[Enhancement] OH Weapon Choices - Page 6

Rouncer · 02/20/09, 9:13 PM

Originally Posted by Zayrinoke

I too decided to take a stab at this. I upgraded my pants from Herois to Valorous yesterday but otherwise my gear is the same as our 25 man naxx clear yesterday. I had 6100 DPS on Patchwerk, and 11300 DPS on Thaddius. This is with Cudgel of Saronite Justice in the mainhand, which simmed as better with 63 SP than Berserking.

mind posting a WWS?

Zayrinoke · 02/20/09, 9:36 PM

Originally Posted by Rounced

mind posting a WWS?

I have the log, but WWS site i acting up for me, I trimmed it to just the patchwerk portion (still have the whole thing of course) and its giving me an error when it tries to upload, the client is successful and then the WWS page informs me that there was an error while loading. I can keep trying, and in the meantime I can send you the file itself if you like.

Edit: Got the Patchwerk file:
Wow Web Stats

I have no idea whats with the ghost combatants at the bottom. Probably why it didnt wanna upload originally. Go figure it acts up on my best kill, heh. But, it doesnt seem to have affected anyones numbers that I can see.

HappyDude · 02/20/09, 9:47 PM

Your gear set is interesting, you've got a massive amount of haste and make up for the lost hit using both the caster and melee hit trinkets.

By using the cudgel you're matching weapon speeds with the offhand, which has been argued creates a significant DPS increase by getting an additional hasted swing due to interaction with flurry mechanics.

All this additional haste helps to abuse the broken flametongue coefficient.

This suggests that the BiS set for ft/ft could differ significantly (beyond just the weapon choices) from the wf/ft one.

Zayrinoke · 02/20/09, 10:05 PM

Just want to mention that Torch of Holy fire, with my current gear, is still simming as about 150 DPS better than the Cudgel.

Got the Thaddius fight to upload now.

Wow Web Stats

Rouncer · 02/20/09, 11:36 PM

Zay, did you mix ranks of Flametongue or imbue both weapons with rank 10?

Zayrinoke · 02/20/09, 11:44 PM

Originally Posted by Rounced

Zay, did you mix ranks of Flametongue or imbue both weapons with rank 10?

I went rank 9/rank 10. I had 10 on MH for Patch and 9 on Offhand, but for all other fights it was 9 on main and 10 on off. Since both weapons are 1.4 I don't think it made any difference.

Want to add, Thunder Capacitor is simming as a potentially major upgrade, I havent done all the math yet so I'll have to work out the exact amount.

Edit2: Accounting for having to regem for hit due to losing Grim Toll, Thunder Capacitor is simming as an upgrade of 140DPS. Takes me from 6147.04 to 6289.28.

Rouncer · 02/21/09, 12:04 AM

Rank 10 on offhand should be a bit more dps due to lava lash making the offhand hit more often.

I wonder how much dps you would get out of the engineering glove enchant. It's the equivalent of a static 1.73% haste if used on every cooldown.

Zayrinoke · 02/21/09, 12:05 AM

Originally Posted by Rounced

Rank 10 on offhand should be a bit more dps due to lava lash making the offhand hit more often.

I wonder how much dps you would get out of the engineering glove enchant. It's the equivalent of a static 1.73% haste if used on every cooldown.

Doubt itd be enough to outweigh BS/JC.

Dragon-CR · 02/21/09, 7:22 AM

Originally Posted by Zayrinoke

Doubt itd be enough to outweigh BS/JC.

Considering it's "on use" burst haste of about 10% you might be surprised. Item point value wise it's now on equal footing with every other profession enchant out there (well, not including tailoring, I think the cloak enchants are still a bit gimped). It's always going to be worth slightly more than 1.7% unless combat just so happens to end on an exact multiplier of 60 seconds after you first used it, assuming use every time CD is up (for example if combat just so happens to end after 2:10 then it's equiv haste is almost 2.4%). Can also be timed to go with trinkets, pots, or heroism/bloodlust for an even bigger burst. Naturally depends on how valuable haste is for your build but a FT/FT build should value it very high after hit/exp cap.

Sprinter · 02/21/09, 7:55 AM

6.1k DPS is very nice - but its not like you cant achieve that with WF/FT.

This weeks Wow Web Stats
Even higher dps in a longer fight.
Gear Snapshot

Unsu · 02/21/09, 8:59 AM

Originally Posted by Sprinter

6.1k DPS is very nice - but its not like you cant achieve that with WF/FT.

This weeks Wow Web Stats
Even higher dps in a longer fight.
Gear Snapshot

You did you windfury. From your WWS, "Angriff des Windzorns" deals 14%, 19hits, of the damage on patchwerk. I'm confused, please clarify.

