But..
Shouldnt someone start a new topic on this problem?
This thread is (as far as i can see) about enhancement glyphs..
Maybe we should continue that discussion?
Have anyone done any Sim on LB glyph? is it any good compare to SS/LS/FT?
All solved if they limit WF to main hand only in addition to fixing the FT scaling. Again, a solution people have been suggesting here since wrath beta at least.
Ah ha, a hidden nerf behind the FT changes, you sure you don't work for Blizzard? The next issue that comes up is now you have a need for more slow off-hand weapons, which are useless for any other class/spec (except maybe hunters if itemized properly) and single spec drops are something that they have really pushed away from. They'd have to turn all the slow MH weapons in to One-Hand to compensate. We can keep solving Blizzard's problems for them until the cows come home and hope that there are hidden reasons why changes that seem logical to us wouldn't work and that's why they aren't making them.
Ah hell, why am I defending Blizz anyway... All that really matters for these forums is that FT glyph now beats out WF and ToHF now becomes BiS for your mainhand.
Edit: LB glyph is 4% more damage on LB, even when using ToHF it only comes out to 965.25 dps from LB, which is a 38.61 dps increase, which is less than the 52 dps that a "nerfed" WF glyph will do. Also, using BiS gear (with ToHF boosting LB's damage contribution even more), it sims at 20 dps less than the FT glyph.
Has anyone made a post on the wow forums yet? I am sure that GC would be interested to know that the new BiS weapon will be ToHF, assuming no other changes are made. Another question assuming this goes forward does berserker stay the enchant of choice? I would sim it myself however I am at work currently. I am wondering if a straight spell power enchant on both weapons using ToHF and WD would offer the highest dps
Has anyone made a post on the wow forums yet? I am sure that GC would be interested to know that the new BiS weapon will be ToHF, assuming no other changes are made. Another question assuming this goes forward does berserker stay the enchant of choice? I would sim it myself however I am at work currently. I am wondering if a straight spell power enchant on both weapons using ToHF and WD would offer the highest dps
There is a thread on the topic on the damage dealing forums and I have been contributing to it.
Thanks Rounced, I will definitely make a post after we have an updated wim with the 2% WF glyph and we can post hard numbers for them to review.
Tukez any way we can get an updated option for this in the sim in the near future? We shouldn't remove the 5% glyph just yet but just tag them as 5% and 2% respectively.
Has anyone made a post on the wow forums yet? I am sure that GC would be interested to know that the new BiS weapon will be ToHF, assuming no other changes are made. Another question assuming this goes forward does berserker stay the enchant of choice? I would sim it myself however I am at work currently. I am wondering if a straight spell power enchant on both weapons using ToHF and WD would offer the highest dps
I don't have ToHF, but I am using wraith strike as my main hand with Hand of Nerub as my off with FT/FT. I come out to having SP as being worth around 1.5 AP making the SP enchant worth 94.5 AP and I think beserking has a high enough uptime to come out ahead still.
I don't have ToHF, but I am using wraith strike as my main hand with Hand of Nerub as my off with FT/FT. I come out to having SP as being worth around 1.5 AP making the SP enchant worth 94.5 AP and I think beserking has a high enough uptime to come out ahead still.
I have a sneaking suspicion that when using a more suitable MH(faster) and a WD in the offhand it would augment that amount of spell damage being done and inflate the EP of SP and give us something more competitive with Berserking. I suppose when I get home I can make a gear set in rawr or chardev to get the stats with ToHF and WD then sim it with both enchants. Just have to get off work first :P
They don't need to fix our spelldamage, they just need to fix Flametongue. If the coefficient would scale with weapon base speed, for example 10% at 2.5 speed, 7.2% at 1.8 speed and so on, slow/slow wf/ft would be the best setup and everything would be fine.
I've posted that before in more than one thread...but have you ever known blizz to pay attention and fix things properly instead of randomly breaking something else?
Funnily enough, the current FT scaling has fixed all our OH weapon woes in allowing all speeds to be competitive...the problem is the bright folks here extending it to MH as well and finding a dps increase. Not a problem in my eyes ofc (I'm all for thinking outside the box with builds, gear etc.) but blizz have such a low tolerance for it they'd go to great lengths to prevent it, like they did with LvB and MW...and like they almost did with MQ.
Sadly there isnt really a solution...fix FT scaling and we're forced to use nothing but slow OH's again, making dual FT's not stack probably won't be sufficient, making FT usable on OH only would screw over the elementals and making WF usable on MH only wouldn't prevent FT being used with caster weapon. Hence why I think they'll simply take a hammer to our spelldmg...quickest and easiest way to prevent us straying from their pre-determined path. (unless they think to make it so you can't use the same imbue on both weapons...that would force WF/FT without breaking elemental MH FT)
And given that the folks here are advocating the death of WF...they're bound to sit up and take notice.
