[Elemental] PVP Specs? - Page 3

thunderfang · 03/17/09, 11:16 PM

Originally Posted by tufy

Also, while I'm here: I've been playing around with Hex for a bit. CloS, Vanish, Intimidating Shout don't work while Hexed, so it seems the old bug was finally solved. I ran out of time (first being primary scribe, followed by Thorim trials (and kills) :p) to test bandage or totems - someone should do those too, imo.

Can't CloS Hex seems like a bug. How about Shapeshift, Dash and Sprint?

Brgid · 03/17/09, 11:19 PM

Why would not being able to CloS Hex be a bug? Rogues can't CloS other Disarm effects....

thunderfang · 03/18/09, 12:32 AM

Hex is a spell effect and Clos "Instantly removes all existing harmful spell effects".

tufy · 03/18/09, 3:24 AM

Originally Posted by thunderfang

Hex is a spell effect and Clos "Instantly removes all existing harmful spell effects".

If that were the case, you could CloS out of poly or Cyclone too. On your other question, Sprint is blocked, but I couldn't check shapeshift, as I had no druid around. My guess is that it still works, just like it works on poly.

thunderfang · 03/18/09, 4:08 AM

Well since Clos "Does not remove effects that prevent you from using Cloak of Shadows." if they made Hex one of such effects that's ok for me.

Thanks for the sprint test, I hope BLZ have blocked all the strange abilities using while hexed. It's ok to see a druid shapeshift or a paladin bubble to remove hex, but a frog that sprinting or dropping totems is too weird.

Infuri · 03/18/09, 2:29 PM

Originally Posted by Brgid

Been saving honour / WG marks / emblems looking to get into Arena S6. I'm elemental for PvE (4.2k-ish PvE dps, not fully H/Naxx geared yet having swtiched mains a month or so ago.)

My most likely partners would be an excellent HPal and either a good DK or a mediocre Fury Warrior. I personally have very little PvP (and no Arena) experience on my Shaman, but did quite a lot of Feral Druid (to Challenger rank with a Warlock S2) and Hunter Arena (mostly S3, only 1700 rating or so :-( ) back in TBC.

With those potential partners, is Ele (or variant Ele 44/27 Frostschawk! for example) likely to be viable, or paired with melee and healer should I be looking to go Enhancement (or go Resto for 2s, or even dual-healer 3s?)

I'd recommend grabbing both the HPal and the DK and doing 3s. 2s is still going to be rough, with the best pairing still in discussions (although I think there's more possibility here now more than ever).

I think the frostschawk build will be like a frost mage that can poly once every 45 seconds. It could work, but not as effectively as other options.

suqatom · 03/18/09, 10:33 PM

Elemental pvp isnt worth it

tufy · 03/20/09, 4:33 PM

Further pvp testing:

Stoneclaw totem glyph:
1. Shield stays up if totem dies
2. Shield is not magical, meaning it can only be removed by running out (15 seconds) or being destroyed

Earthbind totem with Storm, Earth and Fire:
Roots seem to have the upper cap to break, but I was hard pressed to reach it solo in time or lost like 1 second duration at most. It will probably be more important in arenas, of course. Thunderstorm doesn't instabreak the roots or send the target flying, so we'll have to be careful which to use when.

shellfish · 03/23/09, 4:04 AM

Originally Posted by tufy

Further pvp testing:

Stoneclaw totem glyph:
1. Shield stays up if totem dies
2. Shield is not magical, meaning it can only be removed by running out (15 seconds) or being destroyed

Earthbind totem with Storm, Earth and Fire:
Roots seem to have the upper cap to break, but I was hard pressed to reach it solo in time or lost like 1 second duration at most. It will probably be more important in arenas, of course. Thunderstorm doesn't instabreak the roots or send the target flying, so we'll have to be careful which to use when.

When would you even use the Earthbind root in PVP, and of those times to use it, when would it be effective? Also, is the root a magic effect? i.e. removed by dispells? Maybe I'm trying to hard to be pessimistic but this doesn't actually add anything to our survivability, only another very situationally useful ability.

tufy · 03/23/09, 5:07 AM

Originally Posted by shellfish

When would you even use the Earthbind root in PVP, and of those times to use it, when would it be effective? Also, is the root a magic effect? i.e. removed by dispells? Maybe I'm trying to hard to be pessimistic but this doesn't actually add anything to our survivability, only another very situationally useful ability.

Think of it as our very own Frost Nova, with shorter duration (5 seconds), but also shorter cooldown and a tiny bit greater radius.

