation time: 10000.00h
elapsed real time: 25.67s
simulation speed: 1402360x

Since there is some discussion above about Windfury and The Totem of Splintering I ran this as well;

Windfury Glyph, Totem of Splintering, and Dual WF

                    DPS                 PPM       MPS
white               1803.23   36.92%    85.85
windfury            1075.36   22.02%    12.32
stormstrike         298.46    6.11%     6.52      35.91     25.20%
lava lash           132.34    2.71%     7.63      15.27     10.71%
searing totem       281.39    5.76%     1.00      4.82      3.38%
earth shock         461.84    9.46%     8.23      33.75     23.68%
lightning bolt      657.76    13.47%    8.82      52.79     37.03%
lightning shield    173.78    3.56%     0.83      0.00      0.00%

DPS                 4884.16
MPS                 142.53
MP2min              17103.61
MRPS                159.01
Out of mana time    0.12%

elapsed simulation time: 10000.00h
elapsed real time: 24.86s
simulation speed: 1448167x

Assuming that the simulator accurately assigns the extra AP from the totem, dual WF with it and WF glyph is inferior to an un-glyphed WF/FT.

Lastly, just for completeness.
WF/FT with a Windfury Glyph and Totem of Splintering

                    DPS                 PPM       MPS
white               1795.16   34.87%    85.61
windfury            656.99    12.76%    6.09
flametongue         491.21    9.54%     49.49
stormstrike         298.13    5.79%     6.52      35.93     25.84%
lava lash           167.96    3.26%     7.76      15.62     11.23%
searing totem       340.04    6.61%     1.00      4.82      3.47%
earth shock         520.92    10.12%    8.33      34.39     24.73%
lightning bolt      695.94    13.52%    8.04      48.32     34.74%
lightning shield    181.80    3.53%     0.76      0.00      0.00%

DPS                 5148.15
MPS                 139.08
MP2min              16689.80
MRPS                139.54
Out of mana time    0.08%

elapsed simulation time: 10000.00h
elapsed real time: 24.66s
simulation speed: 1460090x

So it doesn't look like WF should be in contention for a slot even with the absolute best case scenario.

Oh and correct me if I'm wrong, but this is an end t7 paper doll more or less? The values I've been getting for glyphs pre-naxx are roughly similar to the ones you have posted. That is SS>ES>FT/WF>LL/LS. I'm still waiting on a new WWS report to seriously compare LL and LS glyphs.

Wow Web Stats A Grand Widow Faerlina Kill.

Wow Web Stats A Grand Widow Faerlina Kill, the same as above only LL glyph was replaced with a LS glyph and I have 3/3 Call of Flame. I dropped lots of mana saving talents and UR to scavenge talents for Imp. Shields and Static Shock. Gear and Raid Buffs/Debuffs remained constant.

There is an approximate difference of 200dps between the two, with Lightning Shield out performing Lava Lash glyph. You will notice that in the second encounter less overall damage is done, this is largely explained by the decreased time to kill the boss, about 15 seconds. You will also notice that ST did about five thousand damage less in the second kill. So the difference is probably not from the talented totem.

I do not pretend that either test is definitive in any way since they each equal about 3 minutes, with really only about 7 minutes between the two parses being suitable for comparison.

Originally Posted by Rounced

Just that Lightning Shield loses all effectiveness the moment you have to use Water Shield because your mana is low and the overtaking aspect is by maybe 1-2 dps so it's really not worth it yet.

If we get up to KT in a 10 man naxx run this week I'll nab a WWS for everyone, using my current 0 efficiency build. Our last KT run ran us about 11 minutes during which I only had to use SR once if I recall correctly, and I really cant think of a better fight to test this sort of thing in that doesn't involve mana burn.

SentinelBorg · 12/03/08, 7:26 AM

Don't forget that in some encounters LS is also triggered regulary and not just by Static Shock. Also the Glyph is great for PvP and solo-PvE.

