Enhancement Glyphs a numeric comparison - Page 4

Rouncer · 01/22/09, 8:55 AM

Originally Posted by SentinelBorg

I read this thread, but your results are as insufficient as mine. With a weapon speed of 2.6 to 2.9 we should end with a procrate of 20% with the glyph while auto-attacking. But your numbers are lower then that. And your tests at the end, were way too short, to take them as a final proof.

I will try to do a longer testrun in the next days.

Just look at the 3.8speed tests since those are the ones that remove the cooldown from consideration. If you want to rerun the test to confirm my results feel free but it's clear to me that it is working as intended.

LazyJoe · 01/27/09, 5:51 AM

Back to the subject : did anyone measure the glyph's impact on overall procrate in "real" combat conditions ? I.e. with a 2.5 - 2.6 weapon with windfury totem, flurry and a few haste.

Bren · 02/09/09, 6:02 AM

Taken from the 3.09 Patchnotes on MMO-Champion:

Glyph of Windfury Weapon -- Increases the chance per swing for Windfury Weapon to trigger by 2%. (Down from 5%)

I'm not sure how to test/calculate the "dps value" of the new WF Glyph. Does EnhSim have an option to set the WF proc chance?

Thorrgal · 02/09/09, 6:11 AM

Edit: Bren beat me to it

Staticus · 02/09/09, 6:25 AM

Was about to bump this...looks like I could be getting rid of the glyph again. We'll let the sim decide once it's updated with yet another expected nerf. (well you didn't think we were getting 2% melee crit on UR for nothing did you)

Revdarian · 02/09/09, 6:28 AM

Originally Posted by Staticus

Was about to bump this...looks like I could be getting rid of the glyph again. We'll let the sim decide once it's updated with yet another expected nerf. (well you didn't think we were getting 2% melee crit on UR for nothing did you)

Agreed, this *toning down* actually puts the glyph below the alternatives.

Pitbuller · 02/09/09, 6:49 AM

3.08 Wf glyph 129dps or 2.2%.
3.09 Wf glyph 52dps or 0.9%.

SentinelBorg · 02/09/09, 9:40 AM

Doesn't make much sense to me. If they needed to nerf something cause of the UR buff, then this would have been finally their chance to "fix" flurry to 5/10/15/20/25%. The nerf of a only mediocre glyph to a now useless glyph, I can't understand.

This change will now drive even more shamans to a lightning dagger setup, I don't see how this could be the intention of Blizzard. If they wanted to nerf a glyph, they could have changed the stormstrike glyph to 5% or so.

Malan · 02/09/09, 10:58 AM

Its more likely the change is to correct how powerful the windfury glyph was. I don't think anyone here could tell me with a straight face that they really believe a glyph should provide over 100 dps.

Thorrgal · 02/09/09, 11:30 AM

Originally Posted by Malan

Its more likely the change is to correct how powerful the windfury glyph was. I don't think anyone here could tell me with a straight face that they really believe a glyph should provide over 100 dps.

So how much DPS do you think a glyph should provide?

Also I was under the impression SS Glyph was better that the WF one, even the 5% version...is that not the case? and if it is, do you think they should nerf that too?

I guess it would be great if soemone could make a list with the DPS every Glyph gives, but I guess if that list doesnt exist yet is not that a simple matter and we'll have to sim our way to it.

Anyway, I dont think the nerf of the Glyph has to do with the UR change, but more on the line of stiring us away from the WF/WF that some people may still be using towards the WF/FT they clearly prefer us to use.

Also even to make the OH speed more versatile, so is not Webbed Death>any slow epic one>rest of fast epic ones but more DPS dependant.

Revdarian · 02/09/09, 12:53 PM

Well actually the change is more towards the fact that when fully geared, we are doing a tad more dps than intended... heck more than a couple *pure* dpsers.

