Ikefury

This is incorrect. More haste is always a dps increase, until your lightning bolts get under 1 second. Binkenstein proved this multiple times throughout these forums.

Please stop perpetrating misinformation.

 

orion121

Perpetuating.

Also to go into this a little more, you're technically both right. While certain values for haste are capable of creating more even intervals of LvB:LB these values only work with spherical characters in a vacuum (physics joke). The nature of an actual encounter is one that is subject to movement, latency spikes, damage bonuses, target swaps, interrupts and dispels. Once you remove the bubble, in nearly all cases (haste > 1270, haste > 2540, "soft" and "hard" caps respectively), haste becomes a raw DPS increase.

 

dracosveen

Hi,

Thanx for the quick answer. I'll see what I can do along the lines of what u suggested. Just quickly though...is Rawr then incorrect in what it says about elemental gear as all the gear I have because rawr gave it as upgrades to what I had.

It was weird for me that it was saying that mp5 gear was an upgrade but I never thought further about it.

 

• Suggestive

I would guess rawr is putting out results like that because you don't have all the mana regen options checked. Check the buffs section to make sure.

 

dracosveen

Hi,

I think today is going to be a learning day. The only buffs that I have checked in the buffs section are those that I provide myself, a flask and a buff food. I have updated my items as well.

Either way I see now that I shouldn't have followed Rawr as religiously as I did and should have only used it as a reference. It is still putting gear with mp5 above gear with haste/hit and haste/crit. Maybe I am doing something wrong.

Anyway....I appreciate all the advice so far. Just too make sure I don;t waste emblems again on gearing incorrectly I am going to shift everything with MP5 to my healing set and just get haste/hit and haste/crit gear.

If I did my numbers correctly and from what I read I need 13% hit to be capped...which is 343 (approx). So I need to keep within 1% of that cos of buffs from the other classes (SP and Boomkin)? Or is it 3%?

 

◊ masanbol

Rawr and raids in general are not balanced around being only self buffed. If you had to fight bosses solo, of course mp5 would be useful, as you would run out of mana very quickly.

Check any and every buff that you will have from a raiding situation and it will give you a much more useful answer.

 

Kimo

11% (10% if draenei)from gear + 3% from Elemental Precision talent + 3% from Boomkin/SP debuff = Hit capped

Also, do not religiously get haste/hit and haste/crit gear. I prefer my heroic 10 ToC Crit/Hit ring because there is not a single haste/hit or haste/crit ring in all of 25 man or 10 man ToC. Better Hit/Crit than haste/mp5 and use less hit elsewhere imo.

 

dracosveen

Hi,

You start of with a base hit of 83% against a raid boss (+3 levels). So that means u need 17%. Therefore:

17% - 1% (draenai racial) = 16%
16% - 3% from talents = 13%
13% - 3% (boomkin/SP) = 10%

So therefore I need approx 10% * 26.2 (rounded) = 262 hit rating to be hit capped in a raid with the Boomkin/SP buff and 341 hit rating to be hit capped otherwise.

Am I correct in these calculations? I know u said basically the same but I need to know everything and understand everything

 

dracosveen

Hi,

I went and got the bracers that you suggested and change some gear around to be more inline with the haste/crit and/or haste/hit advice and I ave boosted my DPS by about 700 - 800. I only tested on the lvl83 dummy and I was only selfbuffed (no food or flask) but I managed to keep 4.3k until OOM which was about 290 secs.

So thanx alot for setting me straight

 

Ikefury

No prob.

Once you get the triumph badges, buy the Ele Relic>Tier9 Shoulders>Tier 9 Helm. If you have a Signet of Manifest Pain/Pyrelight Circle, trade that in for the Heartmender Circle.

Get the Sash of Ancient Power crafted if you don't do ToGC 10... If you do ToGC 10 every week, get Icehowl's Cinch/Binding.



And whenever you use Rawr to make gear calls... Always always always make sure you have all the proper 25man raid buffs that you'd normally have checked off. Otherwise, your gear lists are going to come up with things like too much hit and too much mp5.

 

LITTLER0TT

The [Ring of the Darkmender] is best in slot next to [Nebula Band] from algalon 10 man. [Ring of the Darkmender](non heroic version) is good to since there aren't very many alternatives. [Firestorm Ring] is still good just not best in slot.

 

orion121

Electrifying Winds > Hex > ???

The principles of ele haven't changed much, CL went from being OK, to bad, to good so your "rotation" (that word sucks) are pretty accurate, 2p T9 dictates 1 FS to every 3 LvB.

Hit (<263/289) > SP >/= Haste > Crit

5k sounds like you know what you're doing.

 

Kanyeezy

Coo, about to pick up that totem...

I'm a noob so explain that formula for me...this is actually my first time actually LEARNING more about my class other than reading the obvious!

 

orion121

General gearing rule;
1. Hit cap
2. As much SP and haste as you can get
3. Try and have at least 33% raid buffed crit chance with Elemental Oath up (to maintain ~100% EO/Clearcasting uptime)

 

Daurs

Alright so I had stopped playing WoW for the last 3 months or so, and now I'm wondering:

Is it, on single targets, better to use CL when ever its off cooldown instead of LB, or is it still spamming LB like before?
Ive been going with the LB spam atm, but i just red (on mmochamps) that in their opinion its an dps increase to use CL on single targets aswell (since it apparently got buffed at some point?). Is this true or false? If its false, at how many targets does using CL become a dps increase? Above me theres a question about rotations wich got anwsered aswell, but it wasnt quite clear to me if its used yes or no.
Thanks for replys

 

Lilendra

@Daurs

CL deals more damage per cast time than LB, but obv costs more mana so you need to be wary of your mana pool in longer fights. Using a rotation like FS,LvB,LB,CL,LB,LB,LB... will ensure CL is used during clearcasting and therefore cost less mana. Using CL whenever its available (and LvB on cd) is a marginal dps increase but you will go oom faster so it is fight dependent.