To be honest, when messing around, playing elemental kinda reminded me of my old mage. ToW, Earthbind and Stoneclaw now function much like regular spells, it's cool if you can keep em down, but they pay off as spells even if you can't. Thunderstorm functions something like "Blink Lite", timed well and coupled with Earthbind roots, it can be extremely potent. It's not perfect, of course, but at least I felt like I can put up a fight.

It does take some time getting used to, though. I admit I forgot to use Stoneclaw just for the shield on more than one occasion :p

Carnificus · 03/23/09, 5:17 PM

Here is the spec I am looking at, with glyphs.

http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?sham...7&version=9704

In addition to wondering what people think about my spec I was wondering if the increased cast speed part of the lava flows talent applied to when flame shock was removed by our own lava burst or if it is talking about enemy dispells?

Brgid · 03/24/09, 12:24 AM

Originally Posted by Carnificus

Here is the spec I am looking at, with glyphs.

http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?sham...7&version=9704

In addition to wondering what people think about my spec I was wondering if the increased cast speed part of the lava flows talent applied to when flame shock was removed by our own lava burst or if it is talking about enemy dispells?

I think it has been verified in another thread that it only applies to 'dispel' mechanics. So it will not trigger if you remove your own (unglyphed) FlS with LvB nor will it trigger from 'remove' effects (like CloS, pally bubble, etc)

Sancta · 03/25/09, 2:56 PM

Hello, this is my first time posting (just made the account yesterday) but I have been lurking these forums for about a year and love the amazing information provided herein=)

The reason I wanted to post was to clarify a few things about elemental sham in Arenas. ATM I'm playing competitively in S5 as Elemental shaman in 3s (check armory). We [shaman] are not "gimp" at all but actually heavily comp dependent. I just started playing Hpal/Awarlock this week after having a 2099 cap with Hpal/Shunter for a few weeks.

Thunderstorm is probably the most underestimated ability in all of arena. We've won many games because of a well timed TS that sends healer flying LOS of their DPS and vice versa (that's a good time to burst dps down while CC chaining healer).

Sometimes (like vs. mage/rog/priest) the DPS would lock me down and DPS me the entire time (shams main prob) and that's when you have to basically stop DPS and survive (using poison cleansing totem ALOT, tremor/earthbind to get space, LOS, TS, warstomp, shock/grounding mage bolts/sheep plus I'm basically astral shifted half the time, etc.) while warlock CCs/dots something until it's half life and then you burst. Stoneclaw glyph changes will help IMMENSELY with this.

The changes in 3.1 will GREATLY increase the viability of el sham in arena. Especially in 3s. The burst potential of instant lava burst will probably be the biggest change since if a [good] rog/dk/war is on you, you will be only able to cast lava burst 15% of the time.

Earthbind root opens up several strategies which include: rooting a dps when they are LOSing their healer and giving the much needed space away from melees long enough to put some burst out (which is amplified by booming echos since a frost shock after an FS, lava burst, CL increases our burst tremendously).

My spec 3.1 :

http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?sham...7&version=9722

kingkaos · 03/25/09, 5:49 PM

I would drop those points out of ele precision, and get just about anything else. Guardian Totems or Unrelenting Storms for instance would be a much better investment of 3 points.
As far as Ele pvp we arent unplayable but as has been stated, entirely comp reliant and still nothing special in that slot. You are forced to stack resil and play the tank role and I dont see this changing.

Juice · 03/26/09, 10:29 AM

Originally Posted by Sancta

Hello, this is my first time posting (just made the account yesterday) but I have been lurking these forums for about a year and love the amazing information provided herein=)

Thanks for posting. The number of elemental shaman able to compete at 2k+ is very rare, so we appreciate your perspective. And now, I'm going to deluge you with a lot of potentially stupid questions.

Do you run arenas with water shield or lightning shield? Do you find mana to be a problem? What percentage of your time do you find yourself healing and if you are forced to heal, is the game basically over as you hemorrhage mana?

Why use elemental precision in 3/3? What glyphs do you pvp with?

BustedHL · 03/26/09, 5:41 PM

Originally Posted by Juice

What glyphs do you pvp with?

His glyphs were shown in the link that he posted.
He uses Glyph of Lava, Glyph of FS, and will be replacing one of his majors with Glyph of Stoneclaw Totem.
Minors are Glyph of Water Walking, Glyph of Water Shield and Glyph of Ghost Wolf.

Originally Posted by Juice

Do you run arenas with water shield or lightning shield?