Still weird about them fixing it on the glyph instead of other mechanics we have.

fearghal · 02/09/09, 1:14 PM

So?
What is the best Major Glyphs for Enh Shamans now?
Anyone tested Lightning Bolt glyph? -> Lightning bolts do alot of our dps..

motomower · 02/09/09, 1:19 PM

for MW5 I used the CL/LB macro, but now that they nerf the base dmg of CL for single target, LB Spam with 4%+ dmg glyphed isn't a bad choice

Rouncer · 02/09/09, 1:36 PM

I have issues with buying the notion that this is a pre-emptive nerf to deal with the changes being made to UR. I think they found that changing the glyph gave more of an increase then they intended for any glyph and even though it was the duct tape holding Windfury together they just yanked it off instead of looking for another option to "rein in" our dps.

That's the real issue with the change since that glyph was the only thing keeping Windfury imbue as a viable option for the mainhand. Our new BiS weapon for the mainhand is [Torch of Holy Fire] with Webbed Death in the offhand both imbued with Flametongue and that's before I really even start to optimize gearing to maximize flametongue output. With this change windfury has been relegated to PvP and to undergeared shaman and really will no longer have any use for a raiding Enhancement Shaman.

Alas, poor Windfury Weapon! We knew it, Horatio, an imbue of infinite
jest, of most excellent fancy. It hath bore us on it's back a
thousand times, and now how abhorr'd in our imagination it is!
Our gorge rises at it.

Staticus · 02/09/09, 1:51 PM

If the spectre of lightning knives with caster gear resurfaces, blizz will take drastic action...probably worse than what they threatened to do with MQ in 3.0.8 before they saw sense.

Rouncer · 02/09/09, 2:04 PM

Originally Posted by Staticus

If the spectre of lightning knives with caster gear resurfaces, blizz will take drastic action...probably worse than what they threatened to do with MQ in 3.0.8 before they saw sense.

It is not resurfacing, it is dancing amongst us.

Staticus · 02/09/09, 2:14 PM

Then it's only a matter of time before we lose a huge chunk of our spelldmg...along with our dps. At least the whole melee/magic synergy is too complex for blizz to just yank it out altogether and revert us to the pre-2.3 days of slow WF/WF and 10% of dps coming from spells.

newkimus · 02/09/09, 2:20 PM

Originally Posted by Rounced

Our new BiS weapon for the mainhand is [Torch of Holy Fire] with Webbed Death in the offhand both imbued with Flametongue and that's before I really even start to optimize gearing to maximize flametongue output...

Sorry to swing off topic here but there isn't yet much of a discussion on MH weaps in particular differences of SP weaps vs DPS weaps

I'm not exactly proficient at EnhSim yet but [Wraith Strike] is siming comparable dps with [Torch of Holy Fire] and both greater than [Calamity's Grasp]

ToHF - 5900.07 ft/ft
WS - 5893.35 wf/ft
CG - 5834.28 wf/ft

is Wraith Strike considered a viable MH? (Found discussion of this during beta and WS was shut down as not viable then)

SentinelBorg · 02/09/09, 3:29 PM

Originally Posted by Staticus

Then it's only a matter of time before we lose a huge chunk of our spelldmg...along with our dps. At least the whole melee/magic synergy is too complex for blizz to just yank it out altogether and revert us to the pre-2.3 days of slow WF/WF and 10% of dps coming from spells.

They don't need to fix our spelldamage, they just need to fix Flametongue. If the coefficient would scale with weapon base speed, for example 10% at 2.5 speed, 7.2% at 1.8 speed and so on, slow/slow wf/ft would be the best setup and everything would be fine.

Talaus-Mok'Nathal · 02/09/09, 3:33 PM

Originally Posted by Pitbuller

3.08 Wf glyph 129dps or 2.2%.
3.09 Wf glyph 52dps or 0.9%.

If these estimates are right, FT becomes better than WF, at least for my gear (which is sub-par as I was forced into a resto main-spec until we got more healers). I lose 70 dps in the simulator by switching to FT glyph, and the WF glyph change will be a 77 dps drop. However, already having the Torch of Holy Fire, switching Angry Dread to my offhand and using FT on both increases my dps by ~70 over the current WF mechanics, and with Webbed Death in offhand jumps it another 90. My buff food is +40 hit, which isn't currently included in the sim, so I jammed it into my base stats.

Other interesting thing to note was that +63 sp enchant simmed about the same dps as Berserking on ToHF when using Webbed Death. Finally, yes Wraith Strike is a valid MH weapon.

