[Elemental] SEIC Spreadsheet - v3

• Binkenstein · 12/01/08, 11:13 PM

Spreadsheet = dead. I'm not continuing it, do with it what you will.

Yeah, ok, so I'm making a new one, for three reasons: 1) I wanted to get a decent model working for the new rotations, a-la the Shadow Priest spreadsheet, 2) I haven't been able to find a C# dev to work with for a Rawr plugin, and 3) I was spending too much time fiddling with lootrank.com & wowheads stat weighting function, and I wasn't happy with how either works.

Doing a complete rebuild this time around, currently working on a UI concept to make things easier to use and reduce the amount of code/formulae to write & maintain, and the rotation listing which will list each spell individually, account for hit/crit/clearcasting/overload/FS dots & LvB interaction with & without Flame Shock glyph, use 500 spell casts (might extend this to 1000) and then replicate this for calculating stat EP values.

Still got a bit of work to do on the rotation side of things before I make a copy available, but I thought I'd let people know what I was up to.

Also, I'm toying with a google-doc item submission spreadsheet, where anyone can enter in gear details to be added in. This is partially to reduce any "you're missing item X" spam, and hopefully reduce the amount of work I have to do on entering items, so I can do functionality stuff instead. Item lists are no longer used/required. A hyperlink is generated to put EP values directly into Wowhead.

EP Values can be found on the Math tab, or by looking for cells named depstam, depint, depspell, dephit, depcrit, dephaste (you get the idea)

Hint: DEP = Damage Equivalence Points aka "how much dps does this give me for every point of stat X?"

Also, please ask questions in this thread rather than sending me a PM. Odds are, others are also asking those questions, and it's easier to respond to 1 thread than umpteen dozen PMs (if I reply to them at all).

Updates can now be found at http://elitistjerks.com/blogs/binkenstein/

Samou · 12/02/08, 11:32 AM

I've not worked in C#, but I work with C/C++ and Java. I don't think it should be a big stretch. If a Rawr module would be preferable, I'd be willing to help out.

• Binkenstein · 12/02/08, 4:07 PM

By all means, have a shot.

I'm still planning on putting this spreadsheet together, and I guess having two different systems could work out better than just one.
Head over here to get started. Let me know if you need TC help.

• Binkenstein · 12/02/08, 10:43 PM

Question: What are peoples thoughts on using RNG to see whether crits occur, or including an average crit bonus into each spellcast.

The advantage of using RNG is that it can be a better model, but the down side is that it causes EP values to vary a bit.

Agash · 12/03/08, 5:40 AM

I think it depends on how accurately you model the non-RNG method as far as procs are concerned (clearcastng and gear procs primarily). If you model those in such a way as they allow correctly for these procs dropping off then the non-RNG method would be give more stable results. If you are unable to model them accurately then an RNG based method will produce more variable but more accurate results.

Laupen · 12/03/08, 6:52 AM

I'm not 100% sure I've fully understood, but am I correct in thinking with RNG, you'd have to run the same simulation a number of times in order to get an idea of your actual expected DPS? For example, running it first time and with an input of 50% crit chance, it may come out as 55% and it may come out as 45%?

Personally, I'd prefer to have the result predictable so you only needed to run a simulation once to see a DPS figure for a gear set/talent spec in terms of comparing, otherwise you may be going down the route of running the simulation 100 times for each set and having to work out the average obtained for each before determining the optimum.

However, would it be an awful amount of coding to have the option to do either? It's cool to know the theoretical DPS you should be putting out, but it's also nice to have an idea of the upper and lower limits for when the in game RNG gods are just toying with you. Just a thought!

Ulthwithian · 12/03/08, 10:24 AM

For myself, I prefer a simulation that mimics the real situation as closely as possible. Thus, I would prefer using the RNG if possible.

The issue with using Expected Value calculations is that it does not show variability, and thus may give misleading results. Being able to say that this spec/gear combination does between X and Y dps, and this one does between (X + 50) and (Y - 50) dps. gives more information than just single numbers.

• Binkenstein · 12/03/08, 3:28 PM

True, but with EV calculations, I could simly generate figures for +/- 5% crit.
However, I think that EV will be the "middle of the road" figure, while RNG will be "It's somewhere between Max & Min, but I can't tell you where" unless I go to the extreme that is SimCraft.
As the goal is to procude EP figures to evaluate items with, EV calculations will be more dependable, and involve less repetition (the spreadsheet is already 3Mb without item listings).

Anyway, I've got the Damage Points sorted (and I plan on putting Sustainability Points in as well, but this will be more of a reference only, as I see little point in combining the two together anymore) so the next step is to finalise the item template, get Gems setup correctly, and then start on the item lookups.

• Binkenstein · 12/03/08, 9:15 PM

Me again :o

http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?k...LrHsjIfQ&hl=en This is the item submission form. It's a google spreadsheet which anyone can edit, so if you think I'm missing an item (which is pretty much everything at this stage) put it up here so I can copy/paste it over.

Progress wise, gems are in and working now, and formulae are shorter/simpler for calculating item values.

dedmonwakeen · 12/03/08, 9:25 PM

After countless hours working on a simulation solution...... I still believe that formulation is the better model when crafting an app for the end user.

Comprehensive simulation is best used to provide a baseline against which formulation models can be compared.

While variance is usually something unique to simulation, I do not believe it outweighs the benefits of speed and determinism that formation provides. The value of real-time response in an end-user app cannot be underestimated.