Judging by his glyph choice it seems that he would be using water shield. I have very little exp. in arena as an elemental shaman doing 3v3 or 5v5 arena, but with the spec I run with currently having none of the regen talents that I do in a PvE build mana gets used up fast. Thought that's my two cents and I may be doing something wrong. ;P

Sunchips · 03/26/09, 7:14 PM

When I played hunter/pally/ele for the 2100 range mana was never an issue and people were always in contact with me so I just kept lightning up for the extra damage. There were times that I would switch to water for longer matches but those were rare. I'm pretty torn myself on glyphs because I'd like to include both stoneclaw and the 10 sec cd on thunderstorm.

As for hit, not sure why he's 3/3 but I would be at least 2/3 as horde. 3 piece deadly ascendancy is 4.3% hit or so. This is assuming you're aiming for the 6% rough cap.

tufy · 03/27/09, 4:07 AM

Originally Posted by Sancta

My spec 3.1 :

http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?sham...7&version=9722

I'm planning on having a spec close to this, with the exception of Elemental Precision (droping 2 points and capping Guardian Totems off instead).

Now glyphs... this is a bit tougher. I'm definitely getting Stoneclaw, because it's pure win. Flame Shock seems a given due to Lava Flows and we also tend to cast Lava Bursts whenever possible.

About the third, though, I'm torn. On one hand, having 35s cooldown on Thunderstorm would be great. On the other hand, Totem of Wrath's 84 spellpower buff can't be removed. In full burst (LvB->EM-LB->CL->Shock), the difference in damage is practically nonexistent, except it's spread over 4 spells instead of one, while the benefit is visible on other spells as well. It'll be one of those two... I think :p

Theoretical Nasty Combo™: Hex->Earthbind root->Fire Nova->Flame Shock->LvB->EM-LB->(fire nova goes off) CL->Frost Shock->Thunderstorm. When we'll be able to pull those off, things WILL die.

unckle · 03/27/09, 5:22 AM

Originally Posted by tufy

Theoretical Nasty Combo™: Hex->Earthbind root->Fire Nova->Flame Shock->LvB->EM-LB->(fire nova goes off) CL->Frost Shock->Thunderstorm. When we'll be able to pull those off, things WILL die.

Yes, things will DIE !

I would use the CC given to shamans in a slightly different way ( we are talking about fighting a nasty melee enemy here )

I'd try to keep the enemy as much as possible inside the radius of EB totem - casting it at first and then moving away from him, while shocking him - Flame Shock + Frost Shock - so that he will still have a snare on him after exiting the EB radius ( or killing the totem ). I wouldn't use hex on him unless I know he has his trinket on CD, because we can use a 2xLB and start casting the 3rd spell before Hex is removed by damage ( even if he doesn't have his trinket on CD it might be enough to get a LB off and maybe a LvB if available ).
The Stoneclaw totem + glyph is a huge buff for us - it dies hard, you can get stunned by hitting it and it gives 4k extra hp to the shaman each CD - too bad it's on a 30s CD. I would use it along with Thundestorm in those situations when I cannot get away from the enemy.

The rotation Tufy suggested earlier is nice - but it doesn't take into account that the enemy will most likely go for the shaman first, and most will get in melee range really fast. I think that Thunderstorm can come handy if the melee will charge/stun ( and we know that all melee have a way to get in melee range - even enhancement shamans

). Using a Thunderstorm to get the enemy away , casting a Hex on him , and then nuking him down might be viable.

If a melee is on you the way to do the killing rotation is :
Thunderstorm - Flame Shock - Hex - LB - LvB - Firenova Totem - ( right now he is on his way to you ) Frost Shock - ( he get's in range for EB, and is also in range for the Firenova stun ) we need to make a decision : 1. Cast a LB in the Firenova's 2s stun or 2. Put an EB root - and so on ... shamans can actually kite - on paper at least .
I think that the EM+LB should be saved for the finishing move , and used after a LvB so that in 3 seconds ( maybe a EB root time) the shaman can do 8-10k damage.

I used some of these things on the PTR - it might work with gear and skill - so, start learning fellow shamans, elemental PvP just got a really big boost

unckle · 03/27/09, 5:47 AM

An interesting build might be this.