Is the new Glyph of Windfury with it's 2% increased proc rate in the next patch going to be worth the major glyph at all? I'm curious if it would be able to beat out Glyph of Flametongue weapon then in 3.0.9
Elemental Mastery - Lightning Bolt - Die - Reincarnation - Lightning Bolt - Lightning Overload Procs - Die
I am sure that GC would be interested to know that the new BiS weapon will be ToHF, assuming no other changes are made. Another question assuming this goes forward does berserker stay the enchant of choice?
I hope I don't come off as arrogant by saying this, but this was probably always the case. I had posted evidence (sim, boss and dummy) that this was the case before 3.0.8 came out. After 3.0.8, CG unfortunately hasn't ever dropped for me and I had Haunting Call so I wasn't in a hurry to sim it all out again. However, from the numbers I wouldn't have been surprised if it was the case for 3.0.8 as well. 11000 lightning bolt crits are super nice.
Anyways, unless something changed somehow, Berserker is still better than the spell power enchants, but they are still very good. (Spell damage weight doesn't really go over ~1.7 so ~110 ep)
Edit: FT/FT as it stand right now keeps me competing and/beating with mages/warriors depending on the fight anyways, so it's good enough for me. I've hit 5300dps on patchwerk, and that is with more than half 10man gear. Hopefully this whole thing will make people stop trying to talk down to me because I'm using a caster weapon with a melee enchant on it...
Is the new Glyph of Windfury with it's 2% increased proc rate in the next patch going to be worth the major glyph at all? I'm curious if it would be able to beat out Glyph of Flametongue weapon then in 3.0.9
depends on your gear. If you have a fast caster weapon from KT available then you will be using FT/FT and there would be no point to using the WF glyph. Even with a wrathstrike there wouldn't be much of a point to sticking to Windfury Weapon on the mainhand since using FT/FT will net you just about the same dps.
Oh and from what I've just seen from playing with the Sim, if you are using FT/FT then +63 spellpower is better then berzerker.
MMO Champ stated they were "Unofficial Glyph Changes" which means that, while not in the patch notes, they were spotted as changes in the actual data files. We'll have to wait til the servers or up or ask our EU buddies, but it could be a possible stealth nerf.
Double flame tongue look better in theory what it really is. Sim don't model hidden internal cooldown. I tested how many percentage of procs we lose. I used 1.8s caster mh and 2.5s melee oh. I attacked 80lvl dummy with wf totem and using only auto + instant attacks. Result were 601 ft proc. 786 melee hit. This mean that flame tongue did have only 76.4% proc. This is about -350dps if you use double flametongue. Wf is still superior choise. They just normalized glyph.
I hope I don't come off as arrogant by saying this, but this was probably always the case. I had posted evidence (sim, boss and dummy) that this was the case before 3.0.8 came out. After 3.0.8, CG unfortunately hasn't ever dropped for me and I had Haunting Call so I wasn't in a hurry to sim it all out again. However, from the numbers I wouldn't have been surprised if it was the case for 3.0.8 as well. 11000 lightning bolt crits are super nice.
Anyways, unless something changed somehow, Berserker is still better than the spell power enchants, but they are still very good. (Spell damage weight doesn't really go over ~1.7 so ~110 ep)
Edit: FT/FT as it stand right now keeps me competing and/beating with mages/warriors depending on the fight anyways, so it's good enough for me. I've hit 5300dps on patchwerk, and that is with more than half 10man gear. Hopefully this whole thing will make people stop trying to talk down to me because I'm using a caster weapon with a melee enchant on it...
Yeah I had simmed it last night (using chardev.org - a World of Warcraft Character Planner - x) dual berserking did come out on top but by less than people would have guess I imagine. I have all of the config file and output file info on my laptop at home. I just hadn't sorted it all enough to post it last night. But the results I observed were:
You lose 33 spellpower to using different ranks of Flametongue and about 10 damage per swing with one of the weapons. The coefficient is still the same so you get the same bonus from spellpower. Since you have more offhand stikes due to Lava Lash you would use rank 10 on your offhand and rank 9 on your mainhand.
According to the Sim the spellpower loss from using the lower rank will cost you ~24dps and since the PPM rate on Flametongue is 148 - 8 from Lava Lash = 140 so if we split that in half that's 70 procs per minute losing 10 damage or ~12dps. Total lost to using different ranks, 36 dps.
Running my current gear but with ToHF and Webbed Death I'm showing 6012dps. When we take the different ranks into account that's ~5976dps.
Running CG + Webbed Death with the current glyph I get 5947dps. Removing the glyph brings it down to 5811. So the current glyph is worth about 136dps, 2/5s of that is 54dps. That puts CG + WD at about 5865dps.
5976dps>5865dps
Utters, I also ran the enchants and was also surprised by how well +63 spellpower compared to Berzerker. At least it makes it easier to grab a Torch knowing that I can enchant it with spellpower and even if Blizzard fixes Windfury in 3.1 it will still be a great weapon for a Resto offset without requiring me to reenchant it.
