[Enhancement] OH Weapon Choices

Levva · 01/06/09, 12:20 PM

The idea of this thread is to draw together collected wisdom on our OH weapon choices and provide a single place to update the latest known information with the goal of providing information for a detailed OH weapon selection section in the TTT. I'm happy to maintain this thread with the results of testing done and adjusting it as and when we get new weapon choices or patches change things.

Proposed methodology

1) start with a default base config file with an agreed set of stats

2) list the weapons and have an agreed variance about how much each stat in the sim config needs changed

3) run the sim with ONLY those agreed changes for each weapon

This should give decent base figures for each weapon for evaluation purposes. From that we can then look at the effects of subsiduary changes eg: using different glyphs for a fast vs a slow weapon.

As new weapons are added we can evaluate them on the same basis. Of course individuals may see different results as they will have lesser gear than the optimised base config. However if we use an agreed base config we have a methodology to work with to come up with solid numbers for theorycrafting.

The base config file used was :

simulation_time                 10000
simulation_time_combatlog       30
combat_length                   6
report_count                    80
threads                         2
min_lag                         0
max_lag                         0
simulate_mana                   0

ep_precision                    2
ep_base_stat                    ap
ep_ap                           64
ep_crit_rating                  46
ep_hit_rating                   30
ep_expertise                    4
ep_haste_rating                 33
ep_armor_penetration_rating     15
ep_spellpower                   28
ep_dps                          10.0
ep_mana                         200
ep_spirit                       100
ep_mp5                          20

mh_auto_attack                  1
oh_auto_attack                  1
wait_ss_with_wf_cd              0
cast_ll_only_if_wf_on_cd        0
bloodlust_casters               2
sync_bloodlust_with_trinkets    0
cast_lvb_only_if_ed_left        15
cast_lvb_only_if_fsdots_left    4
cast_lvb_only_if_fs_active      1
cast_fs_only_if_dots_left       0
cast_ls_only_if_charges_left    0
cast_sr_only_if_mana_left       700
use_mana_potion_if_mana_left    3000

rotation_priority_count         5
rotation_priority1              MW5_LB
rotation_priority2              SS
rotation_priority3              ES
rotation_priority4              LL
rotation_priority5              LS

miss                            9.00
dodge                           6.50
glancing                        25.00
armor                           13083
spell_miss                      17.00
nature_resistance               0
fire_resistance                 0
frost_resistance                0
arcane_resistance               0
shadow_resistance               0

armor_debuff_major              3925/3925
armor_debuff_minor              1260/1260
physical_vulnerability_debuff   2.0/2.0
melee_haste_buff                20.0/20.0
melee_crit_chance_buff          5.0/5.0
attack_power_buff_flat          688/688
attack_power_buff_multiplier    99.7/99.7
spell_haste_buff                5.0/5.0
spell_crit_chance_buff          5.0/5.0
spell_crit_chance_debuff        10.0/10.0
spell_damage_debuff             13.0/13.0
spellpower_buff                 280/280
spell_hit_chance_debuff         3.0/3.0
haste_buff                      3.0/3.0
percentage_damage_increase      3.0/3.0
crit_chance_debuff              3.0/3.0
stat_multiplier                 10.0/10.0
stat_add_buff                   52/52
agi_and_strength_buff           178/178
intellect_buff                  60/60

replenishment                   1
water_shield                    0
mana_spring_totem               1
blessing_of_wisdom              0
judgement_of_wisdom             1

flask_elixir                    flask_of_endless_rage
guardian_elixir                 -
potion                          haste_potion
food                            snapper_extreme
misc_item                       -

