I'd say popping wild magic after a heroism is blown stacked with elemental mastery would be a prime example of when wild magic would have an upper hand.

The logic behind this being that with heroism up you will get more LB - CL's off to take advantage of the extra 6-7% crit rating. Also with Elemental Mastery in the mix, 200 Spell damage to your LB - CL's as well as your guaranteed LvB crit would just be nasty.

No numbers or spread sheets but I can't see a speed potion pulling more than that.

Edit: Explanation.

Daowna, That logic makes perfect sense. I mean if you think about it when your base haste rating is 400+ and you factor in boomkin aura + wrath of air your already talking about 20%+ haste. Then on top of that your using bloodlust an additional 30%, which btw sorry if I mistaken but I was under the impression haste buffs like BL are multiplicative. If thats the case its 56% haste already and now your talking about using a potion of speed? O.o

This is all based on the fact that your using Potion of Speed during BL, but even if your not I dont see it beating out using a Potion of Magic synced with BL.

Edit: Just checked real quick to make sure it was multiplicative and it sure is.

Sorry, I don't know how I can provide more math to counter your wild guesses.

Remember this is 15 seconds on both potions which give you a finite amount of spells that you will cast in each scenario. Lets go through these scenarios.

A Base LB Crit rate of 50%+20% from EM gives you 70% Crit. Lava Burst has a 100% Crit already.

With Bloodlust, EM, and Wild Magic you will get off the following spells.
4.356% Crit
200 Spellpower

16% Haste from Gear *1.3(lust)*1.05(WoA)*1.03(Boomkin)= 1.63% Haste
Assume Flame shock is not cast during the potion affect.
Lava Burst = 1.000
Lightning Bolt = 1.227

TimeLine:
Wild Magic Potion 0.0
Lava Burst 1.0
Lightning Bolt 2.227
Lightning Bolt 3.454
Lightning Bolt 4.681
Lightning Bolt 5.908
Lightning Bolt 7.135
Lightning Bolt 8.362
Lightning Bolt 9.589
Lava Burst 10.589
Lightning Bolt 11.816
Lightning Bolt 13.043
Lightning Bolt 14.27

No more spells benefit from this since they will not be cast before the potion effect has worn off since Spell Power and Crit are added at spell completion instead of spell start.

With Potion of Speed(15.25%), Bloodlust and EM you will get off 2 more lightning bolts with EM up.

16%+15.25%=31.25% Haste *1.3* 1.05 * 1.03 = 1.845% Haste
Assume Flame shock is not cast during the potion affect.
Lava Burst = 1.000
Lightning Bolt = 1.084

Hasted TimeLine:
Potion of Speed 0.0
Lava Burst 1.000
Lightning Bolt 2.084
Lightning Bolt 3.168
Lightning Bolt 4.242
Lightning Bolt 5.336
Lightning Bolt 6.42
Lightning Bolt 7.504
Lightning Bolt 8.588
Lightning Bolt 9.672
Lava Burst 10.672
Lightning Bolt 11.756
Lightning Bolt 12.84
Lightning Bolt 13.924
Lightning Bolt 15.008

Wild Magic's static 200 spellpower and 4.356 Crit on top of 70% Crit to 10 Lightning Bolts and 200 spell damage to 2 Lava Bursts.

Potion of Speed works out to 1.4 Lightning Bolts with EM up when calculating 12 lightning bolts cast while under the effect, and subtracting 1.084 from 1.227. This gives you 1.716 which when divided by 1.227 gives you 1.4 full lightning bolts worth of speed gained from the potion.

Doing the math in my head, I don't see Wild Magic being better. Prove me wrong, or post your own math to correct me.

Edit:

Doing the Math for Potion of Speed and EM during the opening of a fight.

