Think I've figured out where the electrified calculations were going off. I'd managed to double-dip on crit multipliers. New version up sometime soon.

WWS can't tell the difference between LB and LO LB (use WMO or WoL), and 4T8 does not proc for LO LB.

3.1.2.16: Fixed T8 4pc calculation, set standard internal trinket cooldown

Looking at the SEIC 3.1.2.16 cell D4 has the following

MAX(IF(I34="Yes",0.1*J34,0),IF(I41="Yes",280*(1+glyphtow*0.3),0))+211*(1+0.1*N22)

Which implies that the glyphtow buff would not stack with demonic pact if the overall gain from demonic pact > 280*1.3. Is that really the case? I was under the impression that the personal buff from the glyph would stack with anything - but then in an actual raid the buff bars are ever changing and jumping around and, well, I am a tad busy to examine them in minute detail.

I love this spreadsheet, but I was hoping to use Rawr.Elemental to help with some gear comparison choices. For example, the SEIC Wowhead link suggests to me another pair of pants as a huge upgrade over another that I'm wearing. I see a 40 Score on the non-hit link, and the ones I'm wearing give a 30 Score on the with-hit link. That leads me to believe that if I didn't need the hit, I'd be much better off with the new legs. So I just got ahold of a +hit trinket and +hit ring. One I know is an upgrade, one I THINK is an upgrade. Even if I guess a new configuration... dropping hit from my legs and upping hit with my ring/trinket, I don't know how to use SEIC to tell me if it's better or worse than my old configuration.

So from that point... I figure Rawr.Elemental is perfect because its Optimize feature is used for exactly that. However once I plugged in my information, it told me the legs I was considering were complete trash compared to my current ones :P But... the SEIC Wowhead link scores them way higher. What am I supposed to think?

I understand that Rawr.Elemental isn't very up-to-date, but is there some way I can do something to get some confidence? If I hop on a target dummy I'm just going to miss like crazy (we always raid with the +hit debuffs) and not get good numbers. What should I do to be confident and ensure I'm configuring optimally? Thanks!

v2.2.6 of Rawr is implementing haste incorrectly, to the point where the majority of the time it's giving it haste a negative value. So if the pants in question have any haste on them, then there's your disparity. But remember, both Rawr and the spreadsheets are tools to help you make the decision of what to wear.

Quick heads up on the newest version. The Totem of Hex (and thus Ancestral Guidance as well) is showing up as having 0 EP value. The spreadsheet currently is counting Totem of Hex in both the comparison calculations, whereas it shouldn't be counted in LB/LO calculations for the first (aka, no Totem of Hex) calcs (cells I174/I175).

One other thing I'm curious about is that Shamanism is being given full scaling to Lightning Overload, and not being halved by the inherent nature of LO to be 1/2 of LB. Is this the way it's supposed to be or should LO be exactly 1/2 of LB?

Uh.... no. I'm not going to hold your hands and tell you what to do (although I am working on something to make the hit/non-hit gear comparison easier). Also remember that Wowhead scales their item weights so that the highest value = 100, making hit and non-hit comparisons useless. Use lootrank for that sort of thing.
Must have missed that with the LB calc changes.
LO is indeed calculated that way, as we've discussed here and was mentioned here too.

Would like to confirm one observation. When evaluating trinkets, I'm to disregard their static equip benefits from the paper doll stats in order to avoid double counting of such benefits? Say Illustration vs. Eye of the Brood Mother?

More specifically, it seems better to input stat values without trinkets and then add trinket values from the list on top of what the spreadsheet spurts out, right?

There's no trinket use in the models, so you can handle it however you want.

Has anyone done any testing with Totem of Electrifying Winds on PTR? So far I've seen two reports, one claiming that there's no internal cooldown (meaning the totem would have near 100% uptime) and one claiming there might be a 20 second internal cooldown (meaning the totem would have around 60% uptime). I see Binkie put a 95% assumed uptime into the spreadsheet, so no confirmation there either.

Try re-reading change notes and remember that I'm using my stats in it, which of course will change over time. In short: check your settings before complaining.

I have not been comparing your stats in the different versions of the spreadsheet, but my own. And they are all exactly the same ofc.

And the list of changes in 3.2 patch notes for elem shamans doesn't seem that long. We, elem shamans, are not even mentioned there. If you are referring to the changes of your spreadsheet from v16 to v17 change notes v17 it doesn't effect my character as i dont have t9 set bonuses or special racials.