###############################################################################
### Everything in the section below can be replaced by information obtained ###
### from your paper doll stats or exported by the ShockAndAwe addon         ###
###############################################################################

race                            orc
mh_speed                        2.60
oh_speed                        1.80
mh_dps                          171.3
oh_dps                          171.3
mh_crit                         31.32
oh_crit                         31.32
mh_hit                          10
oh_hit                          10
mh_expertise_rating             216
oh_expertise_rating             216
ap                              3799
haste                           6
armor_penetration               2
str                             133
agi                             942
int                             523
spi                             156
spellpower                      1414
spell_crit                      23.67
spell_hit                       12.5
max_mana                        11961
mp5                             0

mh_imbue                        windfury
oh_imbue                        flametongue

mh_enchant                      berserking
oh_enchant                      berserking

mh_weapon                       -
oh_weapon                       -

trinket1                        darkmoon_card_greatness
trinket2                        mirror_of_truth

totem                           totem_of_dueling

set_bonus                       naxx_melee_4

metagem                         relentless_earthsiege_diamond

glyph_major1                    windfury_weapon
glyph_major2                    stormstrike
glyph_major3                    lightning_shield

glyph_minor1                    -
glyph_minor2                    -
glyph_minor3                    -

ancestral_knowledge             2/5
improved_shields                0/3
mental_dexterity                3/3
shamanistic_focus               1/1
flurry                          5/5
elemental_weapons               3/3
unleashed_rage                  5/5
weapon_mastery                  3/3
dual_wield_specialization       3/3
mental_quickness                3/3
improved_stormstrike            2/2
static_shock                    3/3
maelstrom_weapon                5/5

convection                      0/5
concussion                      5/5
call_of_flame                   0/3
elemental_devastation           3/3
reverberation                   0/5
elemental_focus                 1/1
elemental_fury                  5/5
call_of_thunder                 0/1
unrelenting_storm               0/5
elemental_precision             0/3
lightning_mastery               0/5
elemental_oath                  0/2
lightning_overload              0/5
lava_flows                      0/3
storm_earth_and_fire            0/5

The results so far are :

Name			iLvl	Type			DPS	Speed	Agi	Hit	AP	ArP	Crit	Haste	Exp			
Anarchy			213	Dagger			156.4	1.8	29	28	86	25						
Angry Dread		213	One-Handed Mace		156.6	2.5	31	25	86		29					
Murder			213	Dagger			156.7	1.5	25	21	86			21				
Sinister Revenge	226	Dagger			171.1	1.8	36	37	98				24				
Split Greathammer	213	One-Handed Mace		156.6	1.6	43		66		29		21			
The Hand of Nerub	213	Fist Weapon		156.6	1.6	33	21	86		29					
Twilight Mist		213	Dagger			156.7	1.8	25	21	86			33				
Webbed Death		213	Dagger			156.4	1.4	43	21	66		31					
														
Differences from base stats of Sinister Revenge														
Name			iLvl	Type			DPS	Speed	Agi	Hit	AP	ArP	Crit	Haste	Exp			
Anarchy			213	Dagger			156.4	1.8	-7	-9	-12	25	0	-24	0			
Angry Dread		213	One-Handed Mace		156.6	2.5	-5	-12	-12	0	29	-24	0			
Murder			213	Dagger			156.7	1.5	-11	-16	-12	0	0	-3	0			
Sinister Revenge	226	Dagger			171.1	1.8	0	0	0	0	0	0	0			
Split Greathammer	213	One-Handed Mace		156.6	1.6	7	-37	-32	0	29	-24	21			
The Hand of Nerub	213	Fist Weapon		156.6	1.6	-3	-16	-12	0	29	-24	0			
Twilight Mist		213	Dagger			156.7	1.8	-11	-16	-12	0	0	9	0			
Webbed Death		213	Dagger			156.4	1.4	7	-16	-32	0	31	-24	0			
														