Jarlil · 12/03/08, 2:20 PM

With those number crunches.. are you taking into account talents or is it just the Glyphs? If so which talents are you taking into consideration?
Elemental Weapons? (which do not add a static 40% AP bonus to WF anymore but increase the damage caused by the Windfury Effect by 40%)
Improved Shields? (+15% damage to your Lightning Shield)

When considering Static Shock can Lightning Shield Procs crit? If so would Elemental Fury have to be taken into account when running the numbers?

I'm new to the number crunching scene as I'm only starting to take a serious interesting in raiding so forgive me if I make invalid points.

Fortay · 12/04/08, 2:25 PM

With those number crunches.. are you taking into account talents or is it just the Glyphs? If so which talents are you taking into consideration?

I believe Triper's Config File displays the talents used for the EnhSim, but I am not positive.

When considering Static Shock can Lightning Shield Procs crit?

From viewing my own Recount & WWS Lightning Shield procs cannot crit.

I am also somewhat new to EJ & the EnhSim, please forgive me if I make any errors.

My question is:
Would a faster OH ie 1.6 range, be more beneficial to LS glyph (swinging faster thus producing more Static Shock Procs) if you had 4Piece T7 Bonus, 3/3 Improved shields and SS Glyph? The only reason I ask this is I was reading Nevets_69's post in the EnhSim thread EnhSim, DPS simulator where they did a EnhSim for different OH speeds and their viability. Since the slowest 1H weapons obtainable pre S5 is 2.6/2.5, Nevets_69 model seems to say 2.6/1.6 > 2.6/2.5 although it has yet to be confirmed.

I have not had the best of luck with EnhSim as of yet, but I will try to test it later tonight.

PhyerFly · 12/13/08, 12:08 PM

Anyone care to theorize about the changes to the WF Weapon Glyph?

From http://www.mmo-champion.com/index.php?topic=30117.0
Glyph of Windfury Weapon - Increases the chance per swing for Windfury Weapon to trigger by 5%. (Old - The attack power bonus on the additional attacks granted by Windfury Weapon is increased by 40%.)

Pitbuller · 12/13/08, 12:12 PM

New wf glyph will boost singe wield wf damage about 15.4-20%. This is about ~2% dps increase. Math behind these numbes are simple. After all haste effect with slower than 1.5s weapon we actual proc chance is 16.666% and with that glyph it's 20%. If main hand hit faster than 1.5s then numbers are 14.44% and 16.66%.
0.2 / 0.1666... = 1.2
0.16666... / 0.1444... = 1.1538

Then if wf damage is about 10-15% total damage this give about ~2% damage increase. Increased wf hits also give some benefit to damage I can guess this is around +1%. Much better than before.

Mengus · 12/13/08, 7:48 PM

Anyone on the PTR see if Earth Shock Glyph is now working? I haven't seen any patch notes about it, and wonder if it was neglected, or just a stealth implementation.

I suspect that with the WF Change, and with a working Earth Shock Glyph, the standard Enh build will be:

Stormstrike, Windfury, Earthshock.

SentinelBorg · 12/13/08, 10:36 PM

They also changed the Lightning Bolt Glyph to 4% damage increase. This could also become interesting for us.
The new WF glyph is nice on the one side, but strange on the other as long as they keep the Windfury cooldown.

Rouncer · 12/13/08, 11:06 PM

Originally Posted by SentinelBorg

They also changed the Lightning Bolt Glyph to 4% damage increase. This could also become interesting for us.
The new WF glyph is nice on the one side, but strange on the other as long as they keep the Windfury cooldown.

Lightning Bolt is kinda meh for us.

WF glyph makes perfect sense. Its a great glyph if you are single imbuing WF, it is an awful glyph if you duel imbue WF. They want us to use WF/FT thus the glyph makes perfect sense.

Tramana · 12/14/08, 2:00 AM

Originally Posted by Mengus

Anyone on the PTR see if Earth Shock Glyph is now working? I haven't seen any patch notes about it, and wonder if it was neglected, or just a stealth implementation.

Just logged in to test. It's still a one second cooldown with the glyph.

Atren · 12/14/08, 2:33 AM

Originally Posted by Rounced

Lightning Bolt is kinda meh for us.

