Elitist Jerks
Register
Blogs
Forums


Go Back   Elitist Jerks » Class Mechanics » Shamans

Closed Thread
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
Old 04/11/09, 5:25 AM   #751
Furrybeast
Glass Joe
 
Draenei Shaman
 
Dath'Remar
Originally Posted by Binkenstein View Post
You're partially right.
As it stands, Lava > FT
In 3.1 with the T8 bonuses, FT > Lava. However, ToW is better than both

Perhaps replacing the LB glyph with ToW would work, yet that still leaves a nice 2% crit out of the way, oh for the beta inscription bonus .

Binkenstein, I would humbly request your opinion on my gem/enchanting, and what in your opinion a better rotation is.

Currently for me, i open fights with FS, LvB, LB, LB, LB, CL, LB, LvB, LB, LB, etc. I tend to throw in a CL whenever it is off cooldown. Yet I've heard opening with LB or another spell is better, is there a definitive best rotation to use? Or is it really haste dependent?

Offline
Old 04/11/09, 6:05 AM   #752
Agash
Piston Honda
 
Tauren Shaman
 
Khadgar (EU)
Originally Posted by Furrybeast View Post
And with regards to test, should I just empty my mana pool a few times against the boss level training dummy and then do the same with the other trinket equipped? I will post a WWS the moment the next raid I attend is finished, hopefully it will be a Patchwerk style fight.

Thanks for the reply
There are many different way you could set up a test depending how accurate you want your results to be. At the most basic level, yes, you just stick to your rotation and empty your mana pool. However, some people would prefer to remove some of the variables first so that as few as possible effect the results. For example, uneven LO distribution could sway the figures so you might want to take a spec without that to reduce the influence of RNG. The EO damage boost might also have a similar effect (imagine the difference between a test where every LvB had +10% damage vs one where none did). You might want to remove your other trinket so that it's procs do not influence the figures.

However, every change you make moves you further away from the 'reality' of your situation in a boss fight and you are already someway from it by not being fully raid buffed. Personally, I would keep your standard spec and gearing and just repeat the test many times to try and iron out RNG anomalies. Take a note each time of the crit %s on your spells and if any tests have abnormally high or low crit %s, throw them out. From each set of results, throw out the highest and lowest figures anyway so you are only looking at 'average' kind of figures - who knows what random occurence made them so high or so low? And of course make sure that nobody else is there debuffing the target dummy on some of the tests.

One other thing is that it might be worth stopping your rotation the first time you reach the end of it after getting below 2000 mana. There are 2 reasons for this. The first is that to be a really fair comparison you need to end all tests at the same point - a test that ends in a LvB will have slightly higher DPS than one that ends just before you are about to cast one. Also, by finishing at the end of your rotation, you ensure that the FS is not ticking as the ticks of the FS after you stop casting still get added to your numbers and lower the DPS.

As I suspect the results will come out fairly close, it will take quite a few tests before you can be sure you have found a reliable answer - be prepared to take some time over this!

Offline
Old 04/11/09, 8:16 AM   #753
Mmootimus
Piston Honda
 
Mmootimus's Avatar
 
Tauren Shaman
 
Quel'Thalas (EU)
Originally Posted by Furrybeast View Post
Perhaps replacing the LB glyph with ToW would work, yet that still leaves a nice 2% crit out of the way, oh for the beta inscription bonus .

Binkenstein, I would humbly request your opinion on my gem/enchanting, and what in your opinion a better rotation is.

Currently for me, i open fights with FS, LvB, LB, LB, LB, CL, LB, LvB, LB, LB, etc. I tend to throw in a CL whenever it is off cooldown. Yet I've heard opening with LB or another spell is better, is there a definitive best rotation to use? Or is it really haste dependent?
Don't make personal requests to Bink for help, he'll appear through your mirror and mess you up with extremely dry sarcasm.