Sim adjustments									Hit Percentage			Crit Percentage				
Name			iLvl	Type			DPS	Speed	Agi	Melee	Spell	AP	ArP	Melee	Spell	Haste	Exp	Spellpower
Anarchy			213	Dagger			156.4	1.8	-7	-0.27	-0.34	-19	1.62	-0.08	0.00	-0.73	0	-6
Angry Dread		213	One-Handed Mace		156.6	2.5	-5	-0.37	-0.46	-17	0.00	0.57	0.63	-0.73	0	-6
Murder			213	Dagger			156.7	1.5	-11	-0.49	-0.61	-23	0.00	-0.13	0.00	-0.09	0	-8
Sinister Revenge	226	Dagger			171.1	1.8	0	0.00	0.00	0	0.00	0.00	0.00	0.00	0	0
Split Greathammer	213	One-Handed Mace		156.6	1.6	7	-1.13	-1.41	-25	0.00	0.72	0.63	-0.73	21	-8
The Hand of Nerub	213	Fist Weapon		156.6	1.6	-3	-0.49	-0.61	-15	0.00	0.60	0.63	-0.73	0	-5
Twilight Mist		213	Dagger			156.7	1.8	-11	-0.49	-0.61	-23	0.00	-0.13	0.00	0.27	0	-8
Webbed Death		213	Dagger			156.4	1.4	7	-0.49	-0.61	-25	0.00	0.76	0.68	-0.73	0	-8
														
Sim Results														
Name			iLvl	Type			DPS	Speed	Sim DPS								
Anarchy			213	Dagger			156.4	1.8	5437.03								
Angry Dread		213	One-Handed Mace		156.6	2.5	5396.01								
Murder			213	Dagger			156.7	1.5										
Sinister Revenge	226	Dagger			171.1	1.8	5492.33								
Split Greathammer	213	One-Handed Mace		156.6	1.6										
The Hand of Nerub	213	Fist Weapon		156.6	1.6										
Twilight Mist		213	Dagger			156.7	1.8										
Webbed Death		213	Dagger			156.4	1.4

At present the results are incomplete as I'd prefer to wait until we agree a default starting config file to use. Once we have the basics of the methodology in place we can run sims on various setups of things like glyph/talent changes to see effects on different weapon speeds all using the same basic gear setup.

This thread can and probably should be used to discuss OH weapon dps simulation results rather than cluttering up the sim thread.

Rouncer · 01/06/09, 12:22 PM

Webbed Death is a 1.4 speed dagger.

I'm not sure I agree with the concept of this thread to be honest.

Offhands are incredibly capricious at the moment and there really is no way to say which is better then any other except by simming it out.

By capricious what I am referring to is the interaction between Lava Lash damage and Flametongue. Since Lava Lash favors a slow offhand and Flametongue likes them as fast as it can get them. So personal haste and whether you are running with zerker or goose will play a large roll as will whether you have 4pc T7 or not. Also using Wrathstrike for a mainhand will favor Flametongue since the spellpower on it does nothing for Lava Lash.

Discussing offhand options is fine but unless there is a change in Flametongue mechanics there will never be a definitive answer for what is the best offhand. The closest you can get is saying if you have the BiS of everything else then this is your best option BUT until that point it could a significant dps loss, so use the Sim and draw your own conclusions from that.

aries · 01/06/09, 1:32 PM

Originally Posted by Rounced

Webbed Death is a 1.4 speed dagger.

I'm not sure I agree with the concept of this thread to be honest.

Offhands are incredibly capricious at the moment and there really is no way to say which is better then any other except by simming it out.

By capricious what I am referring to is the interaction between Lava Lash damage and Flametongue. Since Lava Lash favors a slow offhand and Flametongue likes them as fast as it can get them. So personal haste and whether you are running with zerker or goose will play a large roll as will whether you have 4pc T7 or not. Also using Wrathstrike for a mainhand will favor Flametongue since the spellpower on it does nothing for Lava Lash.

Discussing offhand options is fine but unless there is a change in Flametongue mechanics there will never be a definitive answer for what is the best offhand. The closest you can get is saying if you have the BiS of everything else then this is your best option BUT until that point it could a significant dps loss, so use the Sim and draw your own conclusions from that.

I don't think this concept is irrelivent at all. Why is The Stray not in contention of the weapons listed above though?

I have been trying to learn more about it as we have gone forward. I still to this day cannot decern which weapon is better for me between "The Stray" & "The Hand of Nerub" I have been testing both for weeks and they seem to be very close in DPS. Which is better? I have stuck with the Slow/Slow but would love to think Nerub is better. I like the stats more/

The World of Warcraft Armory

Here is my armory...

