[Elemental] WWS & Gearing help thread - Page 3

Ezareth · 01/09/09, 2:50 PM

My advice on this is to pick up "spares" on a lot of these items that are close either way, especially the Ilvl226 cloth ones etc so that when some Ulduar gear comes out and we break out set bonus, we can swap in better pieces in different slots to maximize our damage.

Whiskeypete · 01/10/09, 10:25 PM

im looking for some advice. ive switched from hunter (since vanilla wow) to my shaman, so im still learning the particulars of the class. my spec and build are....http://http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Greymane&n=Whiskeyman

im still gearing this guy up. the gems are semi-messed up atm and need some changes after reading posts here.

ive always gone for and achieved max hit in the past and did so with this guy, but am now confounded with the results. unfort i dont have any WWS to post for comparison, but i have noticed a decline, or at best a flatline result in dps since reaching the hit cap.

-im currently at 347 (+5) and when i was at ~272 my dps seemed equivalent if not slightly better. for starters one of my trinkets was changed from sundial of the exiled, to the combo of a combo of embrace of the spider/mark of the war prisoner. so i lost a bit of crit that can influence this. overall am i adding in to much hit?

-from what ive read here i keep seeing ~250 hit rating here on the EJ site as the number to shoot for. other sources and people ive talked to say 342 is the number to shoot for 100% passive hit (for a draenei with 3/3EP and herioc presence). can you explain the difference between the two. where should we ideally be shooting for when it comes to hit?

-from what im seeing even at 342HR i occasionally see partial resists against mobs that are 82+. i see this mainly on 5man trash, 10man, 25man and bosses - is this normal now in LK?

anyways looking for your input on helpin out a noob shaman...ty

LITTLER0TT · 01/11/09, 1:27 AM

263 is what I aim for. 263 is the hit cap for Draenei with a Misery or Improved Faerie fire (3% spell hit debuff).

342 is cap if you don't have those debuffs. So if you know you will be raiding with a Shadow priest, or a Moonkin Druid, 263 is what you should aim for. If not, 342. I personally assume we will have one of the 2, and gear accordingly

This is assuming of course you are speced into precision, which you are. Your spec seems fine (thought the 2 points in reverb. are..interesting.. Though not hurting your damage.)

As far as I know partial resist happen, and that is just how it goes. Happened in BC as well, or at least I thought it was.

Whiskeypete · 01/11/09, 8:39 AM

ok so people are intentionally not reaching the hit cap and relying on group/party buffs to reach the hit cap. honestly have to say this surprises me. in the past this was always discouraged to the point of not being able to raid with a toon that wasn't hit capped.

Cragen · 01/11/09, 9:11 AM

Originally Posted by Whiskeypete

ok so people are intentionally not reaching the hit cap and relying on group/party buffs to reach the hit cap. honestly have to say this surprises me. in the past this was always discouraged to the point of not being able to raid with a toon that wasn't hit capped.

Well what I've done and any self respecing raider should do is to have one set that gets you to 288 or as close you can get when you have a balance druid or shadow priest in the raid. And one set that gets you to 367 when you don't have the 3% hit debuff.

For me this is quite simple. I only switch out my [Benefactor's Gauntlets] with [Heroes' Earthshatter Gloves] which I have gemmed with 16 git and enchanted with 20 hit. That gets me one hit over the required 14% hit cap with a single item swap.

Whiskeypete · 01/11/09, 9:18 AM

Originally Posted by Cragen

Well what I've done and any self respecing raider should do is to have one set that gets you to 288 or as close you can get when you have a balance druid or shadow priest in the raid. And one set that gets you to 367 when you don't have the 3% hit debuff.

For me this is quite simple. I only switch out my [Benefactor's Gauntlets] with [Heroes' Earthshatter Gloves] which I have gemmed with 16 git and enchanted with 20 hit. That gets me one hit over the required 14% hit cap with a single item swap.

very good idea. was planning on doing the same thing once i have the gear that makes this doable. still gearing this guy. in the meantime i'll have to remain hitcapped until im able to do this, so i have coverage. imo its not responsible for anyone to show up for a raid without being able to reach the hitcap whether solo or with the grp.

thanks for the answers guys, think everyone hit all the topics. unfortuantely im glad to see others facing some of the same 'issues' ive got atm bc the class is somewhat wonky. after running a hunter for over two years its nice to see that bliz has found yet another class to mess up. comes down to dedicated players to make sense out of the poo they give us

ekval · 01/11/09, 9:21 AM

Originally Posted by Whiskeypete

ok so people are intentionally not reaching the hit cap and relying on group/party buffs to reach the hit cap. honestly have to say this surprises me. in the past this was always discouraged to the point of not being able to raid with a toon that wasn't hit capped.

