Enhancement Glyphs a numeric comparison - Page 20

Levva · 09/26/09, 10:12 PM

Originally Posted by Rouncer

They get 2x their strength but they don't get any of our strength anymore. That was what I thought you were talking about, they changed the wolves to scale off our AP not off our strength.

You owe me 10g by the way, for making me actually go and buy a pair of strength pants to confirm this again. They had 331 strength without me wearing the pants and they had exactly 331 strength when I am wearing the pants. So their strength is unaffected by our strength and their Power only scales based on our AP.

Since I'm playing I figured it would be interesting to see what would happen if I buffed a wolf with a Scroll of Strength (30 strength). The buffed wolf was definitely hitting harder then the other wolf and the pet tab showed a gain of 60 AP.

Will take me a bit of time to pay you back. I'll need to create a lvl 1 on Mal'Ganis first do you recommend a Orc, Troll or Tauren?

Just us getting our wires crossed I did not mean wolves got AP from OUR strength only their strength. Cheaper test would of course have been drop SoE totem or use a scroll of Strength on yourself vs pet even a lvl 1 scroll.

Hmm now I think of it I'm not so sure I really owe you actually. A lvl 1 scroll is NOT 10g if it is on your server then I'm off to level inscription on Mal'Ganis

On a side note - do you think casual readers will now think EJ forums is recommending buffing their wolves with Scroll of Strength VIII once summoned to get extra 60AP on that one wolf?

Vespasian · 09/26/09, 11:59 PM

Originally Posted by Levva

On a side note - do you think casual readers will now think EJ forums is recommending buffing their wolves with Scroll of Strength VIII once summoned to get extra 60AP on that one wolf?

I will be sure to add this to the Bis page

hozzer · 09/27/09, 2:42 AM

On players, this scroll does not stack with SoE. Is it different for wolves?

Puza · 09/27/09, 5:57 AM

Has the math been done to quantify the benefit of Glyph of Flameshock in comparison to;

1) [Glyph of Windfury Weapon]
2) [Glyph of Stormstrike]
3) [Glyph of Feral Spirit]

While the general consensus seemes to be replace Windfury, I would be interested to find out the extent of the benefit, and if this is in fact a valid reccomendation.

maelfus · 09/27/09, 6:20 AM

Just get your paladins to rebuff might and kings on warriors whenever you pop your spirit wolves.

Spaceinvader · 10/01/09, 12:41 PM

Originally Posted by Levva

Formulae is therefore confirmed as 2x(dogs STR) - 20 + (.31+.3 if FS glyph)*shaman AP. Given you thought this was wrong it would be useful to know what the Sim is coded as.

Even though you guys ended up being on the same page, just thought I would mentioned that I took a look at the EnhSim code and SW AP is calculated properly according to your formula. The wolves have their own independent stats (e.g. STR, haste) that are properly buffed by raid-wide buffs from your config file (e.g. totems, but not blessings/shouts). So all looks kosher.

speirling82 · 10/15/09, 2:44 PM

Saw the posted numbers about few of the glyphs, but still a few I was wondering about. Mainly lighting bolt, with 4% more damage from the lighting bolt. I know my shaman ill stack mealstorm pretty fast. So would the lb glyphs be worth the slot. And would the 200 haste Lb ele totem matter into that? thanks for any feed back on this

Levva · 10/16/09, 6:17 AM

In the Rawr Enhance thread [Enhancement] Rawr.Enhance thread I posted initial results from Rawr.Enhance with FlameShock glyph support could those interested in the maths check the validity of the calculations please.

Kyuuzo · 11/06/09, 3:41 AM

Trying buffing your wolves, isn't neither a bad idea nor a good one to me. The thing is that it might end up being too much of a fuss, or even too lifeconsuming, especially if you raid serious bosses(not that there any atm) which you have to pay attention all the time, and trying to buff your wolfs at that times wouldn't be the best thing. Enhancement spec is rly cool to play, tho sometimes tiring. But in general, it needs to much effort, and a great amount of time to deal with, i kudo all of you guys that deal with numeric comparison and stuff, you rly help community, such guys like myself would never be able to do such stuff. Tho i most of the times get confused ^_^

Psychodays · 01/04/10, 3:12 AM

I have this idea that Fire Nova may be our best glyph, single target included. My theory is that we are not as GCD strained as we think(or as the sim predicts?), and by glyphing FN we can cast roughly 0.06-0.1 additional spells per second. In practice this means roughly 1 extra FN every 10-16 seconds which is ~160-220dps

Looking at logs from Deathbringer Saurfang counting the total casts of, LB, ES, FN, SS, FS, LL, CL, and the assumptions that people are keeping up totems, ls, lust, wolves as normal.
3 Shamans, un-glyphed .567spells/second - ex. Rouncer
2 Shamans, 3 logs FN-glyphed .643spells/second ex. Kresh1, Kresh2

Of course there could be other explanations: The sim could be correct in that we are GCD capped, and factors like haste, latency, autohotkey, and correctly prioritizing spells prevent players from reaching the same spell/second rate.