                    DPS                 PPM       MPS
white               1359.28   26.6%     131.71
flametongue         1352.05   26.45%    149.24
stormstrike         159.95    3.13%     6.67      36.75     24.41%
lava lash           89.15     1.74%     8.68      19.03     12.64%
searing totem       387.58    7.58%     1.06      5.11      3.39%
earth shock         640.84    12.54%    9.12      43.35     28.80%
lightning bolt      738.02    14.44%    7.29      46.31     30.76%
lightning shield    384.15    7.52%     1.06      0.00      0.00%

DPS                 5111.03
MPS                 150.55
MP2min              18065.57
MRPS                143.84
Out of mana time    0.55%

simulation_time                 1000
simulation_time_combatlog       30
combat_length                   6
report_count                    80
threads                         2
min_lag                         0
max_lag                         0
simulate_mana                   1

ep_precision                    2
ep_base_stat                    ap
ep_ap                           64
ep_crit_rating                  46
ep_hit_rating                   30
ep_expertise                    4
ep_haste_rating                 33
ep_armor_penetration_rating     15
ep_spellpower                   28
ep_dps                          10.0
ep_mana                         200
ep_spirit                       100
ep_mp5                          20

mh_auto_attack                  1
oh_auto_attack                  1
wait_ss_with_wf_cd              0
cast_ll_only_if_wf_on_cd        0
bloodlust_casters               2
sync_bloodlust_with_trinkets    0
cast_lvb_only_if_ed_left        15
cast_lvb_only_if_fsdots_left    4
cast_lvb_only_if_fs_active      1
cast_fs_only_if_dots_left       0
cast_ls_only_if_charges_left    0
cast_sr_only_if_mana_left       700
use_mana_potion_if_mana_left    3000

rotation_priority_count         7
rotation_priority1              SR
rotation_priority2              MW5_LB
rotation_priority3              ES_SS
rotation_priority4              SS
rotation_priority5		ST
rotation_priority6              LL
rotation_priority7              LS

miss                            8.00
dodge                           6.50
glancing                        25.00
armor                           13083
spell_miss                      17.00
nature_resistance               0
fire_resistance                 0
frost_resistance                0
arcane_resistance               0
shadow_resistance               0

armor_debuff_major              3925/3925
armor_debuff_minor              1260/1260
physical_vulnerability_debuff   2.0/2.0
melee_haste_buff                20.0/20.0
melee_crit_chance_buff          5.0/5.0
attack_power_buff_flat          688/688
attack_power_buff_multiplier    0/99.7
spell_haste_buff                5.0/5.0
spell_crit_chance_buff          5.0/5.0
spell_crit_chance_debuff        0.0/10.0
spell_damage_debuff             13.0/13.0
spellpower_buff                 280/280
spell_hit_chance_debuff         3.0/3.0
haste_buff                      3.0/3.0
percentage_damage_increase      3.0/3.0
crit_chance_debuff              3.0/3.0
stat_multiplier                 10.0/10.0
stat_add_buff                   52/52
agi_and_strength_buff           178/178
intellect_buff                  60/60

replenishment                   1
water_shield                    0
mana_spring_totem               1
blessing_of_wisdom              0
judgement_of_wisdom             1

flask_elixir                    flask_of_relentless_assault 
guardian_elixir                 -
potion                          runic_mana_potion 
food                            -
misc_item                       -

###############################################################################
### Everything in the section below can be replaced by information obtained ###
### from your paper doll stats or exported by the ShockAndAwe addon         ###
###############################################################################

race                            tauren
mh_speed                        1.8
oh_speed                        1.4
mh_dps                          98.9
oh_dps                          156.6
mh_crit                         26.82
oh_crit                         26.82
mh_hit                          17.56
oh_hit                          17.56
mh_expertise_rating             217
oh_expertise_rating             217
ap                              3238
haste                           3.41
armor_penetration               3.44
str                             135
agi                             718
int                             474
spi                             155
spellpower                      1554
spell_crit                      20.33
spell_hit                       14
max_mana                        11226
mp5                             0

mh_imbue                        flametongue
oh_imbue                        flametongue