Anyway, if you will accept some advice from a lesser mortal... Your gems are awful. You have the wrong meta, and pretty much every other slot is wrong. Look at a few people's armorys to see how they are doing it, but basically stop using crit and haste gems, and stop worrying about socket bonuses.

As for rotation, yes of course its haste dependent. I think almost everyone on these forums uses a set rotation now, as the main benefit of the priority system - extra damage through more CL - disappeared when we got the 3.08 buffs. I don't know what the DPS difference is now on paper between a good set rotation and a priority system, but I suspect its far too small to outweigh the convenience. Anyway, the correct rotation for you is quite easy to work out with some time spent at a target dummy, although I think somewhere on these boards there is a complete list of the "ideal" rotation at every haste level.

Offline
Old 04/11/09, 7:46 PM   #754
Elkhartadam
Glass Joe
 
Draenei Shaman
 
Dragonblight
Rotate and Gem

I noticed someone mentioned dropping their LB glyph. Why would you do this considering our LB is about to increase our dps with the T8 4x bonus. ToW, FS, and LB should be your three choices for glyphs. The reasons behind this are simple. Flame shock prevents you from wasting a cooldown. LB increases the dmg of your LB; therefore, increasing the dmg of your DoT from set bonus. The ToW glyph provides a permanent SP increase while your totem is out (should be constant on a boss).

Offline
Old 04/11/09, 11:43 PM   #755
Furrybeast
Glass Joe
 
Draenei Shaman
 
Dath'Remar
Originally Posted by Agash View Post
As I suspect the results will come out fairly close, it will take quite a few tests before you can be sure you have found a reliable answer - be prepared to take some time over this!
Thanks! I'll get down to it as soon as I can.

Originally Posted by Mmootimus
Don't make personal requests to Bink for help, he'll appear through your mirror and mess you up with extremely dry sarcasm.

Anyway, if you will accept some advice from a lesser mortal... Your gems are awful. You have the wrong meta, and pretty much every other slot is wrong. Look at a few people's armorys to see how they are doing it, but basically stop using crit and haste gems, and stop worrying about socket bonuses.

As for rotation, yes of course its haste dependent. I think almost everyone on these forums uses a set rotation now, as the main benefit of the priority system - extra damage through more CL - disappeared when we got the 3.08 buffs. I don't know what the DPS difference is now on paper between a good set rotation and a priority system, but I suspect its far too small to outweigh the convenience. Anyway, the correct rotation for you is quite easy to work out with some time spent at a target dummy, although I think somewhere on these boards there is a complete list of the "ideal" rotation at every haste level.
I'll keep it in mind .

So I need to drastically re-gem most of my gear, I'll browse around the boards and look at the best way to gem. I'll browse around the boards for that "ultimate rotation per haste" spreadsheet, thanks allot!

Originally Posted by Elkhartadam
I noticed someone mentioned dropping their LB glyph. Why would you do this considering our LB is about to increase our dps with the T8 4x bonus. ToW, FS, and LB should be your three choices for glyphs. The reasons behind this are simple. Flame shock prevents you from wasting a cooldown. LB increases the dmg of your LB; therefore, increasing the dmg of your DoT from set bonus. The ToW glyph provides a permanent SP increase while your totem is out (should be constant on a boss).
What I was saying was that in order to gain the SP boost from the ToW glyph we would need to drop another glyph and that it (Lightning Bolt) would be the best major glyph to drop in favor of the ToW one.

EDIT: Bad call on the LB glyph.

Last edited by Furrybeast : 04/12/09 at 2:57 AM.

Offline
Old 04/13/09, 11:54 AM   #756
Dimar
Glass Joe
 
Tauren Shaman
 
Tanaris
Originally Posted by Furrybeast View Post
So I need to drastically re-gem most of my gear, I'll browse around the boards and look at the best way to gem. I'll browse around the boards for that "ultimate rotation per haste" spreadsheet, thanks allot!
Check the Elemental TTT, it's what I used to fix my shaman up: http://elitistjerks.com/f47/t20914-shaman_elemental/

The only difference I made was if I 'needed' a blue gem I would use the hit/mp5 one instead of the hit/stam one in the TTT.