*Angriff des Windzorns = Windfury weapon.

Zayrinoke · 02/21/09, 12:10 PM

You also had two Bloodlusts somehow.

Lumb · 02/21/09, 2:15 PM

I think he's just pointing out that you don't have to be using FT/FT to match Zay's dps.

• Aeolian · 02/21/09, 2:19 PM

Originally Posted by Zayrinoke

You also had two Bloodlusts somehow.

Two of the Shamans may have blown Heroism at roughly the same time, registering both in the Combat Log.

1st Bloodlust at 19:59:13.926
2nd Bloodlust at 19.59.14.135

Edit: If you want to look at the WWS parse, you are looking for this line "Sprinter gains Kampfrausch."

Zayrinoke · 02/21/09, 2:47 PM

Originally Posted by Aeolian

Two of the Shamans may have blown Heroism at roughly the same time, registering both in the Combat Log.

1st Bloodlust at 19:59:13.926
2nd Bloodlust at 19.59.14.135

Edit: If you want to look at the WWS parse, you are looking for this line "Sprinter gains Kampfrausch."

Makes sense.

As for matching 6100, no you dont need FT/FT. You do ned FT/FT to do it with gear like mine though, which is less than ideal.

Siggidzweie · 02/21/09, 4:15 PM

Hi,

I'm just a replacement-enhancement-shaman, doin' this job, when our main-enhancer is not available, but still ... I enjoy doing this job and my dps is quiet ok. Of course my gear is still incomplete and not as well balanced as yours is .... but still ... I can't believe, that Blizzard wants us to take this way as a kind of melee-caster or whatever. Imo the disigner will take a look on that absurd ft/ft-6k+-dps-variant using a rare 60dps-caster-mainhand and fix/change those abilities soon, that allow us doing that. Some how I hope so, cause it's just laughable.

So finally ... I think Sprinters conservative way should be the right one - well gear combined with support and skill, should bring out good dps.

Dragon-CR · 02/21/09, 4:53 PM

Actually I'm fairly sure the designer goal WAS some sort of melee/spell caster hybrid considering the changes in 3.0. The issue with FT/FT is it pushes us too far out of balance toward the caster side. If the same were happening with WF to where WF/WF was prefered again I think they'd end up changing that as well. When geared as they seem to have intended with high DPS melee weapons and gear using WF/FT we're pretty evenly split on the damage that comes from either form.

I'm sure it's an interesting design challenge from their perspective to balance a class like that while preventing either damage form from ending up too dominant to where you'd stack for just melee or just spell.

Broshious · 02/21/09, 6:44 PM

Is it just me or is this a case of "The sky is falling" when in reality FT/FT and WF/FT are so close that it in fact is opening up NEW options for gear choices for Enhancement shamans. I just cannot imagine why people wouldn't want to be able to play either FT/FT or WF/FT, but instead I see people crying that it must be changed NOW because in a simulator FT/FT shows as being SLIGHTLY higher than WF/FT.

Deathicle · 02/21/09, 7:06 PM

Originally Posted by Broshious

Is it just me or is this a case of "The sky is falling" when in reality FT/FT and WF/FT are so close that it in fact is opening up NEW options for gear choices for Enhancement shamans. I just cannot imagine why people wouldn't want to be able to play either FT/FT or WF/FT, but instead I see people crying that it must be changed NOW because in a simulator FT/FT shows as being SLIGHTLY higher than WF/FT.

Hothgor made a similar argument on the forums regarding the FT/FT vs WF/FT. If the top in damage is roughly equal, with the values varying depending on your gear set up, why the big fuss? I agree with him that it seems like you guys are very well tuned and should be enjoying the weapon potential you have!

Dragon-CR · 02/21/09, 7:06 PM

The problem comes from the fact that we're starting to see "real world" evidence from actual fights that FT is scaling better not only in the sim but also in game. GC stated a while back that they have target values of DPS for different classes for different fights. If our target values are made on the assumption by designers that we'll be using melee armor with melee enchants with WF/FT and we start figuring out that by going for more caster oriented gear and enchants that we can do more DPS with FT/FT build than their intended build of WF/FT, well, bliz has a long proud history of correcting those kinds of oversights.

NEW options for gear choice are only good if they're INTENDED options for gear choice by the designer. Finding unintended yet highly viable alternates to their grand design pretty much always ends in nerfage. I have a sinking feeling we're dangerously close to getting a little "love tap" from the nerf bat as is.

