Except that they are not applicable to real raiding conditions since they become unsynced very easily and to resync them is a huge dps loss while you are involved in a boss fight.
I've found that once they're synced it's rare to get unsynced unless you switch targets. Is there something else that you think makes unsyncing very easy?
I haven't had matched weapons in awhile but I remember them never staying synced for very long. I could be wrong but won't know until either the trash gives up a Stray or Blizzard gives us another 2.6 offhand worth using.
I've found that once they're synced it's rare to get unsynced unless you switch targets. Is there something else that you think makes unsyncing very easy?
Even if that is true that they stay synced while you are on target, they would still become unsynced during 90% of the encounters in game right now nullifying the advantage you gain. Patchwerk and Razuvious DPS may go up, but where else do you get to sit on one boss and have an unbroken chain of swings?
[Dezzimal] The first iteration of Algalon looted your raid after a kill and posted screenshots on his website.
Even if that is true that they stay synced while you are on target, they would still become unsynced during 90% of the encounters in game right now nullifying the advantage you gain. Patchwerk and Razuvious DPS may go up, but where else do you get to sit on one boss and have an unbroken chain of swings?
You don't need an unbroken chain of swings. You just need to keep autoswing running even if you aren't in range, and start your autoswing before you get in range. Unfortunately I don't have many wws parses of when I was running with matched weapons anymore, but here's one from before I knew how to sync my weapons:
Most of the attempts besides sartharion my weapons synced up and stayed there. Again, this was before I knew how to initiate my weapons in sync.
The only fights where I think flurry would be significatly lower than the sim would be fights with a lot of trash that you're cycling though (like when I was dpsing blazes in sartharion). Most dps race style fights are fights where you are on one target at a time for extended periods of time.
I've did some more testing yesterday of /startattck before I'm in range and it no longer puts me exactly in sync (only nearly in sync). I don't know if something else has changed, but there may be some gear related variable that determines start phase.
It would also be nice if people who are currently running with matched weapon speeds could donate some wws parses so we could see if my anecdotes hold up.
It would also be nice if people who are currently running with matched weapon speeds could donate some wws parses so we could see if my anecdotes hold up.
I'm glad this discussion is finally coming up again. I guess I missed it the first time. I haven't had a chance to test this, but it should be testable easily enough on a target dummy. 30 minutes of real dps from a matched weapon speed set and an unmatched weapon speed set. I don't think there are any other special considerations that need to be made, so long as there is not an appreciable difference in the hit/crit you have while using the weapons. The difference in flurry uptime predicted by the sim is much larger than the difference in hit/crit provided by 13-26 ilvl differences, in most cases.
It could then be possible to vary the test for more 'realistic' conditions. Once I get some spare time, I'll do this for myself.
I'm glad this discussion is finally coming up again. I guess I missed it the first time. I haven't had a chance to test this, but it should be testable easily enough on a target dummy. 30 minutes of real dps from a matched weapon speed set and an unmatched weapon speed set. I don't think there are any other special considerations that need to be made, so long as there is not an appreciable difference in the hit/crit you have while using the weapons. The difference in flurry uptime predicted by the sim is much larger than the difference in hit/crit provided by 13-26 ilvl differences, in most cases.
It could then be possible to vary the test for more 'realistic' conditions. Once I get some spare time, I'll do this for myself.
If you want to reference the earlier test I did with matched weapon speeds vs unmatched. EnhSim, DPS simulator
This was before I learned how to start the weapons closer to in sync. So the 30 minutes of autoattack had several minutes out of phase. I also didn't change the sim to have a 30 minute fight.
If I were to redo this test, I'd match the sim combat length to my test combat length. I'd also start combat like I normally do with a boss: running in already attacking instead of standing next to the boss and then starting combat.
Even if that is true that they stay synced while you are on target, they would still become unsynced during 90% of the encounters in game right now nullifying the advantage you gain. Patchwerk and Razuvious DPS may go up, but where else do you get to sit on one boss and have an unbroken chain of swings?
