Elitist Jerks [ELEMENTAL] Upcoming changes

12/16/08, 9:41 AM   #31
Mmootimus
Piston Honda

Tauren Shaman

Quel'Thalas (EU)
 Originally Posted by Binkenstein I'm going off the assumption that the glyph works in a similar fashion as empowerment talents do. If you have evidence to the contrary, please post it (with logs, math, etc)
The logs are gone, but I do still have some of the data, including the high/low values. One was deliberately to test the Glyph, the other to test the 4-pc bonus on T7 (which I confirmed in another thread was exactly as you predicted), but which can also serve as a comparison.

I will just do this for non-crits, as its easier.

The numbers below represent less than half of my overall data, I simply didn't keep all of it, especially values around the middle of the range.

Test 1 - 1688 spellpower

2620, 2593, 2821, 2929, 2629, 2900, 2607, 2605, 2910, 2594, 2918, 2587, 2582, 2931

High Value - 2931
Low Value - 2582

Test 2 - 2033 spellpower (had FT on this time for some reason)

2846, 3190, 3056, 3026, 3021, 3018, 2891, 3100, 3151, 2869, 2904

High Value - 3190
Low Value - 2846

Low Values Calcs
2582/1.11 (removing Lava flows and Concussion effects) = 2326
2846/1.11 = 2564

2326 - 1192 (lowest base dmg of LvB) = 1134
2564 - 1192 = 1372

1134/1688 (spellpower) = 0.6719 coefficient
1372/2033 (spellpower) = 0.6748 coefficient

High values Calcs
2931/1.11 = 2641
3190/1.11 = 2874

2641 - 1518 (highest base dmg of LvB) = 1123
2874 - 1518 = 1356

1123/1688 = 0.6650 coefficient
1356/2033 = 0.6669 coefficient

I know I haven't quite established the fullest ranges of possible Lava Burst hits in either case, but the 8 sec CD makes that a bit of an endurance test. Also, obviously you will just have to trust me that the numbers are genuine.

I would be grateful if someone could try and disprove this now. In theory it would just need one hit high enough to show a coefficient over 0.63 to prove it isn't multiplicative.

Edit: All tests were done ungrouped, unbuffed and with the Sundial trinket removed. I also did them in Thunder Bluff, so I had the target dummy to myself 100% of the time, and no extra buffs/debuffs were on it.

 12/16/08, 2:55 PM #32 Clown_Cracker Glass Joe   Ryton Tauren Shaman   Dunemaul I've been trying to do some math, and I'm trying to figure out if obtaining the 4p is still worth it next patch due to lightning bolt doing much more damage then it has in months. Considering there are considerable stat boosts that can be obtained from not getting the 4p.
12/16/08, 3:35 PM   #33
Ezareth
Don Flamenco

Goblin Mage

Tichondrius
 Originally Posted by Eightythree So is CL now dead for single target DPS?
 Originally Posted by Clown_Cracker I've been trying to do some math, and I'm trying to figure out if obtaining the 4p is still worth it next patch due to lightning bolt doing much more damage then it has in months. Considering there are considerable stat boosts that can be obtained from not getting the 4p.
Do you mean 4P T7 or T6?

 12/16/08, 5:09 PM #34 Clown_Cracker Glass Joe   Ryton Tauren Shaman   Dunemaul 4p t7, t6 would be too gimped of stats.
 12/17/08, 12:01 PM #35 Lintra Glass Joe   Annelida Draenei Shaman   Hyjal Clown - I am not sure I follow. Aside from boosting our survivability (stam), stats do next to nothing for us as mana has not been an issue. Do you mean other stats such as spell power, crit, etc? Or has there been a change I missed?
 12/18/08, 10:38 AM #36 Mmootimus Piston Honda     Mmootimus Tauren Shaman   Quel'Thalas (EU) I tried to do some PTR testing today, but its bugged to feck. I should have known it was a bad sign when there was a Necropolis still hovering over TB as I tested. Shamanism is resetting the talent points whenever you log out, but once you spend points in it, it is working even after you unlearn talents, or it does the bugged talent point refund. Its its also not working to full effect. I only tested it on LB, but I came out with a new coefficient of 0.7430. This is actually consistent with what you would expect assuming Shamanism is a multiplicative bonus, but bugged so that only the first two points are working ie. 0.714 normal coefficient x 1.04 (for 2/5 Shamanism) = 0.7429. I didn't try any other tests, as things seem so messed up.
12/18/08, 1:29 PM   #37
Montegomery
Aloof Aggravator

Sutiru

No WoW Account
Do you have the Lightning Bolt glyph? That would account for the 1.04x multiplier, and indicate Shamanism wasn't working at all.

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12/18/08, 2:11 PM   #38
Ezareth
Don Flamenco

Goblin Mage

Tichondrius
 Originally Posted by Clown_Cracker 4p t7, t6 would be too gimped of stats.
I don't know of any combination of gear that would not include at least 4 pieces of the Ilvl 213 gear....especially since most of our hit is coming from these.