While the sky isn't falling it is wobbling a bit and it would do us (the enh shammy community) to draw attention to this potential issue now while it IS still quite close instead of waiting til FT/FT is the dominant build and the afore mentioned love tap becomes a two handed swing out of the park.

Deathicle · 02/21/09, 7:19 PM

Originally Posted by Dragon-CR

The problem comes from the fact that we're starting to see "real world" evidence from actual fights that FT is scaling better not only in the sim but also in game. GC stated a while back that they have target values of DPS for different classes for different fights. If our target values are made on the assumption by designers that we'll be using melee armor with melee enchants with WF/FT and we start figuring out that by going for more caster oriented gear and enchants that we can do more DPS with FT/FT build than their intended build of WF/FT, well, bliz has a long proud history of correcting those kinds of oversights.

NEW options for gear choice are only good if they're INTENDED options for gear choice by the designer. Finding unintended yet highly viable alternates to their grand design pretty much always ends in nerfage. I have a sinking feeling we're dangerously close to getting a little "love tap" from the nerf bat as is.

While the sky isn't falling it is wobbling a bit and it would do us (the enh shammy community) to draw attention to this potential issue now while it IS still quite close instead of waiting til FT/FT is the dominant build and the afore mentioned love tap becomes a two handed swing out of the park.

How do you know what is intended? Seems to me that if they made Enhancement shamans a melee/caster hybrid, you should expect interesting gear choices such as this.

Dragon-CR · 02/21/09, 7:50 PM

I think it's a fairly safe assumption to say they intended the melee focused branch of the shaman tree to find things like the highest DPS weapon in the game their BiS MH, and that they didn't intend the 99dps caster weapon with MP5 on it to be the most ideal melee weapon for any class. You can believe that maybe, just maybe they did that as a joke or to reward those who "think outside the box", but that's not really a reasonable explanation.

A much more reasonable explanation is that FT is scaling better than they expected with certain, non standard gear builds.

Scaling better than they expected has more often than not lead to nerfs. Ask the BM hunters about that one.

Anyway this is the BiS OH thread and regardless of WF/FT vs FT/FT, it's [Webbed Death]

Rouncer · 02/21/09, 8:31 PM

Originally Posted by Deathicle

How do you know what is intended? Seems to me that if they made Enhancement shamans a melee/caster hybrid, you should expect interesting gear choices such as this.

This so reminds me of my time as a mage. I was one of those arguing that it could be an intended mechanic when they turned Arcane Mages into machine guns and see where it went from there.

Dragon has this one on the nose. The real issue is this, we have no confirmation from Blizzard that this is intended. If Blizzard comes out tomorrow and says, "oh this is great we really like the whole Flame Knives thing" then I will try to get a ToHF without a shred of remorse but without that confirmation I don't think I could face my friends again if I took one and then ended up planting it in the bank.

Which means we are stuck right now knowing that there is a better option but really not sure if we should take it since we have no confirmation, which is not really a nice place to be (and then there is the fact that I, personally, think the whole Flame Knives thing is retarded and an incredibly boring style of play and I post too much).

Zayrinoke · 02/21/09, 11:41 PM

At the moment I'm working on seeing what the highest results I can pull form the sim are. So far my highest is 6719.71. This is with Thunder Capacitor and Illustration as the trinkets, and with Accuracy chanted on both weapons to allow me to gear for tons of haste. Combat length set at 3 mins and 0 ms. Taking it up to 150 ms loses me like 90 DPS.

Here is the config:

simulation_time                 1000
simulation_time_combatlog       30
combat_length                   3
report_count                    80
threads                         2
min_lag                         0
max_lag                         0
simulate_mana                   0

ep_precision                    2
ep_base_stat                    ap
ep_ap                           40
ep_crit_rating                  20
ep_hit_rating                   10
ep_expertise                    1
ep_haste_rating                 20
ep_armor_penetration_rating     20
ep_spellpower                   24
ep_dps                          7.5
ep_mana                         200
ep_spirit                       100
ep_mp5                          20

mh_auto_attack                  1
oh_auto_attack                  1
wait_ss_with_wf_cd              0.00
cast_ll_only_if_wf_on_cd        0
bloodlust_casters               1
sync_bloodlust_with_trinkets    0
cast_lvb_only_if_ed_left        15.0
cast_lvb_only_if_fsdots_left    4
cast_lvb_only_if_fs_active      1
cast_fs_only_if_dots_left       0
cast_ls_only_if_charges_left    1
cast_sr_only_if_mana_left       1000
use_mana_potion_if_mana_left    3000