In v16 my most valuable stat to improve is sp, in v17 it is totally haste (same stats filled in etc). I am trying to figure out what change in game mechanics this has caused.

<edit> Maybe it is caused because the downloadable version v16 doesn't show any values for Astral Guidance and Hex and might be broken? Still, if i enter 0 for Hex it lowers my dps considerably so even though it doesnt show it, it seems to be taken along in the calculation</edit>

Something unrelated to the current discussion, but about the value of hit:

Would it be possible to compare the value of hit to the value of crit, since hit replaces crit on most gear and it is our 'weakest stat'?

The way I get to our hitcap is by wearing gear with hit on it so that I can dump as much crit as possible. I do not gem, enchant or use trinkets with hit for that reason.

Feel free to let me know if this is a redundant comment, I just haven't seen anyone looking at hit this way in all my days lurking on these forums, but the last thing I want to do is insult anyone's intelligence.

Of course there are going to be differences between the different versions. The correct calculations for Overload didn't come in until v15, T8 4pc calculations were fixed in v16, which will all make changes to how things are valued. If you really think something is "wrong", go look at how the calculations are handled yourself and then come back to me with some concrete information.
Yes, this is a redundant comment, since I'm using DEP values as my base point, which means Damage Equiv Points, aka 1 point of this gives X extra DPS

In the past Bink added 200 to each stat to determine the DEP. In this newest version he only added 1 to each stat. Maybe this is why there is a difference to the final DEP calculations.

The spreadsheet assumes you are hitcapped already, would it be possible to calculate the value of hit in relation to crit for people who are hitcapped?

You're not understanding what I'm saying.

Adjusting the hit value dynamically based on what you had already was a very long and inaccurate process. The simple answer is to give a hit value assuming 1% miss, and let you work out how to handle it (there are hit inclusive and exclusive Lootrank/Wowhead links and Pawn values there). Secondly, I use 1 dps as my base point so you can say "hit is worth X dps per point, while crit is worth Y dps per point" and be able to compare from there. I will not give any direct stat to stat comparisons, and if this isn't what you want, too bad (seriously, if you can't do an X/Y calculation to get the hit:crit value ratio then you should probably stop using the spreadsheet).

So am I correct in saying that haste is better than spellpower? I may not be understanding these values correctly, but that is what I'm seeing. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Did you get what I meant in the first place? Not to be snappy (really). It seems like you're only ever talking about a value for hit under the hitcap, while over the hitcap new items with hit on them still have a value for hit since you're able to dump crit that way.

I guess it's not a straight X/Y comparison, since anyone can derive that info for spellpower, haste and crit from the spreadsheet indeed, but not for hit over cap. For example: the trinket section is quite confusing because of that. ...or not and someone needs to explain it to me. Dying Curse just does not look better than Scale of Fates to me yet it is higher on the list. Is the trinketlist only for people under hitcap, or am I making wrong fundamental assumptions about how the trinketlist works and what it represents?

I might have been dragging this on for too long now though. I might not yet have a good understanding of the spreadsheet and it's formulae, but is 'dumping crit on gear with hit on gear' a good thing to do anyway? If so, is it mentioned in the Think Tank?

I realize how putting myself out here can make me look uninformed and dumb, but I'm eager to learn and couldn't resist taking a chance on hoping to contribute. Maybe assuming that a relative newcomer could have something to contribute was my mistake, but thanks for being civil, taking the time to reply and explain things Bink.

1) Dynamic hit valuation = gone. Never going to happen again. You manage the hit cap however you feel is best.
2) "Hit over the cap" = zero. It has no value there.
3) Trinkets have Hit and No Hit values. Try sorting the list by the other column (there are macros there to do that for you)
4) I don't understand what you mean by "dumping crit on gear with hit on gear" unless you're suggesting swapping items with crit on them for items with hit on them (or vice versa). In which case you've completely mis-understood the whole aim of having two EP valuations (ie: if item A has hit, and has a higher non-hit value than B, use A. If it's the reverse, you may want to use A for your hit set, etc...)
5) Yes, it does make you look dumb, but I guess you're making that same classic mistake so many people make these days (Hi, I'm new, I want to contribute and validate my place on this forum/in life/whatever).