Maihes · 01/04/10, 5:29 AM

What I have been playing with was actually Fire Ele totem, in fights that are ~6-7 Minutes would provide two full uses, in this time (on Single target) Fire Ele would do more damage then Magma, as well as freeing up the GCD of refreshing Magma.

I didn't see anything about it, and since glyphed it is a 5 min CD with a 2 min duration (barring fights where an add spawn will gib it, or movement will deaggro the ele), I am for the most part guildless atm so I am not able to actively test it vs other third options.

Add: Shaman = Lawlburkek, US-Gorgonnash

Rouncer · 01/04/10, 10:25 AM

Originally Posted by Psychodays

I have this idea that Fire Nova may be our best glyph, single target included. My theory is that we are not as GCD strained as we think(or as the sim predicts?), and by glyphing FN we can cast roughly 0.06-0.1 additional spells per second. In practice this means roughly 1 extra FN every 10-16 seconds which is ~160-220dps

Looking at logs from Deathbringer Saurfang counting the total casts of, LB, ES, FN, SS, FS, LL, CL, and the assumptions that people are keeping up totems, ls, lust, wolves as normal.
3 Shamans, un-glyphed .567spells/second - ex. Rouncer
2 Shamans, 3 logs FN-glyphed .643spells/second ex. Kresh1, Kresh2

Of course there could be other explanations: The sim could be correct in that we are GCD capped, and factors like haste, latency, autohotkey, and correctly prioritizing spells prevent players from reaching the same spell/second rate.

The problem with your idea is that you aren't taking into account how we are GCD contrained. It's not that we use less abilities then we are capable of using, it's how long it takes us to find the opportunity to use the abilities with more damage per cast.

Think about it this way. You cast a Fire Nova and then 0.5 seconds later get your 5th stack of MW, now you have to wait out the rest of the GCD before you can use that stack and start working towards the next stack. The more crowded you make that GCD the more often those situations will occur. That's also the reason haste has such a high value for us since the faster your GCD runs the less time lost to being stuck at a 5 stack losing potential charges.

Levva · 01/04/10, 6:32 PM

Originally Posted by Psychodays

I have this idea that Fire Nova may be our best glyph, single target included. My theory is that we are not as GCD strained as we think(or as the sim predicts?), and by glyphing FN we can cast roughly 0.06-0.1 additional spells per second. In practice this means roughly 1 extra FN every 10-16 seconds which is ~160-220dps

Looking at logs from Deathbringer Saurfang counting the total casts of, LB, ES, FN, SS, FS, LL, CL, and the assumptions that people are keeping up totems, ls, lust, wolves as normal.
3 Shamans, un-glyphed .567spells/second - ex. Rouncer
2 Shamans, 3 logs FN-glyphed .643spells/second ex. Kresh1, Kresh2

Of course there could be other explanations: The sim could be correct in that we are GCD capped, and factors like haste, latency, autohotkey, and correctly prioritizing spells prevent players from reaching the same spell/second rate.

Your logic is fatally flawed though. The only benefit of FN glyph is 3 sec less CD time, taking the CD to 3 seconds assuming talented for 2/2 Imp.Fire Nova which almost every Enh Shammy is these days. So if as a result of your maths - which I'd question in any case - you get a benefit of "1 extra FN every 10-16 seconds" how is that actually making use of the glyph?

Taking the CD to 3 seconds means you have an exceptionally crowded priority list. If you put FN in your priority as suggested ie: either just below or just above LL, then you aren't going to be able to make use of that extra 3 seconds. So you have just wasted a glyph slot for something that isn't being used.

Its an AoE glyph or a PvP glyph it most certainly is not a PvE glyph for boss fights.

Rouncer · 01/04/10, 6:58 PM

Originally Posted by Levva

Its an AoE glyph or a PvP glyph it most certainly is not a PvE glyph for boss fights.

I agree with you but would caution against definitive statements in regard to that glyph. Kresh is using it and has shown himself in the top few parses on WoL and his logic does have some merits. Well it does when he explains it at least.

He outgears me (310 dps over a 4 min fight according to the sim) and his raid generally kills Saurfang quicker then mine and my performance isn't too far off of his which does give strength to the argument that using another glyph would be better but it's hard to say either way.

Personally, I use the glyph for Anub and stick to something else for everything else. Although that has less to do with dps and more to do with enjoyment as using that glyph feels overwhelming to me as there are just too many available options for every GCD. Maybe if I used Shock and Awe's priority list, like Kresh does, it would be workable but I still prefer to work that part out for myself.

• Krish · 01/04/10, 9:57 PM

Glyph of Fire Nova sims out to about a 70 DPS single-target upgrade over no 3rd glyph for me. FS glyph sims highest at about 30 additional single-target DPS. The sim, however, shows it as about 5.5% of my damage whereas actual combat logs are showing it as closer to 7% of my actual damage on single-target fights. Considering the large DPS advantage for multi-target fights (of which there are many), I'm sticking with the FN glyph for now. I may try swapping in the FS or LS glyph for a pure single-target fight, but right now the only one is really Beasts.