Any hit rating over 263 as Draenei and 3/3 EP will go waste if you know you will raid with Shadow Priest or Moonkin (Misery/FF). So people are still intentionally reaching the hit cap, they are just not wasting it if they have stable raiding group with previously stated two classes/debuffs.

I prefer going for 342 as I know I don't most of the time have neither of those debuffs. Other players go for 263 if they do have them, totally depends of your raid group situation.

LITTLER0TT · 01/11/09, 2:24 PM

Having a "set" for both occasions is extremely nice to have. Unnecessary for me, since we have 3ish active raiding priests. 1 Boomkin who may or may not spec into ImpFF, depending on preference I suppose.

But yes, anything over 263 as a draenei is completely wasted with a shadow priest, and is only losing you dps. It isn't "irresponsible" for that shaman to be under the hit cap without a shadow priest. The "irresponsible" one is the raid leader for not having a huge buff like 3% spell hit in every raid.

Ezareth · 01/12/09, 12:43 AM

Originally Posted by Sjera

I would dispute this. My best calculations for it show it to be worth 24dps.
I've recently abandoned the t7 4 piece bonus in favour of grabbing more haste.

If I get any noticeable loss of dps I'll let you know - but I think the claim that its worth 60 spell power is doubtful at best.
I guess if I'm wrong, I'll notice at the next Patchwerk fight.

Well in the simulationcraft setup, disabling the T7 4piece bonus lowers DPS by 60.

Everything there is pretty accurate from my experience, so I don't know what else to tell you ( =

Mmootimus · 01/12/09, 1:12 AM

Originally Posted by Ezareth

Well in the simulationcraft setup, disabling the T7 4piece bonus lowers DPS by 60.

Everything there is pretty accurate from my experience, so I don't know what else to tell you ( =

Repeating myself here, but in addition to my and Sjera's personal calcs, I believe Bink also valued it much lower than that using SEIC. So there is a discrepancy somewhere.

Of course, whether you value 4 pc at 60 or 30 DPS, is a very small difference in overall terms. However, it probably is the difference between making 4 pc T7 an essential best-in-slot choice, and T7 being good, but not definitely worth using 4 pieces of, especially if you have access to cloth.

None of this is exactly earth-shattering stuff, but it would be nice to get some consensus.

Cragen · 01/12/09, 1:30 AM

Originally Posted by Mmootimus

Repeating myself here, but in addition to my and Sjera's personal calcs, I believe Bink also valued it much lower than that using SEIC. So there is a discrepancy somewhere.

Of course, whether you value 4 pc at 60 or 30 DPS, is a very small difference in overall terms. However, it probably is the difference between making 4 pc T7 an essential best-in-slot choice, and T7 being good, but not definitely worth using 4 pieces of, especially if you have access to cloth.

None of this is exactly earth-shattering stuff, but it would be nice to get some consensus.

Well one of the things that the tier items will give you is no wasted stats, not counting the T7 gloves. Close to every cloth item out there has a ton of spirit.
I just don't see the point going for cloth pieces when you got access to mail items with very balanced stats. Unless you happen to be extremely unlucky with drops of course. Now that is just my two cents.

But if you're getting different numbers on how much dps the set bonus gives. Are you testing it on live or PTR?
Since I had 12k+ lava burst crit on a test dummy on the PTR, and the highest lava burst crit I've had in during raids on live is 11k. So I guess that shows just how much more lava burst will be hitting for when 3.0.8 hits.

• Binkenstein · 01/12/09, 1:43 AM

Eh, I'll go re-evaluate it (fairly certain that it would have changed)

• Binkenstein · 01/12/09, 5:32 AM

Right, numbers.
19 lava bursts in one rotation "set"
Non crit damage = 4877
205799 damage without bonus (1.2208 crit bonus)
210849 damage with (1.2753 crit bonus)

5050 difference
Divided by fight time of 180 seconds = 28 dps from the T7 4pc bonus.

This is compared with a 1.172 EP value for Spellpower.

THe bonus also slightly increases the value of SP & Hit, and devalues haste (crit remains the same, obviously), but these are minor fluctuations to the third decimal point. Thusly I can conclude that the set bonus could quite easily be replaced, although given the itemisation I expect it would be very hard to do so, aside from the gloves which no-body seems to like.

dedmonwakeen · 01/12/09, 11:31 AM

Originally Posted by Ezareth

Well in the simulationcraft setup, disabling the T7 4piece bonus lowers DPS by 60.