• Juice · 01/06/09, 3:56 PM

To echo what Rouncer has offered, what makes the OH consideration any different than determining one's best in slot options for legs or shoulders? In the end, it varies based on the other gear in your posession, and thus is best left for a simulator. I can see the value in grouping weapons with 'rule of thumb' classifications for the TTT, but do we need a theorycrafting thread specific to OH weapons? Why isn't this adequately covered by the EnhSim thread?

I'm absolutely in favor of distilling weapon selections to several broad groups and then adding this information to the TTT (with the caveat that the best choice can only be made with the help of the simulator). If that's the purpose of this thread, then OK let's get it done, update the TTT, and then close this thread. Correct me if I'm wrong here...

Rouncer · 01/06/09, 5:08 PM

I guess there could be some way to mathematically graph out the interaction of Lava Lash, Flametongue, Haste, Spellpower and Weapon Speed but that is way beyond my meager math skills.

If people want to theorize on how to map that out and create graphs which show the interaction points so that offhand weapon speed gains it's own EP values on a haste chart at various levels of spellpower; then I could see value in talking about this further. Personally my head started swimming just writing the last sentence so I don't even know where one would begin and if it would even be worth that much work to attempt to do it in the first place.

Honestly the best thing that could be done would be find a way (I know Levva said he was working on it) to set up equipment sets in Rawr and then import the stats of that set into the Sim. That way modeling various offhands wouldn't take as much time or work to reconfigure the stats for the various weapons.

All that said if all this thread is going to be people asking others to look at their armories and tell them what offhand to use then Juice should just lock it now.

Glitchlol · 01/06/09, 5:10 PM

There are several reports of the bugged [Brunnhildar Axe] being the best offhand out there due to nature of double FT procs.

I've run some target dummy tests quickly before heading off to work this morning, but it looks like duel wielding these weapons shows a big improvement in dps. The question might be if raid buffs push white/WF damage up, which i'll be testing in tonight's raid.

Note: I only have 400 weapon skill in Axes. I realize this might have had a huge impact on my white damage.

Comparison of recount data is here:
Overclockers Australia Pix

[e] Fixed link.

◊ foolish_fool · 01/06/09, 7:34 PM

Originally Posted by Rounced

I guess there could be some way to mathematically graph out the interaction of Lava Lash, Flametongue, Haste, Spellpower and Weapon Speed but that is way beyond my meager math skills.

If people want to theorize on how to map that out and create graphs which show the interaction points so that offhand weapon speed gains it's own EP values on a haste chart at various levels of spellpower; then I could see value in talking about this further. Personally my head started swimming just writing the last sentence so I don't even know where one would begin and if it would even be worth that much work to attempt to do it in the first place.

I will likely have a go at this when I get home from work, but I thought I should check some of the assumptions I was considering making first. It would be reasonable to assume, I think, that you are exactly (spell) hit and expertise capped. I would like to assume that one has approximately the same spell crit and melee crit (and thus take crit out of the equation), but the more I think about it the more this worries me. Haste, AP (and thus spellpower) and weapon speed are the three obvious factors to be considered, and their effect on the damage of Lava Lash, Stormstrike, Flametongue and possibly Maelstrom procs. Is there anything else I need to consider?

Edit: two -> three.

Rouncer · 01/06/09, 9:53 PM

Originally Posted by foolish_fool

I will likely have a go at this when I get home from work, but I thought I should check some of the assumptions I was considering making first. It would be reasonable to assume, I think, that you are exactly (spell) hit and expertise capped. I would like to assume that one has approximately the same spell crit and melee crit (and thus take crit out of the equation), but the more I think about it the more this worries me. Haste, AP (and thus spellpower) and weapon speed are the three obvious factors to be considered, and their effect on the damage of Lava Lash, Stormstrike, Flametongue and possibly Maelstrom procs. Is there anything else I need to consider?

Edit: two -> three.