WF glyph makes perfect sense. Its a great glyph if you are single imbuing WF, it is an awful glyph if you duel imbue WF. They want us to use WF/FT thus the glyph makes perfect sense.

Ok, why would it be awful if we use 2xWF? It seems to me actually this should up the damage of 2xWF more than WF/FT. I guess we need to wait for simulator to be updated before this can be tested.

• Zyla · 12/14/08, 3:12 AM

Originally Posted by Atren

Ok, why would it be awful if we use 2xWF? It seems to me actually this should up the damage of 2xWF more than WF/FT. I guess we need to wait for simulator to be updated before this can be tested.

It's fairly simple. We don't want to see Offhand WF procs because they invoke the 3 second WF cooldown. Anything that increases the proc chance also increases the proc chance of the offhand. Add in its interaction with lavalash, and you start seeing that your offhand is proccing a lot more then your mainhand, which results in a net dps loss over the alternative. (not to mention that with a full raid group's buffs, flametongue can be just as much damage as windfury, and you don't fight over procs. Your WF/WF "uptime" will be much higher, but a lot of those "extra" procs are the lower damaging offhand procs. It might freak you out to realize that we actually attack more often with our offhand if the speeds are equal, which completely eliminates the point of having a slow weapon there.

Rouncer · 12/14/08, 12:13 PM

Originally Posted by Zyla

It's fairly simple. We don't want to see Offhand WF procs because they invoke the 3 second WF cooldown. Anything that increases the proc chance also increases the proc chance of the offhand. Add in its interaction with lavalash, and you start seeing that your offhand is proccing a lot more then your mainhand, which results in a net dps loss over the alternative. (not to mention that with a full raid group's buffs, flametongue can be just as much damage as windfury, and you don't fight over procs. Your WF/WF "uptime" will be much higher, but a lot of those "extra" procs are the lower damaging offhand procs. It might freak you out to realize that we actually attack more often with our offhand if the speeds are equal, which completely eliminates the point of having a slow weapon there.

Basically, although that aspect can be controlled to a certain degree by limiting usage of lava lash. Basically using a /castsequence macro so that Lava Lash will only follow Stormstrike you lose some of your lava lash damage but you make it back, and then some, by increasing the proportion of mainhand Windfury procs.

Another reason is that when you use WF/WF you have a 36% chance to proc per weapon hit so the average delay between windfury procs is already very low after taking the cooldown into account. Since the delay is so minimal already there really isn't much of an advantage gained by increasing the proc rate by 5%.

Looking back on my old math I had an average of a Windfury proc every 4.77 seconds when using WF/WF, that's basically 2 weapon strikes (fully hasted) following the cooldown. With a single imbue it's currently around 11 seconds between procs or 5 weapon strikes between procs.

Think about it this way; if you have a 20% critical strike chance and you add 5% it is a substantial increase in dps (with 200% crits it will give you a ~4.8% dps increase), but if you have a 72% critical strike chance (2 weapons - 1 cooldown) and add 5% it really doesn't cause anywhere near the same increase in dps (with 200% crits you will only see a ~1.7% dps increase).

So the new glyph will still be a dps increase for WF/WF when compared to running with that glyph slot empty but when compared to the current windfury glyph it will probably end up being a slight dps loss for WF/WF. Which is fine since they want us to use WF/FT anyway and for WF/FT the new glyph is a very nice buff that will also scale with our gear, something the previous glyph wouldn't do.

TheTrix · 12/16/08, 11:00 AM

Has anyone considered the new Lightning Bolt glyph instead of for instance the ES glyph if they continue to not fix it?
My sims seem to have LB doing as much as 16% of my damage, beating both es and wf, can't imagine 4% extra damage will hurt :P

Edit: after posting this, i did what i guess i should have done from the get go! Sim the bugger! or.. well actually.. look at the numbers

with my LB dps at slighly over 550, the dps increase for the glyph was just over 20, slightly less than the ES glyph supposedly gives with the same gear setup. So i guess its pretty useless