panny

You cant just count procs to determine uptime, Mongoose can refresh itself. It's annoying, we really should have a solid estimate for Mongoose uptime somewhere, but I can't seem to find it. From memory, ~30% sounds right, but I can't be sure.

And yeah, I agree with Zyla, I'm used to doing a bit of tanking, and with a shield, SR, MW heals and Spirit Wolf health regen, you can definitely hold something for awhile.

 

Nevets_69

While I agree with you, I've even ended up tanking a loose drake in the 10man version for a solid 15 seconds while the tank was busy. Generally however, if we're tanking then something is going wrong. And even if it is useful, Berzerker is so good that you're giving up quite a lot to be able to tank occasionally. If it's really that important, carry a second set of weapons to use when you know you might have to tank adds. I think most people are going to have a second set of weapons for Arena anyway, since no one is going to want Berzerker in there.

Elemental Shaman: You're OOM.
Enhancement Shaman: So are you.

 

Rouncer

I explained this above but it might be easier if you see it for yourself.

Wow Web Stats

The buffs/debuffs window said I had 9 Lightning Speed procs on that patchwerk, so refreshing does need to be taken into account. Good thing browsing log file shows those too.

That was with dub goose.

Also a shaman was nice enough to send me a parse of zerker on an offhand for patchwerk. Currently I would say it's proc rate is more then likely going to end up the same as goose but I will need more parses to confirm.

He had 40% uptime on the offhand. He raids with a Pally also with zerker on a single weapon who had a 41% uptime.

I would bet money that it will end up that both enchants have a 1PPM mechanic that uses base weapon speed (so it would scale from haste like MW) and that can proc from Windfury hits.

Alt mage - Rounce

 

Vesham

As much utility as that would bring, it's not really what the spec or class is meant for. I suggest you leave the off-tanking to a plate wearing class and concentrate on increasing your own damage or raid damage. You are, after all, meant to play a support/dps class as an Enhancement shaman.

Elemental Mastery - Lightning Bolt - Die - Reincarnation - Lightning Bolt - Lightning Overload Procs - Die

 

Mem

One problem I see with using accuracy is the aspect that it will only perform similarly to zerking if you sport the right stats. Its pretty obvious that unless the itemization is going to be really weird that we will be able to cap hit even without gemming/enchanting for it. Even if you have to use a gem or two, finetuning it via hybrid gems is often much easier than working with the 25 rating chunk that accuracy represents.
If you are really far below cap without using gems/enchants, accuracy is viable. But once you have to reevaluate each of your slot after an upgrade because you just got above or below the caps accuracy will get worse. Also, with the presence of an additional plate wearing class as well as pretty survivable hunter pets offtanking is really a side issue at best.

If you really really want to cover that base, get yourself a spare tanking shield (or your healing shield, if it sports more AC) and a weapon with mongoose and macro it to a keybind. You might not do as much damage but frostshock will generate more aggro than any healer and you will definitely get even tougher.

 

Volodymyr

Zyla, you are correct. This is definately not a real consideration for some of us who have double berserker for min/max purposes.

Although, after a couple years of leather and seeing my Armor at the low levels of 5k, being able to shield up to 19k and pop SR and have 20% + dodge buffed, is rather fun.

This is rarely an issue, as with the touch of a button your DK becomes the perfect portal tank.

 

Daenerys

10-man PW from last night (I have 'Zerker on MH only atm): Wow Web Stats

Hope this helps with the maths. Looks like I got 8 procs in the 3'24" the fight took.

Edit - Yeah, WF on the MH.

 

Rouncer

Thanks!

That's perfect.

So you had a 59% uptime with a mainhand enchant and I'm guessing you were using Windfury on the mainhand.

That would be consistant with the notion that windfury is capable of proccing the weapon enchants.

So it seems like a 40% uptime for the offhand and a 60% uptime for mainhand would be relatively consistant with the data I've been looking at, although still need more parses before we can really say anything conclusively.

Alt mage - Rounce

 

ganrak

25 man Patchwerk from Wed night 'Zerker on the OH. FT on the OH. Hope its helpful.

WWS Link

 

Rouncer

Very helpful thank you.

So you had 29% uptime with zerker on the offhand with FT.

Another parse I just got showed zerker with 27% on the offhand also with FT.

Would love a few parses with mongoose on the offhand and zerker on the mainhand using WF/FT to help validate if they both use the same basic mechanic.

Also it is looking like Windfury is definitely doing it's thing (recently received a parse with 70% goose uptime on just a mainhand with windfury) and we will need separate values for mainhand and for offhand for both Goose and Zerker.

Alt mage - Rounce

 

Jules_AA

Patchy 25man. Flametongue and zerking on offhand.

WWS

 

Bargle

Thaddius w/ Berserking/WF MH and Mongoose/FT OH.

WWS

5:45 combat length:
Mongoose uptime ~22.7% (6 total procs, 2 refreshes)
Berserking uptime ~56% (20 total procs, 11 refreshes)


Oh, and don't bother looking at logs for any fights before that one...instance was lagged to all hell.

 

Protico

What is causing the reduced uptime for OH vs MH on proc based enchants? If this works the way I think it does shouldn't LL basically cancel out WF on MH and SS be able to proc either one? White damage should be a wash also...I am probably missing something.

e. Ok, not "cancel out" but certainly bring them closer than 2:1.

 

Daenerys

Could miss rate have something to do with it? I'm not 100% how those mechanics work, but that was my best guess.

 

Protico

Untalented/unmodified OH miss 28% MH miss 9%. At MH cap that is 19% / 0%. It could account for some but probably not all of the almost 2:1 uptime difference.

 

Rouncer

Nope, that's really not how it works at all.

It's a 28% miss rate on bosses for ALL white hits when you are dual wielding, doesn't matter if the main hand or the offhand is hitting.