I think you could pull crit outta the equation since it should equalize between Lava Lash and Flametongue (basically). Besides this would be meant more as a guideline on what to look at then a definitive solution. People would be using this as a knowledge base and then putting it all through the Sim to confirm their conclusions.

Can't wait to see what you come up with since this is something that has been nagging me for awhile and I just have no idea how to even approach the equations to make it all work.

Levva · 01/07/09, 6:16 AM

Originally Posted by Juice

To echo what Rouncer has offered, what makes the OH consideration any different than determining one's best in slot options for legs or shoulders? In the end, it varies based on the other gear in your posession, and thus is best left for a simulator. I can see the value in grouping weapons with 'rule of thumb' classifications for the TTT, but do we need a theorycrafting thread specific to OH weapons? Why isn't this adequately covered by the EnhSim thread?

I'm absolutely in favor of distilling weapon selections to several broad groups and then adding this information to the TTT (with the caveat that the best choice can only be made with the help of the simulator). If that's the purpose of this thread, then OK let's get it done, update the TTT, and then close this thread. Correct me if I'm wrong here...

My thought was that the EnhSim thread was in danger of becoming a mega thread and a dumping ground for not directly related posts. There was a flurry of OH weapon comparison posts for example, and I understood that the new forum philosophy was to have several specialist threads rather than build up confusing mega threads.

I therefore thought that in keeping with the "avoid mega threads" philosophy keeping a separate thread devoted to OH weapons was appropriate. The reason I feel OH weapons discussion is different to legs or shoulders is that there is a fundamental question at the heart of the discussion "Does weapon speed matter?" as well as subsidiary questions "What imbue is best for that speed of weapon?", "Does weapon speed choice affect glyph choice?" etc there is no similar fundamental question to be asked about legs, shoulders etc.

A thread that can debate and give the answer to this fundamental question I felt was appropriate, however if the mods feel this isn't appropriate then of course the thread should be locked. I have no problem with that at all.

SentinelBorg · 01/07/09, 6:26 AM

Originally Posted by Levva

My thought was that the EnhSim thread was in danger of becoming a mega thread and a dumping ground for not directly related posts. There was a flurry of OH weapon comparison posts for example, and I understood that the new forum philosophy was to have several specialist threads rather than build up confusing mega threads.

I therefore thought that in keeping with the "avoid mega threads" philosophy keeping a separate thread devoted to OH weapons was appropriate. The reason I feel OH weapons discussion is different to legs or shoulders is that there is a fundamental question at the heart of the discussion "Does weapon speed matter?" as well as subsidiary questions "What imbue is best for that speed of weapon?", "Does weapon speed choice affect glyph choice?" etc there is no similar fundamental question to be asked about legs, shoulders etc.

A thread that can debate and give the answer to this fundamental question I felt was appropriate, however if the mods feel this isn't appropriate then of course the thread should be locked. I have no problem with that at all.

I agree, in my opinion the simulator thread should concentrate on topics concerning the usage of the tool and the quality of its results. So if the simulator's results differ from reality, this would be something that should be discussed in the sim thread. But not the general discussion on the choice of gear.

◊ foolish_fool · 01/07/09, 8:22 AM

I have some very preliminary results that I don't really want to post until I have everything reasonably accurate. It is going to be very....averageish (as with everything, no substitute for the sim, but a nice preliminary guide). What I need to know is this:

1) Is there an easy way to calculate flurry uptime (preferably as a function soley of offhand speed and crit rate, assuming say, a 2.6 speed main hand with windfury)? I am guessing not, which means I may have to do some regression with the sim (if anyone already knows coefficients of this type of regression that would be awesome).

2) Confirming: Stormstrike is effected by armour, Lava Lash is not?

At the moment probably the 3 key lines of code that I need people to look over for me are:


			
oh_ss_dam = (wdps+ap/14)*oh_speed*(1+crit/100)*1.1*0.5 #damage offhand contributes to stormstrike, 

                                      #need to modify this by armour (average)

oh_ll_dam = (wdps+ap/14)*oh_speed*(1+crit/100)*1.1*0.5*1.25 #damage of a Lava Lash



hits_min = (1-10.2/100)*(flurry_uptime*(60)/(oh_speed/(1+(haste+20)/100)/1.3)

     +(1-flurry_uptime)*(60)/(oh_speed/(1+(haste+20)/100)))

#number of melee autoattacks in a minute

#(1-10.2/100) being the proportion of those that hit, when exactly spell-hit and expertise capped

#20 being the haste from windfury totem, 1.3 being flurry haste.