Making the obvious fix removing the benefit of different ranks of Flametongue to reduce the overall effectiveness of the FT/FT combo. They had to do the same thing with Windfury when people were using two different ranks to avoid the cooldown, how is this any different? Does the FT Rank 10/FT Rank 10 squeeze out ahead of the WF/FT? I'll work some sims on my end to see how it looks, but I'm inclined to believe they'll disallow the multi-ranking FT first.
I just posted this post to the current thread on the WoW damage dealing forums, which Rounced has already linked in this thread. I'm not certain this is the appropriate place to post, but I do not yet have privileges to start threads and this seems to be the dominant discussion on this thread atm.
Originally Posted by Jonnaei
I like the idea of changing the current mechanics of windfury wep to a PPM mechanic also, but it seems to me that it still only addresses part of the scaling issue.
What PPM fixes is the lack of scaling that WF damage sees from adding haste. However, WF still doesn't scale with AP/Spell damage. I would propose, in addition to the PPM change, making the WF effect to provide damage based on a multiplier of weapon damage or an increase of AP by a % of a shaman's AP. Whether it be 110% weapon damage or adding 5/10/20% of AP could be worked out. I don't care to do the math because the specific number is not important. The point is that we would see true scaling of WF through all levels of gear.
Allowing WF to scale with haste is all well and good, but it seems to me that allowing the damage to scale appropriately with AP is more significant. As we get into higher levels of gear, the amount of AP added to WF attacks becomes less and less significant and seems to just continue the scaling problem we are seeing where flametongue surpasses WF currently at certain levels of gear.
I propose a combination of several suggestions that have been voiced in this thread already.
Changing the WF mechanic from an internal cooldown to a PPM proc would allow us to scale WF with haste. Changing the damage added to WF attacks from flat AP to either 110% weapon damage (just a number used to illustrate the idea) or adding 10% AP to the attack (again, random number to illustrate) would allow us to scale with our bread and butter stat through all gear levels. Finally, fix the flametongue coefficient to properly scale with weapon damage so that slower weapons will be competitive on flametongue damage alone with the lightning knife offhands. This means that slow offhands would become competitive again and would not be useless across all classes. It also would provide synergy in what we look for in offhands between our flametongue damage and our lava lash damage.
These 3 changes together could fix the class and how it seems blizzard wants shamans to work, imo.
So what do you guys think? Obviously the ppm idea and flametongue fix are hardly new ideas, but it seems to me that we still have a large scaling issue with WF damage due to the flat AP applied to WF attacks. I think changing that mechanic would be huge in salvaging WF and I hope GC is monitoring that thread and taking all the feedback to heart.
Making the obvious fix removing the benefit of different ranks of Flametongue to reduce the overall effectiveness of the FT/FT combo. They had to do the same thing with Windfury when people were using two different ranks to avoid the cooldown, how is this any different? Does the FT Rank 10/FT Rank 10 squeeze out ahead of the WF/FT? I'll work some sims on my end to see how it looks, but I'm inclined to believe they'll disallow the multi-ranking FT first.
Except the difference is that with Windfury Weapon using different ranks was removing an intentional cooldown. Flametongue Weapon is supposed to give you that proc on every melee hit, says it right on the tooltip. The fact that it doesn't is a bug with how the imbue works.
Didn't we think Windfury was bugged once upon a time? All they have to do is change a couple words and you've make Flametongue match up with the functionality of Windfury.
Change:
Each hit causes Fire damage, based on the speed of the weapon. Slower weapons cause more fire damage per swing. Lasts 30 minutes.
To:
Each hit has a 75% chance to cause additional Fire damage, based on the speed of the weapon. Slower weapons cause more fire damage per swing. Lasts 30 minutes.
Would that solve the problem and allow Physical weapons back in the game? So much for making Shaman theorycrafting easier!
Edit: This gives Blizzard a throttle for FT DPS and also allows them to have another option for future glyphs.
Didn't we think Windfury was bugged once upon a time? All they have to do is change a couple words and you've make Flametongue match up with the functionality of Windfury.
Change:
Each hit causes Fire damage, based on the speed of the weapon. Slower weapons cause more fire damage per swing. Lasts 30 minutes.
To:
Each hit has a 75% chance to cause additional Fire damage, based on the speed of the weapon. Slower weapons cause more fire damage per swing. Lasts 30 minutes.
Would that solve the problem and allow Physical weapons back in the game? So much for making Shaman theorycrafting easier!
Edit: This gives Blizzard a throttle for FT DPS and also allows them to have another option for future glyphs.
The problem with that is that it can be fixed much more elegantly with a speed determined coefficient change. Rather than a clunky and confusing change to the FT procrate.
02/09/09, 5:01 PM
The next issue that comes up is now you have a need for more slow off-hand weapons, which are useless for any other class/spec (except maybe hunters if itemized properly) and single spec drops are something that they have really pushed away from. They'd have to turn all the slow MH weapons in to One-Hand to compensate. We can keep solving Blizzard's problems for them until the cows come home and hope that there are hidden reasons why changes that seem logical to us wouldn't work and that's why they aren't making them.
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