I am currently at a loss when attempting to understand how the weapons would unsync. My understanding of the attack system is as follows: two weapons have identical speeds they swing at the same time. If I were to switch targets, it should be impossible for me to unsync my weapons since both should hit at the same time. The only example to the contrary that I was able to conjure was if you switched targets and happened to get a MH swing off as the mob was edging out of range and the OH was never allowed to follow through due to ranging. This example, however, seems to fall outside of my previous understanding since both attacks should execute identically (with some variation for latency, I'd assume).
I've seen this argument stating that the weapons fall out of sync and have failed to see it while starring at mods like quartz on a test dummy. Is there something that I am missing or fundamentally have misunderstood?
(e) I've recently tried tabbing between two test dummies and have also failed to see the weapons fall out of sync.
I am currently at a loss when attempting to understand how the weapons would unsync. My understanding of the attack system is as follows: two weapons have identical speeds they swing at the same time. If I were to switch targets, it should be impossible for me to unsync my weapons since both should hit at the same time. The only example to the contrary that I was able to conjure was if you switched targets and happened to get a MH swing off as the mob was edging out of range and the OH was never allowed to follow through due to ranging. This example, however, seems to fall outside of my previous understanding since both attacks should execute identically (with some variation for latency, I'd assume).
I've seen this argument stating that the weapons fall out of sync and have failed to see it while starring at mods like quartz on a test dummy. Is there something that I am missing or fundamentally have misunderstood?
(e) I've recently tried tabbing between two test dummies and have also failed to see the weapons fall out of sync.
Any number of things can cause this. If you lose flurry for one hit from a weapon, they will un-sync. If you go out of melee range momentarily before you're second weapon hits, you will unsync. If you gain/lose a haste buff/totem/proc between un-synced hits, you will see an exacerbation of the unsyncing. I'm sure there's more situations that could occur other than what I just thought up in 20 seconds.
I, frankly, don't understand this fascination with syncing weapons. The only support for getting a benefit that I have ever seen were anecdotal references with people saying "I always notice I do more dps when my weapons are synced". How do you know your weapons are synced? Do you have a mod to monitor the timing of your hits? Did you go back and analyze combat logs and WWS parses to support this theory? If so, I'm sure many of us would like to see this information... Do we have anything other than a sim which shows that synced weapons = higher dps? (e) In other words, we know there is a phenomenon where the sim shows higher dps when this occurs but to my knowledge no one has offered an theory as to why and it seems to have been passed off greatly as an unknown interaction in the sim.
And, given someone who has weapons of equals speeds, doesn't it seem logical that keeping them synced would mean that you would have fully hasted attacks at all times and not losing any hits due to movement on a fight, etc -- thus keeping the weapon speeds the same -- and thus would lead to the greatest dps? Furthermore, if for some reason there is some magic to syncing weapons, how do you propose someone goes about doing that? Step away until both swing timers reset?
In closing, I don't see the relevance of this discussion. I have seen no evidence of such a phenomenon in this or any other thread or live in-game and see no way to either benefit from or attempt to replicate the syncing. If I'm wrong here, perhaps someone can come up with a theory based on good math (not anecdote) to support such a phenomenon or maybe come up with some parses which show the interaction of syncing weapons and significant dps gain.
Any number of things can cause this. If you lose flurry for one hit from a weapon, they will un-sync. If you go out of melee range momentarily before you're second weapon hits, you will unsync. If you gain/lose a haste buff/totem/proc between un-synced hits, you will see an exacerbation of the unsyncing. I'm sure there's more situations that could occur other than what I just thought up in 20 seconds.
Matched weapon speed can allow for the weapons to be perfectly in phase or synced. This means both weapons hit at the same time.
If they are synced all affects happen at the same point in the swing for both weapons. If all affect happen at the same point in the swing on both weapons they won't get unsynced. I have posted wws earlier in this thread showing synced weapons which supports this view.
How do you suggest that flurry can unsync the weapons? Do you have any evidence that it can happen?
Matched weapon speed can allow for the weapons to be perfectly in phase or synced. This means both weapons hit at the same time.
If they are synced all affects happen at the same point in the swing for both weapons. If all affect happen at the same point in the swing on both weapons they won't get unsynced. I have posted wws earlier in this thread showing synced weapons which supports this view.
How do you suggest that flurry can unsync the weapons? Do you have any evidence that it can happen?