If it is a special attack then it is a 9% missrate.

Specials are Stormstrikes, Lava Lashes, and all Windfury Hits.

Why does mainhand proc more?

Windfury is 2 weapon hits while Lava Lash is 1 weapon hit. Also looking at the logs offered, most people give Lava Lash the lowest priority so the offhand hits much less frequently then it could be hitting.

What I think is really happening is that the system is programmed not to allow 2 weapon enchants to proc from a single Stormstrike. Windfury is already programmed to work that way. So if there is a mainhand proc of a weapon enchant during a stormstrike (and the mainhand is checked first according to all the previous testing) then the offhand check is skipped. That concept would require some time to validate/disprove so if anyone is up for it I would love to see some testing results. Run Zerker on one hand and Goose on the other and turn sideways to a targeting dummy and see if you ever get both weapon enchants to proc from the same Stormstrike, if you get both to proc even once then it proves the null hypothesis and my concept is debunked. It could also be done with dub goose since you are just looking to see if you ever get a double stack from the same Stormstrike, just would be easier to prove/disprove with the different enchants since then you would also be able to see if the mainhand is preferentially triggered as well (twice the testing in half the time).

Alt mage - Rounce

 

Protico

Hmm, people almost universally phrase it to sound like MH and OH have different hit rates, thanks for the enlightenment.

 

Vesham

Any idea on why the uptime for MH is so high compared to the OH, though? If the numbers are correct, I'm considering using Berserker MH and Accuracy OH so I can gem to expertise cap.

The only thing I could think of that would lead to such low numbers would be that Lava Lash doesn't proc the enchant, in which case, the MH's enchant would have a 2 hit advantage every 11 seconds.

Edit: Could anyone please provide more wws parses for Berserker on OH. With Bargle's numbers, Accuracy seems to be significantly better on the OH when not capped and a close second even after cap.

Elemental Mastery - Lightning Bolt - Die - Reincarnation - Lightning Bolt - Lightning Overload Procs - Die

 

Aknazer

If what people say about SS not being able to proc both enchants then could it be possible that the same is true for attacks that land at the same time? Maybe when both MH and OH hit at the same time it checks the MH first and if it procs it doesn't check to see if the OH procs?

http://sigs.guildlaunch.net/sig.php/712607NIdzh.png

 

Rouncer

Just received this WWS (Thank you)

Wow Web Stats

MH - Goose
uptime 36.5%

OH - Zerker
uptime 39.8%

I'm just going back to averaging it out to 40% for MH and OH until someone comes up with some more definitive tests to show that the variance is something more then just small sample sizes.

Alt mage - Rounce

 

Fcukstar

Mongoose can't be stacked anymore (ie: it can't be procced twice from your MH/OH to receive two speed buffs at once), correct? Has anyone been taking this into consideration? Wouldn't this suggest that Mongoose is really only viable on one hand and not two?

 

Rouncer

Mongoose stacks.

You are running with double goose on the weapons you have on the Armory so go beat on a Testing Dummy for a few minutes before spouting crap like that.

When I was testing mongoose that was one of the first things I checked.

Alt mage - Rounce

 

Staticus

I believe Executioner is being changed to arp rating next patch, lets hope they leave mongoose alone for good.

I wasn't really a fan of the armour reduction part of berserking anyway, especially with our talents allowing us to take hits a lot better than before. Plus I doubt I'll obtain 2 copies of each weapon just yet, and outland mats are cheap on my server so mongoose makes sense for now at least. I am aware that berserking is worth more dps though and if I do manage to obtain enough high-end weapons in the future (when northrend mats will also be cheaper) I'll probably use it.

 

darizra

The only factor that made me choose mongoose over berserking (right now) is the fact that I could find the mats for goose on AH for ~200-250g and the price of ONE abyss crystal is in that same range. One berseking = 3000g in mats = silly!

How much would speed of weapon help uptime of these procs? I'm currently using a dagger in OH because Stray/AD refuse to drop for me, would this be giving me higher uptimes? This would probably scale in the favor of berserking which is something to take into account as well

 

Rouncer

All other Armor Penetration was changed to rating so that makes me think that the change to executioner is merely the correction of an oversight not part of a plan to alter the previous enchants <fingers crossed>

Cost of Berzerker is irrelevant, this thread is just for a discussion of the relative values of the enchants as they relate to game play and not economic decisions. Whether the increase in dps is worth the gold it would cost to get that enchant is a purely personal value judgement.

As for weapon speeds, you actually have it backwards.

Goose and Zerker both work off a PPM mechanic. So if you were doing nothing but white attacks they would both have the same percentage of uptime no matter what weapon speed you were using. How it works is they get a percent chance to proc per weapon hit based on the weapon's speed, with a slower weapon having a higher percent chance to proc per hit. Instant attacks are the reason a slower weapon would have a higher uptime, since they utilize the same percent chance to proc as the white hits so an instant attack with a slow weapon will be more likely to proc.

Compare a 1.3 to a 2.6 with a 1PPM mechanic.

The 1.3 will have a 2.17% chance to proc per weapon hit and the 2.6 will have a 4.33% chance to proc per hit. Every stormstrike or lava lash will use that same proc chance. So with a 2.6 speed each of those instant attacks would have a 4.33% chance for a proc and with the 1.3 speed each would have a 2.17% chance to proc. This leads to an increased uptime for the slower weapon.

It's not a very large difference but it should mean that if you were using a fast offhand weapon with FT you would probably see more dps from Accuracy (if you are under the spell hit cap) then Mongoose, although Berzerker would beat either of them. With a slow offhand Mongoose should equal out with Accuracy (if you are under the spell hit cap) with Berzerker being more dps then either of them.

Alt mage - Rounce