Ezareth, perhaps there was a bug.... or you got bit by a low-iteration blip..... or something else.....

But..... I just ran it right now.............

Without T7 4pc
./simcraft input=raid_80.txt active=Shaman_54_17_0 tier7_4pc_elemental=0

Player=Shaman_54_17_0  DPS=4845.0 (Error=+/-7.7 Range=+/-425)  DPR=20.7  RPS=233.7/204.6  (mana)
  Core Stats:  strength=138  agility=76  stamina=927  intellect=1089  spirit=154  health=13028  mana=22760
  Spell Stats:  power=2200  hit=11.1%  crit=18.8%  penetration=0  haste=13.8%  mp5=191
  Attack Stats:  power=353  hit=8.8%  crit=12.6%  expertise=0.0  penetration=0  haste=13.8%
  Actions:
    chain_lightning       Count= 45.6| 6.2sec  DPE=5543|18%  DPET=4103  DPR= 8.2  Miss=0.0%  Hit=3502  CritHit=7329|7416|53.3%
    flame_shock           Count= 16.1|18.1sec  DPE=7863| 9%  DPET=5463  DPR=30.0  Miss=0.0%  Hit=1391  CritHit=2909|2982|45.7%  Tick=1077
    lava_burst            Count= 29.3| 9.7sec  DPE=11361|24%  DPET=8404  DPR=41.3  Miss=0.0%  CritHit=11361|11614|100.0%
    lightning_bolt        Count= 91.5| 3.1sec  DPE=6469|43%  DPET=3786  DPR=26.0  Miss=0.0%  Hit=4087  CritHit=8551|8666|53.4%
    lightning_overload    Count= 27.5| 0.0sec  DPE=3080| 6%  DPET= inf  DPR= inf  Miss=0.0%  Hit=1940  CritHit=4060|4333|53.8%

With T7 4pc
./simcraft input=raid_80.txt active=Shaman_54_17_0 tier7_4pc_elemental=1

Player=Shaman_54_17_0  DPS=4874.9 (Error=+/-7.4 Range=+/-374)  DPR=20.9  RPS=233.7/204.9  (mana)
  Core Stats:  strength=138  agility=76  stamina=927  intellect=1089  spirit=154  health=13028  mana=22760
  Spell Stats:  power=2200  hit=11.1%  crit=18.8%  penetration=0  haste=13.8%  mp5=191
  Attack Stats:  power=353  hit=8.8%  crit=12.6%  expertise=0.0  penetration=0  haste=13.8%
  Actions:
    chain_lightning       Count= 45.2| 6.2sec  DPE=5556|18%  DPET=4112  DPR= 8.3  Miss=0.0%  Hit=3503  CritHit=7330|7416|53.6%
    flame_shock           Count= 15.9|18.1sec  DPE=7899| 9%  DPET=5487  DPR=30.0  Miss=0.0%  Hit=1390  CritHit=2907|2982|46.1%  Tick=1077
    lava_burst            Count= 29.1| 9.7sec  DPE=11638|24%  DPET=8608  DPR=42.2  Miss=0.0%  CritHit=11638|11899|100.0%
    lightning_bolt        Count= 90.9| 3.0sec  DPE=6469|42%  DPET=3788  DPR=26.0  Miss=0.0%  Hit=4088  CritHit=8548|8666|53.4%
    lightning_overload    Count= 27.5| 0.0sec  DPE=3072| 6%  DPET= inf  DPR= inf  Miss=0.0%  Hit=1942  CritHit=4056|4333|53.4%

The delta appears to be ~30dps.

Vladimeir · 01/12/09, 12:56 PM

After passing the 50% crit mark in a raid setting, how fast does crit lose value?

The World of Warcraft Armory

I am trying to decide on how big an upgrade [Shield of Assimilation] would be over [Ward of the Violet Citadel]?

I am currently at 262 hit. If I use the Ward, I would resocket my [Bands of Mutual Respect] with +32 Spell Power, however, that would push me 10 over the hit cap and overall would have a net gain of +25 SP, -33 Haste, +25 Crit Rating, -34 Int. Just seems that reverting (I use the shield for resto obviously) would create a lot of wasted stats.

This would also allow for a change in trinket over [Figurine - Twilight Serpent].

What would the best combination be??

Mmootimus · 01/12/09, 1:27 PM

Originally Posted by Vladimeir

After passing the 50% crit mark in a raid setting, how fast does crit lose value?

It really depends on your overall stats, but nothing especially magical happens to crit either side of 50%. In 3.08 you will see a fairly high level of diminishing returns on additional CC uptime once your crit gets over 50%, but there is certainly no special value to aim for.