The flurry haste bit is what really needs checking.

gilf · 01/07/09, 9:55 AM

I am just finishing up leveling my dagger skill, but the real question in this thread that I haven't seen is: do matched weapon speeds result in higher flurry uptime in game like they do in the sim?

If, for example, you run the sim with the stray as a 2.59 speed, for example, DPS will drop significantly (~1-2%) due primarily to a decrease in flurry uptime. If this is a bug, it will likely dominate over any changes in dps you can see from, say, a 2.6 ilvl 200 weapon to a 1.8 speed 213 weapon.

I've not had a chance to test this in game. There are a few posts dealing with this in the enhsim thread, but no extensive discussion and I was never aware of any conclusion. If I am mistaken, perhaps it could be codified here before we really get down to business.

Malan · 01/07/09, 10:50 AM

Honestly we can't even declare armor items to be universally best in slot anymore. This was illustrated the other day when Rounce and I were talking about neck rewards from the 25man Eye of Eternity quest, and his BiS was the caster neck and mine was the melee neck, all because he had 4pc T7 for the flurry bonus.

The changes in 3.0 gave us a lot more choice but ultimately made everything a hell of a lot more confusing in my opinion. Everything has to be simmed, and nothing is static.

• Juice · 01/07/09, 11:02 AM

Originally Posted by Levva

A thread that can debate and give the answer to this fundamental question I felt was appropriate, however if the mods feel this isn't appropriate then of course the thread should be locked. I have no problem with that at all.

Well, I'm not lock-happy. I want to be open-minded and let the forum contributors be as flexible as they need to be to realize their full potential. We can play this by ear and see how it goes. If it devolves into people asking which offhand they should use and how they should enchant it, then we'll close it down. Obviously serious forum contributors like yoursef aren't part of that sort of problem.

Is it reasonable to draw some broad conclusions from this discussion and compile them to a TTT update in a week or two? I'd like to get all the benefit out of this thread and then close it, because I think it will draw the wrong types of posts if we leave it open indefinitely. That said, if it needs to stay open for its benefit to be realized, we'll just moderate it appropriately.

• Shabadu · 01/07/09, 11:07 AM

Threads like these are the whole point of having class specific forums. A chance to cut down on the clutter of megathreads and focus our energies on specific issues. Weapons and to a lesser extent trinkets are highly visable and desirable cross class and it benefits to separate them out from general itemization threads for the benefit of non shamans looking to see what we desire and how to best avoid loot issues. I know if I suddenly simmed webbed death to be BiS rogues would want to know, and then I could link them here and show them.

Skarsnik-nyo · 01/07/09, 11:15 AM

I think there is something wrong with using dagger, I don't know if is still true but in white damage calculation the weapon speed is normalized, depending on the weapon's type (Normalization - WoWWiki - Your guide to the World of Warcraft).
Dagguer is the worst case in normalization calculation.

I looked at Enhsim's source code and I didn't see this normalization. (I may have missed something)

On the topic of Offhands, I know flametongue proc are the main source of dps and not white damage, but maybe it can make the difference between two weapons.

Stopokingme · 01/07/09, 11:35 AM

Originally Posted by Skarsnik-nyo

I looked at Enhsim's source code and I didn't see this normalization. (I may have missed something)

That's because no shaman attack is normalized.

Rouncer · 01/07/09, 12:04 PM

Originally Posted by Shabadu

I know if I suddenly simmed webbed death to be BiS rogues would want to know, and then I could link them here and show them.

With my spellpower mainhand (damn you KT).