The highlights will be:
Increased range on EB
Ghost Wolf instant
10% Stamina
Flame Shock and Frost Shock on a 3.2s CD - due to lag these spells will probably be cast at around 4 seconds of eachother
Firenova Stun
No ToW or Lava Flows ( Firenova and Searing will use the fire totem spot 100% of time , and ToW+Glyph might not give the same benefits ; No Lava Flows because resilience makes LvB crit for a lot less and the benefit from these 3 TP will be greatly reduced )

With a build like this Tufy's Nasty Combo™ might result in a kill within 15 seconds

without giving the enemy a real chance to do anything ( I bet nobody is discussing about how to kill the new and improved elemental shaman on the melee PvP forums

.... but they will learn fast if such a method is available)

tufy · 03/27/09, 5:55 AM

Originally Posted by unckle

The Stoneclaw totem + glyph is a huge buff for us - it dies hard, you can get stunned by hitting it and it gives 4k extra hp to the shaman each CD - too bad it's on a 30s CD. I would use it along with Thundestorm in those situations when I cannot get away from the enemy.

The rotation Tufy suggested earlier is nice - but it doesn't take into account that the enemy will most likely go for the shaman first, and most will get in melee range really fast. I think that Thunderstorm can come handy if the melee will charge/stun ( and we know that all melee have a way to get in melee range - even enhancement shamans

). Using a Thunderstorm to get the enemy away , casting a Hex on him , and then nuking him down might be viable.

If the Stoneclaw Totem dies, the shield remains on you, so I recon a lot of people will drop stoneclaw, then immediately replace it with tremor or earthbind (likewise, if Earthbind is killed, roots stay).

The Nasty Combo™ suggested above is of course more of a dueling / open pvp concept akin to Arcane mage bursts or stunlocks than something fully available in arena, since I recon Earthbind, Hex and Thunderstorm will be far more useful to keep things off us and prevent enemy healers from doing their thing.

One thing I haven't checked yet, though: If I put a Flame Shock on the target and it gets dispelled, is the 30% haste buff a magic effect or not (i.e., can it be purged like heroism or spellstolen or not?)

unckle · 03/27/09, 6:23 AM

Not only that the Shield from Stoneclaw Totem doesn't go off if the totem is destroyed - it doesn't even have a timer ... stupid.... ( I found out it has a 15 sec timer, and it can be put up before the battle begins ) - so one could put up a totem in arena while in the preparation area , thus gaining the Shield and not using any mana. This might be too much , and Blizzard might change it

I'll be having some elemental fun tonight when I get home and I'll try to test some of the things wrote above in some arena/BG games.

edit: some stupidity highlighted

Bonosaur · 03/27/09, 6:55 AM

With all this talk lately about totem stomping macros, there is something I've been meaning to ask for ages:

Would adding the characters name infront of the totems name not fix the issue? As in:
ShamanName's Grounding Totem.

Seeing as all the macros I've seen are just simple "/petattack [target=...]"-macros.

It would probably mess up Wowhead and such a bit, but I'm sure there are ways to fix that ... there must be

Its a suggestion I've seen multiple times since ... probably pre-tbc, but I've never seen the answer as to why its not being done.

tufy · 03/27/09, 6:56 AM

Originally Posted by unckle

Not only that the Shield from Stoneclaw Totem doesn't go off if the totem is destroyed - it doesn't even have a timer - so one could put up a totem in arena while in the preparation area , thus gaining the Shield and not using any mana. This might be too much , and Blizzard might change it

Um... it had 15 sec duration two days ago when I last logged on PTR :p

Bonosaur: no. If you made a macro "/target Totem of Wrath" and the totem was named "Bonosaur's Totem of Wrath", the macro would still target it. Essentially, the easiest way to solve the problem would be to make pets untargetable through macros. Might cause issues with Mind Control Cap, but who uses that anyway?

Xanthen · 03/27/09, 9:34 AM

Originally Posted by unckle

An interesting build might be this.

The highlights will be:
Increased range on EB
Ghost Wolf instant
10% Stamina
Flame Shock and Frost Shock on a 3.2s CD - due to lag these spells will probably be cast at around 4 seconds of eachother
Firenova Stun
No ToW or Lava Flows ( Firenova and Searing will use the fire totem spot 100% of time , and ToW+Glyph might not give the same benefits ; No Lava Flows because resilience makes LvB crit for a lot less and the benefit from these 3 TP will be greatly reduced )

I'm honestly really intrigued by this build but wonder if the loss of Lava Flows is worth it for the 10% stam. It's a fight between how much of a beating I can take vs. how hard I nuke. I'd be really glad to get an arena perspective on this because i've just started PvPing on the Shaman only come lately and I've restricted myself to BGs (partially because I am shocked and awed by my stopping power). I've tended to just try and make myself as maneuverable as possible in order to not get hit and if that's the case in arena I would think that Toughness wouldn't be worth it.

Perspective would be appreciated.