I'm not positive about this but didn't parries use to unsync weapons by causing the parried weapon to swing faster on the next strike?
You have an odd number flurry charges. If you don't crit, you fall out of sync in 3 white hits. It's actually not flurry causing the unsync, but the flurry falling off.
I'm not positive about this but didn't parries use to unsync weapons by causing the parried weapon to swing faster on the next strike?
It was my understanding that the parry haste mechanic was removed as of... 3.0? And I thought it was only an effect boss mobs gained. I couldn't provide a source for this info tho. I'll see what I can dig up.
Edit: From everything I see, it seems the parry haste mechanic is still in-game to the tune of 40% haste until the next melee attack lands. So if you parried a mob, it would seem that would also unsync your weapons.
I'm not positive about this but didn't parries use to unsync weapons by causing the parried weapon to swing faster on the next strike?
Wouldn't that be only if you parried an attack from the boss? If the boss parries your attack, you gain no parry hasting, but if you parry a bosses attack then you should gain parry haste. Whether that effects one or both hands, I am unsure.
My current understanding is that only the MH can parry, thus only the MH would gain parry haste. But I would assume that parrying a boss attack is fairly unlikely unless you luckily parry a hateful or cleave (there are very few abilities out there that are aoe and parry-able). This would therefore be a negligible but possible way to unsync weapons.
Originally Posted by jonnaei
It was my understanding that the parry haste mechanic was removed as of... 3.0? And I thought it was only an effect boss mobs gained. I couldn't provide a source for this info tho. I'll see what I can dig up.
Edit: From everything I see, it seems the parry haste mechanic is still in-game to the tune of 40% haste until the next melee attack lands. So if you parried a mob, it would seem that would also unsync your weapons.
To my knowledge of flurry for both warrior and shaman it works in one of the following ways:
Option 1:
Hit 1 (MH) crits procing flurry, Hit 2 (OH) consumes 1 flurry proc - assume no crit
Hit 3/4 happen simultaneously consuming remaining 2 flurry charges.
Option 2:
Hit 1/2 (MH/OH) hit simultaneously with the OH criting to proc flurry
Hit 3/4 (MH/OH) hit simultaneously consuming 2 flurry charges - assume no crit, 1 charge remaning
Hit 5/6 (MH/OH) hit simulatneously consuming the last flurry charge both weapons remaining hasted since they initiated at the same time and there was no time for the server to differenciate which hand gains the flurry.
Wouldn't that be only if you parried an attack from the boss? If the boss parries your attack, you gain no parry hasting, but if you parry a bosses attack then you should gain parry haste. Whether that effects one or both hands, I am unsure.
Yes, the haste is received by the defender. If you parry an attack, you gain haste. If the boss parries you, he gets the haste.
Originally Posted by Unsu
My current understanding is that only the MH can parry, thus only the MH would gain parry haste. But I would assume that parrying a boss attack is fairly unlikely unless you luckily parry a hateful or cleave (there are very few abilities out there that are aoe and parry-able). This would therefore be a negligible but possible way to unsync weapons.
All melee attacks can trigger a parry. Why would that exclude off-hand hits? It doesn't.
And while parrying a boss requires a situation which no melee dps is ever in ideally, it does happen on movement fights and it can unsync weapons.
Originally Posted by Unsu
Option 2:
Hit 1/2 (MH/OH) hit simultaneously with the OH criting to proc flurry
Hit 3/4 (MH/OH) hit simultaneously consuming 2 flurry charges - assume no crit, 1 charge remaning
Hit 5/6 (MH/OH) hit simulatneously consuming the last flurry charge both weapons remaining hasted since they initiated at the same time and there was no time for the server to differenciate which hand gains the flurry.
Why would you use 2 charges of flurry for the first set of MH/OH attacks but then 1 charge of flurry gives you 2 hasted weapon attacks? No. It doesn't work like that.
You are making up examples which contradict explicitly stated game mechanics with no support but hypotheticals of your own creation.
All melee attacks can trigger a parry. Why would that exclude off-hand hits? It doesn't.
I was referring to the shaman parrying with their offhand and thereby receiving the parry haste buff to that hand. I am unsure of this possiblity, however, I was under the impression only the shaman's MH could parry.