Originally Posted by Vladimeir

I am trying to decide on how big an upgrade [Shield of Assimilation] would be over [Ward of the Violet Citadel]?

I am currently at 262 hit. If I use the Ward, I would resocket my [Bands of Mutual Respect] with +32 Spell Power, however, that would push me 10 over the hit cap and overall would have a net gain of +25 SP, -33 Haste, +25 Crit Rating, -34 Int. Just seems that reverting (I use the shield for resto obviously) would create a lot of wasted stats.

This would also allow for a change in trinket over [Figurine - Twilight Serpent].

What would the best combination be??

I found your post a little unclear, as you are talking about the Shield as an upgrade... except that you are already currently using the shield it seems. Anyway, for pure raid PVE DPS, I would take the Ward of the Violet Citadel. Its give you a good lot of hit, without losing too much in return. The choice is fairly marginal though, its not going to have a huge impact either way, so if one set-up is easier in terms of reaching the hit cap you may be better with that.

Whatever you do, upgrading your red gems to scarlet rubies would probably give you a bigger boost than either combination

Ghando · 01/12/09, 3:37 PM

Ward of the Violet Citadel is probably BIS, period, unless you have so much hit from your other slots that you're considerably over cap even without socketing hit. The shield from KT whose name escapes me is better in some ways, but still the fact remains that a ton of a shield's value is tied up in its armor and for that reason shields will always be the inferior choice assuming roughly equal itemization. Unless you're getting hit, obviously.

Argrax · 01/12/09, 3:47 PM

Originally Posted by Ghando

Ward of the Violet Citadel is probably BIS, period, unless you have so much hit from your other slots that you're considerably over cap even without socketing hit. The shield from KT whose name escapes me is better in some ways, but still the fact remains that a ton of a shield's value is tied up in its armor and for that reason shields will always be the inferior choice assuming roughly equal itemization. Unless you're getting hit, obviously.

I was under the impression that armor took nothing from an item's stat budget, isn't your argument analogous to saying that cloth gear should have better stats than plate gear (assuming identical ilvl)?

Ghando · 01/12/09, 3:55 PM

Yeah, I'm bad at counting. I thought shields were an exception.

Ezareth · 01/12/09, 5:12 PM

Originally Posted by dedmonwakeen

Ezareth, perhaps there was a bug.... or you got bit by a low-iteration blip..... or something else.....

But..... I just ran it right now.............

Without T7 4pc
./simcraft input=raid_80.txt active=Shaman_54_17_0 tier7_4pc_elemental=0

Player=Shaman_54_17_0  DPS=4845.0 (Error=+/-7.7 Range=+/-425)  DPR=20.7  RPS=233.7/204.6  (mana)
  Core Stats:  strength=138  agility=76  stamina=927  intellect=1089  spirit=154  health=13028  mana=22760
  Spell Stats:  power=2200  hit=11.1%  crit=18.8%  penetration=0  haste=13.8%  mp5=191
  Attack Stats:  power=353  hit=8.8%  crit=12.6%  expertise=0.0  penetration=0  haste=13.8%
  Actions:
    chain_lightning       Count= 45.6| 6.2sec  DPE=5543|18%  DPET=4103  DPR= 8.2  Miss=0.0%  Hit=3502  CritHit=7329|7416|53.3%
    flame_shock           Count= 16.1|18.1sec  DPE=7863| 9%  DPET=5463  DPR=30.0  Miss=0.0%  Hit=1391  CritHit=2909|2982|45.7%  Tick=1077
    lava_burst            Count= 29.3| 9.7sec  DPE=11361|24%  DPET=8404  DPR=41.3  Miss=0.0%  CritHit=11361|11614|100.0%
    lightning_bolt        Count= 91.5| 3.1sec  DPE=6469|43%  DPET=3786  DPR=26.0  Miss=0.0%  Hit=4087  CritHit=8551|8666|53.4%
    lightning_overload    Count= 27.5| 0.0sec  DPE=3080| 6%  DPET= inf  DPR= inf  Miss=0.0%  Hit=1940  CritHit=4060|4333|53.8%

With T7 4pc
./simcraft input=raid_80.txt active=Shaman_54_17_0 tier7_4pc_elemental=1