Offline
Old 04/14/09, 7:59 AM   #757
Alleyne
Glass Joe
 
Draenei Shaman
 
Darkspear (EU)
Just wondering if you could help me on where I'm going wrong, I know I messed up a few times and used LB instead of LvB but for my gear I should be doing around 600 DPS more and just don't know why I'm not higher.

Last Patchwerk kill Wow Web Stats

Was using 5 LB then LvB and trying to maintain FS up at all times but my rotation did mess up a few times and having around 600 ms didn't help at all so just wondering if you could help me get my DPS a bit higher.

Offline
Old 04/14/09, 9:05 AM   #758
Mmootimus
Piston Honda
 
Mmootimus's Avatar
 
Tauren Shaman
 
Quel'Thalas (EU)
Originally Posted by Alleyne View Post
Just wondering if you could help me on where I'm going wrong, I know I messed up a few times and used LB instead of LvB but for my gear I should be doing around 600 DPS more and just don't know why I'm not higher.

Last Patchwerk kill Wow Web Stats

Was using 5 LB then LvB and trying to maintain FS up at all times but my rotation did mess up a few times and having around 600 ms didn't help at all so just wondering if you could help me get my DPS a bit higher.
This reminds me of the conversation with Ghli on the previous page - I think it has to be a rotation issue.

Other than being a chunk over the hit cap your Armory is fine, just swap out some hit gems. You would benefit from using the badge ring, and possibly the badge cloth belt, although if 3.1 is tomorrow your easiest upgrade is to make sure you can buy Totem of Hex with badges.

I tend to draw the line at digging through WWS logs, but from the summary you cast too many FlS, not few LvB, and also too few CL. I would suggest you find a good fixed rotation for your haste level, and work at sticking to it. The latency you mentioned is also extremely high, and is likely to be having a significant effect if it is 600ms.


**********

Despite all my efforts I never got to hit 6k "clean" on Patch before 3.1 - Wow Web Stats

Offline
Old 04/14/09, 9:16 AM   #759
B-Dawg
Von Kaiser
 
B-Dawg's Avatar
 
Tauren Shaman
 
Sen'jin
Originally Posted by Mmootimus View Post
At any reasonable level of haste there will be time when you have LvB off CD, but have to wait 0.x of a second to cast it, as you are finishing another cast. Thats unavoidable.
So if LvB comes off CD in let's say 0.2 seconds after I just finished casting LB - what is my best course of action? Cast a CL if it's available or just wait those .2 seconds and wait for LvB and cast that? I'm basically just casting CL for those .x seconds since Elemental has been told to always be casting something no matter what, but have been wondering if I should just wait out those .x seconds for LvB and if that would be a dps increase.

Offline
Old 04/14/09, 1:19 PM   #760
Mmootimus
Piston Honda
 
Mmootimus's Avatar
 
Tauren Shaman
 
Quel'Thalas (EU)
Originally Posted by B-Dawg View Post
So if LvB comes off CD in let's say 0.2 seconds after I just finished casting LB - what is my best course of action? Cast a CL if it's available or just wait those .2 seconds and wait for LvB and cast that? I'm basically just casting CL for those .x seconds since Elemental has been told to always be casting something no matter what, but have been wondering if I should just wait out those .x seconds for LvB and if that would be a dps increase.
In terms of the whole "waiting" discussion, things happened rather the other way around.

Back in the dim distant past (ie. WotLK beta) there was a lot of talk about ideal haste ratings, haste "dead zones" and waiting times. Things were obviously a lot different then (mainly due to no Shamanism etc.) but the concept of waiting to cast LvB in some situations seemed to be at least theoretically a good one.