Originally Posted by jonnaei
And while parrying a boss requires a situation which no melee dps is ever in ideally, it does happen on movement fights and it can unsync weapons.
Agreed.
Originally Posted by jonnaei
Why would you use 2 charges of flurry for the first set of MH/OH attacks but then 1 charge of flurry gives you 2 hasted weapon attacks? No. It doesn't work like that.
You are making up examples which contradict explicitly stated game mechanics with no support but hypotheticals of your own creation.
Each swing. Mainhand swing = 1. Offhand swing = 2. Mainhand swing = 3. 2nd offhand swing without a refresh of flurry means an unhasted swing.
This was the only reason I could see that sync'd weapons would give you the drastic increase in dps that I've been observing in the sim.
More importantly, what would be the best way to test my hypothetical situations -- such that I may present empirical data as opposed to conjecture from warrior theorycrafting? Would the combatlog timestamps be the best way to show how the flurry mechanic actually works (I understand it is supposed to hasten 3 swings alone, but I've not seen a post that states that it actually does that)? Or is the timestamping from the combatlog too unreliable? I'd love to test this, but I'm afraid I haven't a solid way of doing it. Any suggestions on how to best test this and I'll run the data and post it up as it may help refine the simulator and weapon choices.
Why would you use 2 charges of flurry for the first set of MH/OH attacks but then 1 charge of flurry gives you 2 hasted weapon attacks? No. It doesn't work like that.
You are making up examples which contradict explicitly stated game mechanics with no support but hypotheticals of your own creation.
Each swing. Mainhand swing = 1. Offhand swing = 2. Mainhand swing = 3. 2nd offhand swing without a refresh of flurry means an unhasted swing.
Here's a combatlog from the game. not a hypothetical:
12/14 13:41:10.644 SPELL_AURA_REFRESH,nil,0x80000000,"Tramana",0x511,16280,"Flurry",0x1,BUFF
12/14 13:41:12.165 SWING_DAMAGE,"Tramana",0x511,"Grandmaster's Training Dummy",0x10a28,221,220,1,0,0,0,nil,nil,nil
12/14 13:41:12.165 SWING_DAMAGE,"Tramana",0x511,"Grandmaster's Training Dummy",0x10a28,448,447,1,0,0,0,nil,nil,nil
12/14 13:41:14.368 SWING_DAMAGE,"Tramana",0x511,"Grandmaster's Training Dummy",0x10a28,453,452,1,0,0,0,nil,nil,nil
12/14 13:41:14.368 SWING_DAMAGE,"Tramana",0x511,"Grandmaster's Training Dummy",0x10a28,464,463,1,0,0,0,1,nil,nil (crit)
12/14 13:41:16.367 SWING_MISSED,"Tramana",0x511,"Grandmaster's Training Dummy",0x10a28,MISS
12/14 13:41:16.367 SWING_DAMAGE,"Tramana",0x511,"Grandmaster's Training Dummy",0x10a28,462,461,1,0,0,0,nil,nil,nil
12/14 13:41:18.201 SWING_DAMAGE,"Tramana",0x511,"Grandmaster's Training Dummy",0x10a28,465,464,1,0,0,0,nil,nil,nil
12/14 13:41:18.201 SWING_MISSED,"Tramana",0x511,"Grandmaster's Training Dummy",0x10a28,DODGE
12/14 13:41:20.400 SPELL_AURA_REMOVED,"Tramana",0x511,"Tramana",0x511,16280,"Flurry",0x1,BUFF
Several places where the swings should fall out of sync by your reasoning, but they don't. It behaves like a haste buff, not like 3 individual hasted swings.
I'd be happy to be proven wrong. I just haven't seen a combatlog that supports your view.
I really do wish someone could definitively settle this. I personally would find it more significant than figuring out the windfury ICD that is going on in the other thread. Findings on this could determine if having matched weapon speeds is practically a requirement.
Originally Posted by Apate
Zyla, International Man of a Certain Standard.
Originally Posted by Wraithlin
What have you brought to this discussion? The usual vacuous and contentless tripe that you contribute to these forums - no more and no less.