12/18/08, 5:19 PM   #39
Mmootimus
Piston Honda

Tauren Shaman

Quel'Thalas (EU)
 Originally Posted by Darian_TruBlade Do you have the Lightning Bolt glyph? That would account for the 1.04x multiplier, and indicate Shamanism wasn't working at all.
No, as it sucks on live. And anyway, 4% increased dmg =/= 4% coefficient increase.

 12/19/08, 12:57 AM #40 Cortez Glass Joe   cortez Troll Shaman   <1rage1> Perenolde Two Questions: Now that Ele Mastery has been buffed is the glyph worth getting? When is this Patch! I really need the buffage lol
 12/19/08, 3:51 AM #41 Lohmarn Glass Joe   Lohmarn Troll Shaman   Zul'Jin I have to agree with Bink on the argument of which glyph is better, FT or Lava. DISCLAIMER: Not to be taken as gospel, this is a VERY VERY basic representation, not taking into account other variables. This is just showing spells and the bonus of the glyphs, nothing else. A easier description to understand would be with the rotation below FS --> LvB --> LB --> LB --> LB -->(your choice of shock) --> LvB --> LB --> LB --> LB , and repeat Now taking this rotation using the FT glyph and Earthshock as the second shock, it would be: |------------------------------------------------------------------All Spells Benefit---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| FS(2%crit) --> LvB(2%crit) --> LB(2%crit) --> LB(2%crit) --> LB(2%crit) --> ES(2%crit) --> LvB(2%crit) --> LB(2%crit) --> LB(2%crit) --> LB(2%crit) , and repeat (9/9 benefiting) 100% as opposed to using the Lava glyph: ____________*______Only two spells benefiting_____*_______________________ FS --> LvB(10%sp) --> LB --> LB --> LB --> ES --> LvB(10%sp) --> LB --> LB --> LB , and repeat (2/9 benefiting) ~30% At this point, without the math, the 2% crit to all spells outweighs the 10% spellpower to just LvB, as LvB is only 2 out of the 9 spells in our rotation. Calculated with that, its either 2% crit 100% of the time or 10%(scaled with spellpower) increased spellpower of LvB ~30% of the time. Logically, 2% crit for all spells 100% of the time outweighs the 10% sp, but seeing as we are almost always going to crit with LvB it comes down to the effective scaling of that 10% on the Lava glyph I believe with the addition of the 4% increased dmg to LB, the 2% crit will come out on top as not only do all spells benefit from the FT glyph, but LB gets 2% increased crit and 4% increased dmg as well as LB being cast over 1/3 more than LvB. Over a single DPS fight, I believe it will be close enough that we can put a personal preference on which glyph we want to use, which, IMO, is great since we can switch up things and still do similar DPS. Last edited by Lohmarn : 12/19/08 at 11:40 PM.
12/19/08, 4:47 AM   #42
lrdx
Von Kaiser

Tauren Shaman

Twisting Nether (EU)
 Originally Posted by Lohmarn FS(2%crit) --> LvB(2%crit)
LvB will crit all the time, so it gets no benefit of increased crit chance..

12/19/08, 5:18 AM   #43
Agash
Piston Honda

Tauren Shaman

 Originally Posted by lrdx LvB will crit all the time, so it gets no benefit of increased crit chance..
And ~2/3 of your flameshock damage is uncrittable too. Regardless, it is clear that a simple comparison of what proportion of our spells benefit from a glyph is a poor way of determining which glyph is best as it takes no account of how MUCH each spell benefits from it or what proportion of our damage those spells do. Also, no mention is made of mobility during fights which will tend to favour the LvB over FT Glyph.

Finally, the effect of the FT Glyph will diminish as your crit increases (+2% damage on LB at 0% crit; +1.3% damage on LB at 50% crit) while the benefit of the LvB Glyph will increase as your SP increases so your decision may well be dependant upon gear level.

I happen to agree with the conclusion that the FT may well be the way to go but this method of reaching that conclusion is seriously flawed.

12/19/08, 5:29 AM   #44
Agash
Piston Honda

Tauren Shaman

 Originally Posted by Cortez Two Questions: Now that Ele Mastery has been buffed is the glyph worth getting? When is this Patch! I really need the buffage lol
Some very quick calcs:

Unglyphed, EM gives 20% crit for 30 secs every 180 secs. This averages out to 3.3% crit.

Glyphed, EM gives 20% crit for 30 secs every 150 secs. This averages out to 4% crit.

There for the benefit of the glyph is around 0.7% crit averaged over a fight wihich is significantly worse than the FT glyph that is fighting for the 3rd spot with LvB Glyph.

Short answer: No it's not worth getting.

 12/19/08, 7:14 AM #45 Binkenstein mumbo-jumbo-theorycrafter     Binkenstein Pandaren Shaman   Saurfang EM works out to be an extra 50 dps or so, and that's dependant on fight length. Planning on double checking the mechanics of Lava over the weekend. www.totemspot.com The Shaman Community Site - My blog Totemspot Guides includes Ele & Enh guides for Mists

 Elitist Jerks [ELEMENTAL] Upcoming changes