16%+15.25% Haste from Gear *1.05(WoA)*1.03(Boomkin)= 1.419% Haste
Assume Flame shock is not cast during the potion affect.
Lava Burst = 1.057
Lightning Bolt = 1.409

TimeLine:
Wild Magic Potion 0.0
Lava Burst 1.057
Lightning Bolt 2.466
Lightning Bolt 3.875
Lightning Bolt 5.284
Lightning Bolt 6.693
Lightning Bolt 8.102
Lightning Bolt 9.511
Lava Burst 10.568
Lightning Bolt 11.977
Lightning Bolt 13.386
Lightning Bolt 14.795
Lightning Bolt 16.204

Normal Rotation
16%+Haste from Gear *1.05(WoA)*1.03(Boomkin)= 1.255% Haste
Assume Flame shock is not cast during the potion affect.
Lava Burst = 1.195
Lightning Bolt = 1.594

TimeLine:
Wild Magic Potion 0.0
Lava Burst 1.195
Lightning Bolt 2.789
Lightning Bolt 4.383
Lightning Bolt 5.977
Lightning Bolt 7.571
Lightning Bolt 9.165
Wait 9.195
Lava Burst 10.39
Lightning Bolt 11.984
Lightning Bolt 13.578
Lightning Bolt 15.172

2*(1.195-1.057)+10*(1.594-1.409)=1.988

1.988/1.594=1.247 More LBs with EM up so while Potion of speed actually saves you 1.988 seconds when cast while not bloodlusted compared to 1.716 while bloodlusted, the shorter cast time of bloodlusted LBs creates more damage.



How about you start by providing some math and stop being a jackass? My "guesses" are based upon logic. Because I can't translate it into a spreadsheet for you doesn't make it wrong any more than your spreadsheet makes you right. Both forms of math are based upon rules we assume to be correct. The mistake usually lies in assumption not in the actual math.

I merely asked you to write out the proof in a legible format. Logic buried in your spreadsheet is about as good to us here as logic buried in my brain.

Edit: Simplified and Corrected Math

It was pretty clear to me that he declined your invitation to write a proof for you to attack. That shouldn't surprise you, honestly. When I read your request I already knew the outcome.

You may be correct, but the way to prove it (yes, it takes effort) is to figure it out with numbers, or look at how he figured it out with numbers. I haven't looked at Bink's spreadsheet in a long while, but I assume it's possible to see how the potion behaves.

It's not incumbent on Bink to convince you he's right. If you don't believe him, it's ok. If you care about the community and want the right answer to be known (which, based on your helpful and solid posting, I'd say is the correct answer), you'll probably have to lead him to the error in his reasoning a bit more than you've done thus far.

I'm not looking for something to attack, I'm merely looking for denial or confirmation of the truth.

Should I just assume Bink is right in everything and have to prove HIM wrong? That road works either way. If I assumed he was right on everything he said I'd have been adding 20% to my spellpower for Lava Burst instead of adding .2 to my coefficient.

No one person on this forum has been correct 100% of the time, myself included. If a new topic that has never come up to the forum is debated and two people disagree it comes down working out the math. Once math is agreed upon and proven then a particular theory becomes law until someone challenges it with math that proves it false.

Assumptions are the cause of errors here, rarely failed math.

I made some changes to my math above, I made a huge mistake calculating the potion of speed haste which worked against me. I think it is pretty clear that under the circumstances I outlined above Potion of Speed beats Wild Magic.

I wasn't aware that Wild Magic Potions were ever considered better than Potions of Speed or that it was an accepted Theory.

I agree with what you are saying however, it just seemed to me that the accepted theory was that Potion of Speed was better, he said his spreadsheet proved this wrong, yet digging through his spreadsheet would require me to find and point out every single mistake in the cursed thing and that isn't a can of worms I have the time to open at this point. I hate spreadsheet math when it involves calculations across 5 worksheets using bloated tables with no real documentation. I know why he tells people to stop messaging him, if I had a spreadsheet that confusing(no matter the accuracy)I'd have to say the same thing. I've had several people log on and ask *ME* to show them how to use the thing.

It is good debate, all I was trying to get across was don't shut someone down, if you think you are right prove it, don't take an out with a thinly veiled insult and a condescending mentality. I know the limitations of spreadsheets versus true simulations, and in this case those limitations apply. I'm not some forum-newbie who has no understanding of the class, I've been calculating Shaman DPS back when the proc from Sulfuras was affected by Spellpower.

I did the original legwork with an easy to understand comparison of stats. 500 Haste will come out above 200 spellpower and 200 spell crit in any comparison. Yes I know you can stack potions with other cooldown buffs, but I didn't see the benefit being large enough to overcome the difference.