Webbed Death - 5186.63
Murder - 5154.84
Hand of Nerub - 5139.17
Angry Dread - 5094.89

Not sure how much of a dps increase Webbed Death is for a Rogue, bet it is at least that much though.

Skarsnik-nyo · 01/07/09, 12:18 PM

Err, Sorry I always tought auto attack are also normalized.

Offhand for non heroic raider.

Name			iLvl	Type			DPS	Speed	Agi	Hit	AP	ArP	Crit	Haste	Exp
Maexxna's Femur		200	Mace			143.4	1.6	27		76	19		29
Omen of Ruin		200	Dagger			143.3	1.5	29		76	19	29
Rolfsen's Ripper	200	Dagger			143.2	1.7			78			50
Titansteel Shanker	200	Dagger			143.4	1.6			106		23
Knife of Incision	200	Dagger			143.3	1.8	19		78		29	26
The Fleshshaper		200	Dagger			143.3	1.8	22	27	76
Pride			200	Fist			143.6	2.5		50	76
The Stray		200	Fist			143.5	2.6	22	27	76			26

Sinister Revenge	226	Dagger			171.1	1.8	36	37	98				24


Differences from base stats of Sinister Revenge														
Name			iLvl	Type			DPS	Speed	Agi	Hit	AP	ArP	Crit	Haste	Exp
Maexxna's Femur		200	Mace			143.4	1.6	-9	-37	-22	19		29	-24
Omen of Ruin		200	Dagger			143.3	1.5	-7		-22	19	29		-24
Rolfsen's Ripper	200	Dagger			143.2	1.7	-36	-37	-20			50	-24
Titansteel Shanker	200	Dagger			143.4	1.6	-36	-37	8		23		-24
Knife of Incision	200	Dagger			143.3	1.8	-17	-37	-20		29	26	-24
The Fleshshaper		200	Dagger			143.3	1.8	-14	-10	-22				-24
Pride			200	Fist			143.6	2.5	-36	13	-22				-24
The Stray		200	Fist			143.5	2.6	-14	-10	-22			26	-24

Xieon · 01/07/09, 12:46 PM

Let's focus on endgame here. Obviously, if you aren't in max 10/25 gear, your stats will vary throughout the gearing up process, repeat the mantra, gear accordingly. The goal of the thread should be to isolate an optimal set of stats curerently attainable and then test weapons against those stats.

Can we agree on a set armor loadout or stats? Should the four piece set bonus be standard in the highest DPS set? Can we agree that Calamity is the pinnacle of main hands for now, or does this discussion need to widen to total weapon choice again? Nail down some base stats and it should be trivial to sim the weapons against it. I understand that the weapon stats will adjust the other gear slightly, but with gemming, we should be able to negate any major discrepencies. If we get a few people to agree with Rounced's best gear, we can run off of that. There is a finite number of gearing choices, there should be a final answer.

Slightly off-topic, are there any 'dressing room' sites that you would recommend to make this easier? Rawr is reasonable, but I have to do all of the conversions by hand, or I'm missing something?

panny · 01/07/09, 1:47 PM

Originally Posted by Glitchlol

There are several reports of the bugged [Brunnhildar Axe] being the best offhand out there due to nature of double FT procs.

I've run some target dummy tests quickly before heading off to work this morning, but it looks like duel wielding these weapons shows a big improvement in dps. The question might be if raid buffs push white/WF damage up, which i'll be testing in tonight's raid.

Note: I only have 400 weapon skill in Axes. I realize this might have had a huge impact on my white damage.

Comparison of recount data is here:
Overclockers Australia Pix

[e] Fixed link.

If you (or anyone else) has some good spelldamage gear, I'd love to see some parses with double [Brunnhildar Axe] FB/FT. With my current gear (4pcT7), these axes are something like 300 DPS more than my [Kel'Thuzad's Reach], which is rather hilarious.

ncervantes · 01/07/09, 1:47 PM

Originally Posted by Rounced

With my spellpower mainhand (damn you KT).

Webbed Death - 5186.63
Murder - 5154.84
Hand of Nerub - 5139.17
Angry Dread - 5094.89

Not sure how much of a dps increase Webbed Death is for a Rogue, bet it is at least that much though.