Player=Shaman_54_17_0  DPS=4874.9 (Error=+/-7.4 Range=+/-374)  DPR=20.9  RPS=233.7/204.9  (mana)
  Core Stats:  strength=138  agility=76  stamina=927  intellect=1089  spirit=154  health=13028  mana=22760
  Spell Stats:  power=2200  hit=11.1%  crit=18.8%  penetration=0  haste=13.8%  mp5=191
  Attack Stats:  power=353  hit=8.8%  crit=12.6%  expertise=0.0  penetration=0  haste=13.8%
  Actions:
    chain_lightning       Count= 45.2| 6.2sec  DPE=5556|18%  DPET=4112  DPR= 8.3  Miss=0.0%  Hit=3503  CritHit=7330|7416|53.6%
    flame_shock           Count= 15.9|18.1sec  DPE=7899| 9%  DPET=5487  DPR=30.0  Miss=0.0%  Hit=1390  CritHit=2907|2982|46.1%  Tick=1077
    lava_burst            Count= 29.1| 9.7sec  DPE=11638|24%  DPET=8608  DPR=42.2  Miss=0.0%  CritHit=11638|11899|100.0%
    lightning_bolt        Count= 90.9| 3.0sec  DPE=6469|42%  DPET=3788  DPR=26.0  Miss=0.0%  Hit=4088  CritHit=8548|8666|53.4%
    lightning_overload    Count= 27.5| 0.0sec  DPE=3072| 6%  DPET= inf  DPR= inf  Miss=0.0%  Hit=1942  CritHit=4056|4333|53.4%

The delta appears to be ~30dps.

Yeah I'm getting the ~30dps now as well. Hrmm, I must have had a bad raid_80 file or changed something else when I ran my 4pc testing.

/sigh

I was hoping I wouldn't have to wear cloth to see optimal DPS. Now I guess I better reanalyze my entire BIS.

Ok my Analysis so far.

[Footsteps of Malygos] have 7 less spellpower, 1 less crit, 5 less int, all for 18 more haste and 10 stamina than

10:11:08 called in wowhead_item::start:324 Item not found!

. Are they really better? Yes...barely, and when epic gems come out then no, they'd be equal. If you are a Jewelcrafter these are better right now.

[Leggings of the Wanton Spellcaster] Easily BIS legs....for almost any caster class I'd say. Much better than our T7 Legs.

[Bands of Mutual Respect] has 10 less spellpower, 20 less haste for 28 hit. Being a Jewelcrafter and using a 27 SP Jewel on these make these much better, especially since most of these cloth upgrades are going to give us more hit than we can use.

Mmootimus · 01/12/09, 5:29 PM

Glad you saw the light Ezareth.

@Ghando
Ward of the Violet Citadel is a perfectly good entry level off-hand, but Voice of Reason is considerably better imho. Whilst getting +hit from items generally appears the most efficient solution, 26 extra item levels tip the balance rather heavily in favour of the shield.

Ghando · 01/12/09, 6:30 PM

Agreed, if there's a decent way to get the hit otherwise Voice of Reason is better. Lack of drops + terrible rolls have taken the decision out of my hands so far but I really don't see the Violet Ward as a major downgrade if it means you don't have to socket hit. If I switched to Voice of Reason I'd have to make up 36 hit (I'm 2 over cap) somewhere and that represents over 40 SP lost from gems if I re-socketed to make up for it. If I got the robes from Maly10 that'd give me a lot more flexibility (or if I had a decent trinket to replace my Mark of the War Prisoner) and that's why I think those robes really are BIS. Screw the T7 4-piece bonus.

Ezareth · 01/12/09, 7:00 PM

Originally Posted by Mmootimus

Glad you saw the light Ezareth.

@Ghando
Ward of the Violet Citadel is a perfectly good entry level off-hand, but Voice of Reason is considerably better imho. Whilst getting +hit from items generally appears the most efficient solution, 26 extra item levels tip the balance rather heavily in favour of the shield.

Don't forget that Shields get an extra 25 Intellect as well. I haven't been a fan of non-shield offhands since Therazane's Touch.

Ghando · 01/12/09, 7:54 PM

Give me a shield with 38 hit rating and I'll use it :P The Int really doesn't seem like a big deal for Elemental, though it's nice for Resto. The big thing is that Shield itemization suffers from the same issues as some other Mail pieces; it's all done in a hybridy way such that Holy Paladins will use it and Resto Shamans don't really mind using it even if it doesn't have mp5.

Skeenz · 01/12/09, 11:23 PM

Originally Posted by Ghando

Ward of the Violet Citadel is probably BIS, period, unless you have so much hit from your other slots that you're considerably over cap even without socketing hit. The shield from KT whose name escapes me is better in some ways, but still the fact remains that a ton of a shield's value is tied up in its armor and for that reason shields will always be the inferior choice assuming roughly equal itemization. Unless you're getting hit, obviously.

First time post so please correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't [Surplus Limb] BiS at the moment?