LB does more damage on a single target than CL, so we still fire out a LB after popping EM.

 

orion121

With regard to the rotation you posted, it's mostly accurate but you may have to adjust for distance though the difference would be minor.

To elaborate, in the event that your LB lands non-crit before your CL finishes, a LO proc would consume the CC buff and put the CL's mana cost back up to normal. With high haste though this is pretty well negligible over 15 yards and given that it's solely dependent on a non-crit LB followed by a LO proc (read: {100-$CritPercentage}*0.33 so ~20% of CLs) it doesn't play a major roll in mana conservation or DPS.

Note: As implied, Clearcasting/EO is triggered on spell landing, Clearcasting effect (+10% SP / -50%mana cost) is consumed on spell cast completion.

 

Acariel

I would like to humbly request clarification on a belabored topic. I have never needed to post before, I do try to answer my own questions by reading for myself, but I have read the forums at length, and am still unclear on the haste issue.

It was posted just above, and many times by various people, that haste = more dps until you reach 1 second bolt or CL casts. This makes perfect sense, you’re hitting the global cool down barrier. This strongly implies that to exceed whatever haste is needed to hit that 1s cast time for either spell is fruitless, making this a pretty hard cap. Great, time to go home….but wait….

In many posts, including Bink’s core theory crafting thread about the basics of Ele Shammys, it is said over and over THERE IS NO HASTE CAP. Bink even posted a nice graph showing “soft” caps around 1200 and some other numbers. (Admittedly I don't remember what the soft cap meant)

I do believe Bink of course, being the ES god he is, but please help me understand. If there is no haste cap (as stated by many including Bink), what does it mean when folks also then go and say that <1s cast time, more haste = not more dps. Isn’t this a cap?

IF the 1s is a sort of haste cap, then as the new content gear increases our haste even more, could there be a time when we have to make awkward decisions on when to stop stacking haste?

One ex: Even now, I have over 1000 haste while casting, and around 1500 with Volatile Power. On H Twins, as an orb catcher I probably spend half the fight between Heros, trinket, and orb buff under the 1s cast time, and half the fight over 1s. Half the fight I am making great use of all the haste I can have, but am I getting diminishing returns during heros/special buffs/trinks if indeed the 1s line is some kind of haste cap?

Again, sorry if I am way way off, and for the lengthy post. Thank you in advance for any clarification.

 

Zamir

You may find this post helpful. Yes, the maximum value shown is 40% haste + BL (which is a total of 82% haste) and yes, it's now quite possible to achieve 50% haste from gear and non-temporary buffs, which approaches 95% haste with BL. However, LB doesn't "cap" to 1 second until 100% haste: with BL, this happens at ~53% haste from gear/buffs etc and is quite possible; however without BL you need Wrath of Air + Imp. Moonkin Form + 2784 haste rating from gear, which even with Icecrown gear seems somewhat unlikely.

Obviously if all your cast times are capped to their minimum value then more haste is totally worthless, but under normal circumstances that won't be a concern. It does potentially reduce the value of haste values beyond 1385 during BL, but that's a tiny portion of most fights and haste will still be a good stat for the rest of it.

[e] To clarify, even though CL/LvB/shocks cap much earlier, haste still remains very valuable because it continues to positively affect the spell which constitutes the bulk of our casting and the bulk of our DPS - that is, Lightning Bolt.

My Elemental Shaman blog: Planet of the Hats!
Home of the Beginner's Guide and the ZAP! spreadsheet.

Every one of us is, in the cosmic perspective, precious. If a human disagrees with you, let him live. In a hundred billion galaxies you will not find another.

-- Carl Sagan

 

Acariel

This helps IMMENSELY. THANK YOU, this ties together pretty much everything I've ever read.

Since we are not really supposed to post just to thank people (but I just had to because this has been unclear to me forever!) I'll tie in a flimsy comment too.

This makes perfect sense in practical use, now that I really understand it. Even though on H Twins I'm often super hasted, the loss of effiency is probably negligable, especially factoring in that half the fight you are running around like a little girl waving your wrists.

This fight probably has the most use I've ever seen for CL, but you don't get much time to stand still and just free cast -- and neither do you in other fights with special haste buffs. Even though you are getting diminishing returns from haste under those periodic buffs, affecting mainly CL and LvB, it's still such a small % under 1s, and those 2 spells still rarely comprise the bulk of your dps (even on Twins where you want to use CL every possible chance) and only possible to even notice if you have the option to stand and free cast while super buffed.

Even though we may be a lot of content away from those haste caps, for all practical purposes, I think it's important for us to know the mechanics of everything we do, especially given how important haste is to us.

Thanks again for the link and comments.

 

• Aldriana

Upon contemplation, I've come to the conclusion that this thread is nothing but a massive pile of rule 7 violations. As such, I'm closing it to avoid further generation of useless crap. If you'd like to make a coherent argument as to why it should be reopened, feel free to PM me, but given the generally low quality of posts it's been generating lately you're going to have a tough sell.