I spent a good bit of time writing out all my calculations in a semi-legible format and my "wild guess" hasn't changed only been reinforced.

I guess I'll just wait for him to prove me wrong(which he may) and take it from there. I don't care if I'm wrong or right, only that we find the correct answer so we can move on.

Oddly enough, I've already done the leg work.
I spent about an hour on Sunday morning working on it in fact. If people want to examine what I did there, and offer suggestions/changes, feel free. I'm not going to sit down and do all that work again just because someone else doesn't agree with my findings, even though they appear to not have even looked at them (given the request to "start" posting stuff).

How can Lightning bolt be cast faster when Wild Magic is used? (this may be because you didn't calculate the haste bonuses correctly. Wild Magic is 63% haste, Speed is 84%, not the 41% you posted) Why aren't you assuming a /use postion, /cast spell macro, and thus adding a 1 second GCD at the start?

Hee hee. I don't even think Bink would dispute that - but he brings a lot to the forums, so we forgive him his imperfections. Just keep an open mind and be patient. If you're really hot to figure it all out and it can't wait, then write it up and ask him to see if you made a mistake. Otherwise, do what I do and don't sweat the little things...I'll probably die by standing in fire before I get the last 1% of dps that a min/max argument would reveal.

Wild Magic is used with Bloodlust, Potion of Speed is not. Haste has diminishing returns even if it is multiplicative.

I did have a mistake in my first timeline that gave the Wild Magic an Extra cast, so it is now 10 Lightning Bolts with 200 spellpower and 2 Lava Bursts with 200 spellpower.

My Timeline shows completion of spells not begining casts of spells, I assume there is a potion/cast macro.

Edit: I made a mistake in my assumption the diminishing returns of haste would marginalize the improvement while underestimating the multiplicative effect of haste.

It works out to 2 EM'ed Lightning Bolts versus 200 spellpower and 4.36% Crit on 10 Lightning Bolts and 200 Spellpower on 2 Lava Bursts.

It really isn't close when I look at it now.... Potion of Speed destroys Wild Magic simply because of the multiplicative effect of haste.

Not quite right as you are counting 14.27 secs of casts for your WM example and 15.008 secs for your Speed example. During those 0.738 secs you will be casting 0.601 LBs which are not under the effect of the Pot of WM. So what we should compare is 12 normal LBs vs. 10 Buffed + 0.6 normal LBs.

My calcs show that a LB buffed by WM will do about 10% more damage than an unbuffed LB. 10 x 1.1 + 0.6 = 11.6 : so whilst your calcs do show that the the Potion of Speed does buff damage by more than the Potion of Wild Magic, it is not by as much as you claim.

However, I am not sure whether your calcs showing 2 extra LB casts apply only to your specific example with a certain haste and zero latency loss. There may be other permutaions where only one extra LB cast is gained in which WM would be the better choice. I think more work needs to be done to prove a general case.

So i tried to create the best finalized shaman i could using wanton pants over benefactors gloves while keeping t7 4pc bonus. I played around with a couple different gear combos trying to get the best spellpower i could, But to get the max i got like 10 more SP and lost about 25 haste and a bit of crit so i switched it back to what i have.

i'm Herbalism / Enchanting ATM but i do want to pick up JC when i get the money. That'll definitely boost spellpower and fill some blue slots for the bonuses too.

chardev.org - a World of Warcraft Character Planner - x

Heres the one i made with JC included, i switched the boots for the extra blue socket and got alot more spellpower out of the deal but lose alot of haste. But with JC i get 51 spellpower, .19 crit, and -.3 haste

chardev.org - a World of Warcraft Character Planner - x

So can anyone tell me if i missed any BiS that i can mess around with to try and get a little better than i got or if i missed any enchants / gems. Also if anyone can make one better that i can model from i would greatly appreciate it.

Patch days are great for theorycrafting

I don't see any blue gem (2 required for your meta).

Put a 23 haste enchant on cloak instead of 15.

I prefer [Bands of Mutual Respect] for the wrist slot.

*Link was not working properly*

right thx, btw do JC gems count for the mete requirments in any way?