I run on monster 16-way behemoths..... so generating trustworthy data from simulation for a raid isn't too difficult for me..... but even the most serious theorycrafters often lack access to hardware like this.

lostmymojo · 12/03/08, 10:30 PM

Originally Posted by Binkenstein

Me again :o

http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?k...LrHsjIfQ&hl=en This is the item submission form. It's a google spreadsheet which anyone can edit, so if you think I'm missing an item (which is pretty much everything at this stage) put it up here so I can copy/paste it over.

Progress wise, gems are in and working now, and formulae are shorter/simpler for calculating item values.

sent a request in for access. Ill have lots of time in the next few weeks to add things.

• Binkenstein · 12/03/08, 11:18 PM

Yeah, saw that, although you shouldn't actually need colaborator status to update that. I set permissions to "allow users to edit without signing in".

Thogra · 12/04/08, 3:45 AM

works, filled up 3 rows for testing

Ezareth · 12/04/08, 11:17 AM

Originally Posted by Binkenstein

Yeah, ok, so I'm making a new one, for three reasons: 1) I wanted to get a decent model working for the new rotations, a-la the Shadow Priest spreadsheet, 2) I haven't been able to find a C# dev to work with for a Rawr plugin, and 3) I was spending too much time fiddling with lootrank.com & wowheads stat weighting function, and I wasn't happy with how either works.

Doing a complete rebuild this time around, currently working on a UI concept to make things easier to use and reduce the amount of code/formulae to write & maintain, and the rotation listing which will list each spell individually, account for hit/crit/clearcasting/overload/FS dots & LvB interaction with & without Flame Shock glyph, use 500 spell casts (might extend this to 1000) and then replicate this for calculating stat EP values.

Still got a bit of work to do on the rotation side of things before I make a copy available, but I thought I'd let people know what I was up to.

Also, I'm toying with a google-doc item submission spreadsheet, where anyone can enter in gear details to be added in. This is partially to reduce any "you're missing item X" spam, and hopefully reduce the amount of work I have to do on entering items, so I can do functionality stuff instead.

Updates
Dec 4th: Gem system finished.

Wow. And I thought I was a spreadsheet whore. My wife bitches at me for spending time working out formulae on spreadsheets for DPS, but if she saw something like this she'd lay an egg I think.

Nice job Bink.

On the items I would just keep it to the top 5 or 6 best in slot items, and leave the plugin your item option for people with blues. Within the next month blues are going to be eliminated for most of us so no point in doing a lot of work for something of limited use.

fandros · 12/05/08, 3:01 PM

First off thank you for this.
Second I think the way the current sheet values hit is missleading. I changed (Current!N7+0.83) to 1 just so I could see the value of hitrating below the cap. I do see a use for using the current forumla if the 200 is not a fixed value. Then you could see how much losing x amount of hit about the cap plus y amount below will effect your dps from a gear change.

• Binkenstein · 12/05/08, 11:56 PM

Hit was something that I threw together to get some approximate values to work with.
May put an option in to value/de-value hit, or have separate DEP values for hit/no hit.

Samou · 12/08/08, 2:37 PM

As a side note, I've begun work on the Rawr Elemental module. I'd post this in it's own thread, but I've been registered for over a year now, and have only recently begun posting, thus I haven't reached the post count to start my own threads.

Kishkegelt · 12/11/08, 2:11 PM

Does the current (3.081211) SEIC include, as the name maybe implies, the new patch changes to elemental?

• Binkenstein · 12/11/08, 3:31 PM

The version number is v3.date at this stage, so it is a build from the 11th of Dec, 08. But yes, I updated it a while ago to account for what we had previously been told the changes were going to be.

• Binkenstein · 12/20/08, 10:50 PM

Holy updates Batman!

Hope the new Wowhead link goes down well.

Humongus · 12/23/08, 2:51 PM

Is there a 101-guide to using this spreadsheet? There isn't a documentation tab...

I consider myself a pretty advanced .xlsx guy but this model has a pretty steep learning curve in my opinion for those who haven't been following its evolution for some time.

Regards -

ruizAw · 12/23/08, 7:08 PM

Crit
23
Haste
34
Hit
100
Int
27
mp5
0
Spell
60

int > crit ?

• Binkenstein · 12/24/08, 12:07 AM

Originally Posted by Humongus

Is there a 101-guide to using this spreadsheet? There isn't a documentation tab...

I consider myself a pretty advanced .xlsx guy but this model has a pretty steep learning curve in my opinion for those who haven't been following its evolution for some time.

Regards -

You enter your stats on the first page, change glyphs/set bonuses, and set buffs/talents on the settings tab. Then you can use the EP values on a site, or click the wowhead link. It's pretty easy, so if that's too hard, maybe you should return your computer to a store, or at least stop calling yourself a "pretty advanced XLSX guy".

Originally Posted by ruizAw

Crit
23
Haste
34
Hit
100
Int
27
mp5
0
Spell
60

int > crit ?

Uh.... download the new one?

doogless · 12/24/08, 2:17 AM

How accurate is the DPS the spreadsheet lists? I'm curious if it's not completely worked out yet or if I'm just terrible (or both).

• Binkenstein · 12/24/08, 2:27 AM

As accurate as I can work it for 3.0.8, although I know I haven't added resist mitigation back in yet, so you can shave another 3% off the top, roughly.