Here's a combatlog from the game. not a hypothetical:
12/14 13:41:10.644 SPELL_AURA_REFRESH,nil,0x80000000,"Tramana",0x511,16280,"Flurry",0x1,BUFF
12/14 13:41:12.165 SWING_DAMAGE,"Tramana",0x511,"Grandmaster's Training Dummy",0x10a28,221,220,1,0,0,0,nil,nil,nil
12/14 13:41:12.165 SWING_DAMAGE,"Tramana",0x511,"Grandmaster's Training Dummy",0x10a28,448,447,1,0,0,0,nil,nil,nil
12/14 13:41:14.368 SWING_DAMAGE,"Tramana",0x511,"Grandmaster's Training Dummy",0x10a28,453,452,1,0,0,0,nil,nil,nil
12/14 13:41:14.368 SWING_DAMAGE,"Tramana",0x511,"Grandmaster's Training Dummy",0x10a28,464,463,1,0,0,0,1,nil,nil (crit)
12/14 13:41:16.367 SWING_MISSED,"Tramana",0x511,"Grandmaster's Training Dummy",0x10a28,MISS
12/14 13:41:16.367 SWING_DAMAGE,"Tramana",0x511,"Grandmaster's Training Dummy",0x10a28,462,461,1,0,0,0,nil,nil,nil
12/14 13:41:18.201 SWING_DAMAGE,"Tramana",0x511,"Grandmaster's Training Dummy",0x10a28,465,464,1,0,0,0,nil,nil,nil
12/14 13:41:18.201 SWING_MISSED,"Tramana",0x511,"Grandmaster's Training Dummy",0x10a28,DODGE
12/14 13:41:20.400 SPELL_AURA_REMOVED,"Tramana",0x511,"Tramana",0x511,16280,"Flurry",0x1,BUFF
Several places where the swings should fall out of sync by your reasoning, but they don't. It behaves like a haste buff, not like 3 individual hasted swings.
I'd be happy to be proven wrong. I just haven't seen a combatlog that supports your view.
That's surpising to me. By the tooltip of flurry, I would think each charge for a "swing" refers to the swing of a specific weapon. I wonder if flurry applies one charge to all attacks made in a specific moment... That is, un-synced hits will each consume a charge but synced hits do not consume charges for each weapon hit. If that is the case, I would see the benefit of syncing weapons. You would have a lower rate of consumption of flurry charges and have a higher uptime.
I am at work, so I can't sort through my logs. Could anyone do some testing and look for unsynced weapons to see if un-synced hits consume flurry on each weapon hit? Just use 2 weapons of different speeds and take gear off to low levels of crit so we can see flurry drop off in 3 successive charges.
Also, with this information, I now see where it would be very difficult to un-sync weapons. I use /startattack in my SS macro before boss pulls and I can't think of anything beyond the mechanic I was discussing with flurry (which appears to have been wrong) that would put weapons out of sync.
Zyla it really doesn't matter much right now whether the matched weapons are giving more dps or not is working in game since the Sim works as if matched weapons do give a dps increase yet Webbed Death is clearly the superior offhand choice according to my sim runs even with matched weapons giving higher flurry uptime.
This may come into play more with ulduar if there are better offhand options but when the best option for matched speed is a half a tier behind the other options (and the PvP versions have awful stat breakdowns) it really doesn't matter much.
The only place it comes into play with now is if you were to use FT/FT on 2x Webbed Death but the new Windfury glyph should also make that a dps loss as well.
Keep in mind that, as always the weapon choices will vary with your gear, buffs, situations, etc. However, post #61 defined a standard gear set for which the set of OH's posted by the OP were tested. The conclusion of that was that webbed death comes out on top with that gear set. I'm sure there will be some retesting once the new WF glyph is added to the sim, however, it should not change the ranking of any OH weapon tested under the WF/FT convention.
I would have to disagree on that cause Webbed Death, Murder, and Sinister's Revenge come out higher then most slower weapons atm.
I would bet money that with your gear Angry dread will sim as BiS. As stated several times before, your gear will determine if a fast or slow OH is best. This is my concern with this thread. Currently there is no way you can say that one OH is BiS for everyone.
01/17/09, 10:13 PM
Similar Threads