rotation_priority_count         9
rotation_priority1              MT
rotation_priority2              MW5_LB
rotation_priority3              ES_SS
rotation_priority4              MW4_LB
rotation_priority5              SS
rotation_priority6              ES
rotation_priority7              LL
rotation_priority8              LS
rotation_priority9              SR

miss                            9.0
dodge                           6.5
glancing                        25.0
armor                           13083
spell_miss                      17.0
nature_resistance               0
fire_resistance                 0
frost_resistance                0
arcane_resistance               0
shadow_resistance               0

armor_debuff_major              3925/3925
armor_debuff_minor              1260/1260
physical_vulnerability_debuff   2.0/2.0
melee_haste_buff                20.0/20.0
melee_crit_chance_buff          5.0/5.0
attack_power_buff_flat          688/688
attack_power_buff_multiplier    100/100
spell_haste_buff                5.0/5.0
spell_crit_chance_buff          5.0/5.0
spell_crit_chance_debuff        10.0/10.0
spell_damage_debuff             10.0/10.0
spellpower_buff                 280/280
spell_hit_chance_debuff         3.0/3.0
haste_buff                      3.0/3.0
percentage_damage_increase      3.0/3.0
crit_chance_debuff              3.0/3.0
stat_multiplier                 10.0/10.0
stat_add_buff                   52/52
agi_and_strength_buff           178/178
intellect_buff                  60/60

replenishment                   1
water_shield                    0
mana_spring_totem               1
blessing_of_wisdom              1
judgement_of_wisdom             1

flask_elixir                    flask_of_the_frost_wyrm
guardian_elixir                 -
potion                          potion_of_speed
food                            fish_feast
misc_item                       -

###############################################################################
### Everything in the section below can be replaced by information obtained ###
### from your paper doll stats or exported by the ShockAndAwe addon         ###
###############################################################################

race                            orc
mh_speed                        1.8
oh_speed                        1.4
mh_dps                          98.9
oh_dps                          156.4
mh_crit                         28.46
oh_crit                         28.46
mh_hit                          11.25
oh_hit                          11.25
mh_expertise_rating             214
oh_expertise_rating             214
ap                              3272
haste                           11.22
armor_penetration               0
str                             133
agi                             802
int                             515
spi                             156
spellpower                      1666
spell_crit                      27.74
spell_hit                       14.06
max_mana                        15456
mp5                             15

mh_imbue                        flametongue
oh_imbue                        flametongue

mh_enchant                      -
oh_enchant                      -

mh_weapon                       -
oh_weapon                       -

trinket1                        illustration_of_the_dragon_soul
trinket2                        thunder_capacitor

totem                           totem_of_dueling

set_bonus                       naxx_melee_4

metagem                         chaotic_skyflare_diamond

glyph_major1                    flametongue_weapon
glyph_major2                    lightning_shield
glyph_major3                    stormstrike

glyph_minor1                    -
glyph_minor2                    -
glyph_minor3                    -

ancestral_knowledge             5/5
improved_shields                3/3
mental_dexterity                3/3
shamanistic_focus               0/1
flurry                          5/5
elemental_weapons               3/3
unleashed_rage                  0/5
weapon_mastery                  3/3
dual_wield_specialization       3/3
mental_quickness                3/3
improved_stormstrike            2/2
static_shock                    3/3
maelstrom_weapon                5/5

convection                      0/5
concussion                      5/5
call_of_flame                   3/3
elemental_devastation           3/3
reverberation                   4/5
elemental_focus                 0/1
elemental_fury                  5/5
call_of_thunder                 0/1
unrelenting_storm               0/3
elemental_precision             0/3
lightning_mastery               0/5
elemental_oath                  0/2
lightning_overload              0/5
lava_flows                      0/3
storm_earth_and_fire            0/3
shamanism                       0/5

This build requires another shaman to have improved totems, but restos or another enhance can cover that. Might have to beg the resto to spec for it, but it wont net them much loss at all.

Edit: Here is the gearset

chardev.org - a World of Warcraft Character Planner - x

Skiace · 02/22/09, 1:32 AM

Originally Posted by Broshious

Is it just me or is this a case of "The sky is falling" when in reality FT/FT and WF/FT are so close that it in fact is opening up NEW options for gear choices for Enhancement shamans. I just cannot imagine why people wouldn't want to be able to play either FT/FT or WF/FT, but instead I see people crying that it must be changed NOW because in a simulator FT/FT shows as being SLIGHTLY higher than WF/FT.

This is a short-sighted view. Yes you are correct that at current end-game gear levels, the two setups are roughly equal. However it is already clear that FT/FT scales better, and thus pushing into Ulduar and beyond it will begin to pull ahead, eventually supplanting WF completely if none of the mechanics are changed.