And for the bracers i could see it, but it's 10 less spellpower and 18 less Haste for 43 crit, i'd say it's a close toss up but from what all i've seen is spellpower and haste are really important and at 23% crit i'd probably rather have the linear spellpower increase than crit where it's value might be dropping. anyone got some numbers that could say which is better other than just ideas?

Edit: I think you linked it wrong or didn't save it because it's got you at 1960 spellpower and war prisoner and dying curse for trinkets but i am really inteagued to find out how you got that much spell power, although i think it might only be doable by the alliance with an automatic 1% to hit

I believe you could swap in the Cincture of Polarity for your belt and thus use your Benefactor's Gloves. You'd lose the T7 bonus but it would represent a slight gain n DPS, net, according to recent SEIC figures. Not enough to upgrade to, IMO, but a perfectly suitable alternative if the gear drops land that way.

I think if the kinks get worked out of the Rawr model you'll be able to get a more accurate sense of it.

Also, replace your cloak. I think both the crafted Deathchill Cloak and the Pennant Cloak that drops off Sarth are superior to the Shroud of Luminosity.

Thx for the fixes, heres what i got now w/ JC and Enchanting
chardev.org - a World of Warcraft Character Planner - x

And here's the look without the 4pc bonus using BiS's
chardev.org - a World of Warcraft Character Planner - x

Personally i still like the t7 but if they turn out to be the same or favor one then that'll help pick either one. but atm from a pure stats point of view without worrying about the 4pc there numbers go from

SP 2050 --> 2052 = +2
Crit 23.28% (454) --> 22.94% (435) = -.34% (19)
Haste 16.86% (553) --> 18.88% (619) = +2.02% (66)

so the question being does 2% haste make up for 10% dmg on LvB

I finally fixed the chardev.org link. The set up I came up with in the post above yours definately beat your setup.

Replace the cloak with [Pennant Cloak] along with a 23 haste rating enchant. The wrists with [Bands of Mutual Respect] with a 19 spellpower gem, they are far superior to [Bindings of the Decrepit]

Switch the [Ring of Holy Cleansing] out for [Titanium Spellshock Ring] with a 19 spellpower gem. And as far as the boots go, you might as well roll a dice on it. I'm going for [Eruption-Scarred Boots] with a 19 spellpower gem which gives a little more spellpower, and in the end spellpower is our greatest stat so it's well worth stacking it ahead of everything else. Since no matter what you do, in a BiS situation you'll be between 500 and 550 haste.

This whole set should put you at around 2070 if I remember correctly, a good 75ish spellpower ahead of a mail only BiS setup.

Also, the jewelcrafting prismatic gems add up to the meta gem bonus. If you do deside to join the JC club, I recommend putting one in [Pennant Cloak] a second in [Wyrmrest Necklace of Power] and the last in any of the items you have with a blue gem socket that also has a 5 spellpower bonus.

So hope that helps.

I agree with most of this other than the ring selection and the debate over the boots but that is all such small differences its going to be more opinion based.

I was originally going to join the JC train because its amazing as it stands with the no required blue gems + taking advantage of the +5 spell power sockets but i hope that ulduar will bring new things that will change my mind =p.

On a side note I did 5864DPS on patch kill tonight with no boomkin and a 2:41min fight, I was pretty stoked!

chardev.org - a World of Warcraft Character Planner - x

I did change the ring but to something a little different but the reason i don't like the spellshock is because it has no haste on it. it's a 7 spellpower gain for a 35 haste loss. and in my opinion i'd rather have the 1% added to my haste. As for the wrists you are completely right, i don't know how i missed the gem slot the first time around but that makes them an easy pick. This is my most updated, any final changes anyone can see before i make this my childhood hero?

By the way JC allows 3 gems right? And is the spellshock ring only usable by JC's or just the crafter of it?

Edit: And Chaser those stats are amazing but i don't see any way a horde could get to that much spellpower. Having to get 30 less hit opens up a lot of spellpower options. Whereas that does make me a little jealous, never will i roll alliance although i might tweak with an alliance one as well to get a max stats chart for both factions.

The Spellshock ring is usable by anyone, even non JCs.

You can't ignore the crit rating on it either. While crit rating is not great, you still shouldn't leave it out completely.