Rounced, maybe it's just me but wasn't the concern of adding the flametongue weapon spell power into your sim brought up in the EnhSim thread. The original sim here is showing 1414 spellpower. I may not have the best gear in the game but I know mine is pretty decent and I'm no where near 1414 without flametongue. As stated before, you probably have the highest spellpower in the game and maybe your sim is showing a fast OH to be best becasue the benefit of the added flametongue hits with high spell power out weigh the loss in dps from lava lash but I know once I fixed mine, Angry Dread won buy a large margin (which I won lat night). I've seen what a difference high spell power and 4 piece T7 Melee set can make to these numbers. I just don't understand how using someone else's paper doll stats can help you make the best OH choice for your gear. Am I missing something?

tarrick · 01/07/09, 2:00 PM

Originally Posted by panny

If you (or anyone else) has some good spelldamage gear, I'd love to see some parses with double [Brunnhildar Axe] FB/FT. With my current gear (4pcT7), these axes are something like 300 DPS more than my [Kel'Thuzad's Reach], which is rather hilarious.

I'm currently elemental spec with 1983 spell power (not counting ToW or the dragon soul trinket). I intended to run some trials on this last night, but didn't get on early enough before raid. I'll try to get in some initial trials tonight before raid.

Rouncer · 01/07/09, 2:12 PM

Originally Posted by ncervantes

Rounced, maybe it's just me but wasn't the concern of adding the flametongue weapon spell power into your sim brought up in the EnhSim thread. The original sim here is showing 1414 spellpower. I may not have the best gear in the game but I know mine is pretty decent and I'm no where near 1414 without flametongue. As stated before, you probably have the highest spellpower in the game and maybe your sim is showing a fast OH to be best becasue the benefit of the added flametongue hits with high spell power out weigh the loss in dps from lava lash but I know once I fixed mine, Angry Dread won buy a large margin (which I won lat night). I've seen what a difference high spell power and 4 piece T7 Melee set can make to these numbers. I just don't understand how using someone else's paper doll stats can help you make the best OH choice for your gear. Am I missing something?

My current setup just swapping CG for Wrathstrike gives 5151.69dps when simmed with Hand of Nerub (which is my current offhand) versus the 5139.17 I get for Wrathstrike + Hand of Nerub.

Changing to CG + WD gives 5185.28dps. Which is basically the same as Wrathstrike + WD although the moment the new Windfury Glyph becomes available CG will blow the doors off Wrathstrike with everything else staying constant.

Calamities Grasp + Angry Dread with the rest of my gear sims out to 5149.16dps

Paenor · 01/07/09, 3:06 PM

Originally Posted by Levva

My thought was that the EnhSim thread was in danger of becoming a mega thread and a dumping ground for not directly related posts. There was a flurry of OH weapon comparison posts for example, and I understood that the new forum philosophy was to have several specialist threads rather than build up confusing mega threads.

Sorry about that, I didn't really have anywhere else to post my spelldamage mainhand/fast offhand research as I didn't/don't have enough posts to make a new thread. The discussion in the EnhSim thread was topical at the time, so I put it there.

Originally Posted by Rounced

My current setup just swapping CG for Wrathstrike gives 5151.69dps when simmed with Hand of Nerub (which is my current offhand) versus the 5139.17 I get for Wrathstrike + Hand of Nerub.

On a slightly selfish note, what happens when you replace Wrathstrike with a faster caster weapon and put flametongue on it?

Also, from what i've seen running sims in the past, offhands seem to be a 'go big(or small) or go home' kind of thing when it comes to speed. It's been shown that the slower the better, but it seems to work the opposite way too. However, you can't seem to really notice a dps improvement with fast off hands until around 1.5 speed. In previous testing [Sinister Revenge] was slightly worse than Angry Dread even with it's higher DPS. However, [Last Laugh] was coming out very nearly as good as Sinister's Revenge, despite having terrible stats. Going down even faster, Webbed Death was coming out in front of everything under some circumstances.