mh_enchant                      -
oh_enchant                      berserking

mh_weapon                       -
oh_weapon                       -

trinket1                        mirror_of_truth 
trinket2                        -

totem                           totem_of_dueling 

set_bonus                       naxx_melee_4

metagem                         relentless_earthsiege_diamond

glyph_major1                    flametongue_weapon 
glyph_major2                    stormstrike
glyph_major3                    lightning_shield 

glyph_minor1                    -
glyph_minor2                    -
glyph_minor3                    -

ancestral_knowledge             2/5
improved_shields                1/3
mental_dexterity                3/3
shamanistic_focus               1/1
flurry                          5/5
elemental_weapons               3/3
unleashed_rage                  5/5
weapon_mastery                  3/3
dual_wield_specialization       3/3
mental_quickness                3/3
improved_stormstrike            2/2
static_shock                    3/3
maelstrom_weapon                5/5

convection                      0/5
concussion                      5/5
call_of_flame                   2/3
elemental_devastation           3/3
reverberation                   0/5
elemental_focus                 1/1
elemental_fury                  5/5
call_of_thunder                 0/1
unrelenting_storm               0/3
elemental_precision             0/3
lightning_mastery               0/5
elemental_oath                  0/2
lightning_overload              0/5
lava_flows                      0/3
storm_earth_and_fire            0/3
shamanism                       0/5

Talaus-Mok'Nathal · 02/09/09, 3:37 PM

Originally Posted by SentinelBorg

They don't need to fix our spelldamage, they just need to fix Flametongue. If the coefficient would scale with weapon base speed, for example 10% at 2.5 speed, 7.2% at 1.8 speed and so on, slow/slow wf/ft would be the best setup and everything would be fine.

I doubt that would help with the spell-power MH being BiS issue. The issue is that FT can potentially be too much of our damage. In my previously posted sim,FT was over 25% of my total damage. Even if they introduced scaling of FT, they'd still need to drop the damage output of it, which would no longer make it competitive with WF, which means back to slow/slow WF/WF.

Skiace · 02/09/09, 4:01 PM

Originally Posted by Talaus-Mok'Nathal

I doubt that would help with the spell-power MH being BiS issue. The issue is that FT can potentially be too much of our damage. In my previously posted sim,FT was over 25% of my total damage. Even if they introduced scaling of FT, they'd still need to drop the damage output of it, which would no longer make it competitive with WF, which means back to slow/slow WF/WF.

FT is too much damage when it scales improperly, i.e. fast weapons right now. Proper tuning of the spellpower coefficient as SentinalBorg and many others have suggested would normalize FT damage at an acceptable level for all weapon speeds.

Talaus-Mok'Nathal · 02/09/09, 4:32 PM

Originally Posted by Skiace

FT is too much damage when it scales improperly, i.e. fast weapons right now. Proper tuning of the spellpower coefficient as SentinalBorg and many others have suggested would normalize FT damage at an acceptable level for all weapon speeds.

Proper scaling would keep us from using fast weapons, I agree completely there. I just don't see how it would drive us away from spell power MHs though, unless they dropped the amount of damage FT is getting from SP. With the current WF glyph, ToHF is simming a lot more dps for me than CG, using either a slow (Angry Dread) or fast (Webbed Death) weapon in my offhand. Then the issue is if they drop the FT coefficient, WF/WF has a very good chance of becoming dominant again.

Skiace · 02/09/09, 4:51 PM

Originally Posted by Talaus-Mok'Nathal

Proper scaling would keep us from using fast weapons, I agree completely there. I just don't see how it would drive us away from spell power MHs though, unless they dropped the amount of damage FT is getting from SP. With the current WF glyph, ToHF is simming a lot more dps for me than CG, using either a slow (Angry Dread) or fast (Webbed Death) weapon in my offhand. Then the issue is if they drop the FT coefficient, WF/WF has a very good chance of becoming dominant again.

All solved if they limit WF to main hand only in addition to fixing the FT scaling. Again, a solution people have been suggesting here since wrath beta at least.

fearghal · 02/09/09, 4:56 PM

Would it help if they made it so the SP on the two FT wouldnt stack?