More recently a lot of anecdotal evidence has built up that waiting is always bad. I want to be very careful here, as to be honest the theorycraft doesn't really back up the evidence. In theory waiting 0.2secs out of a rotation that takes 20secs+ is not a big deal at all, just a loss of <1% of DPS time. In reality it appears to knock a much, much bigger % off your DPS. The argument has been suggested that waiting is made worse by having nothing in the pre-cast system, and therefore you will be hit with the full effects of latency... but even that doesn't fully explain it to me.

So yes, I would always cast something - or even better check your rotation to try and minimize the awkward 0.2sec gaps. But I wouldn't say we fully understand the mechanics.

Offline
Old 04/14/09, 6:02 PM   #761
B-Dawg
Von Kaiser
 
B-Dawg's Avatar
 
Tauren Shaman
 
Sen'jin
Thanks, I do remember people originally saying "wait for those .x seconds" and as of recently the concensus is to cast something. I was also wondering if people are still using AHK? I stopped using mine, mainly because I got a new PC and have been too lazy to re-install it and have just been mashing on my keys repeatedly instead of the ease of just holding them down. I remember it improving my dps slightly because it would always make sure you're queued up for your next spell regardless of lag.

Offline
Old 04/14/09, 6:11 PM   #762
Mmootimus
Piston Honda
 
Mmootimus's Avatar
 
Tauren Shaman
 
Quel'Thalas (EU)
Stopped using AHK sometime around a year ago when blues made it clear that it was 100% illegal for anything but multi-boxing. Not that I have heard of anyone banned from using it, and some do still claim to use it with no problems.

I found a mouse with a free-spin wheel does the same job anyway.

Offline
Old 04/14/09, 10:56 PM   #763
Turnaga
Glass Joe
 
Tauren Shaman
 
Sargeras
I'm sure it may be in here, but I cannot find it. Glyph of Totem of Wrath versus Glyph of Lightning Bolt, what would be most beneficial?

Offline
Old 04/15/09, 1:26 AM   #764
Negre
Glass Joe
 
Tauren Shaman
 
Twisting Nether
Originally Posted by Turnaga View Post
I'm sure it may be in here, but I cannot find it. Glyph of Totem of Wrath versus Glyph of Lightning Bolt, what would be most beneficial?
Pretty sure you want to keep Glyph of LB, but Glyph of ToW and Glyph of Lava are pretty close. I believe the conclusion was that Glyph of ToW was better until you get above a certain amount of spellpower (~2400 unbuffed I think?).

Offline
Old 04/15/09, 2:56 PM   #765
Nyclone
Glass Joe
 
Orc Shaman
 
Kargath
To further extrapolate on this topic, at what spell power threshold is Glyph of totem of wrath > Glyph of Lava? If Lavaburst is roughly 25% of your total boss dmg for a typical 4 hour raid(naxx run+), and totem of wrath gives 84 EXTRA spellpower that does stack with the totem being down, at what level of SP would lava be more beneficial?

Since lavaburst is getting the 84 spell power bonus as well as all your other damaging spells, the conversion seems difficult to determine.

So, is lavaburst having 110% of spell power effectiveness greater than all your damaging spell having 84 flat spell power?



Please answer with rationale and possibly supporting math if you could.


IF THERE IS A REFERENCE POST NUMBER THAT ANSWERS THIS PLEASE JUST POST THAT IF YOU CAN.

Offline
Closed Thread

Go Back   Elitist Jerks » Class Mechanics » Shamans

Thread Tools

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
[Druid] Gearing Your End ame Tree Machia The Dung Heap 1 11/11/07 10:31 AM
[Warlock] Gearing up for PvP Tors Player vs. Player 8 10/02/07 9:40 PM
gearing for the arena Malan Public Discussion 26 02/23/07 12:43 PM
Gearing up for raiding Mesquite Public Discussion 28 12/02/05 6:16 PM