MythrilShotgun

Spent over an hour last night theorycrafting this up with our local resto shaman, and today in raid, he smashed numbers.

I do not currently have WWS reports, (maybe Tomorrow). But from what i've seen, he had the most effective healing, and overheal, among us (I'm a Priest btw). The fight was Sarth 25 3d attempts, 2d clear (had to kill one) There is usually a lot of damage, and a fairly compact area to fight in. I'd say that this spec is DEFINATELY viable, ESPECIALLY for a fight like Sarth. He was pumping so so so much out that it was ridiculous. In a fight that is THE hardest encounter atm, this spec may definately gain some popularity, plus its fun from what I hear. Not saying it'll be best for EVERY fight, but enough to make it viable for 25 mans, maybe not so much for 10, but as was pointed out, respecs are cheap now, I see it getting even more uber once CoH and Wild Growth get the nerf, this spec gives back to shamans their cornerstone imo of heals, and that's the massive aoe heals. GJ Mr. OP on coming across this, once i get ahold of WWS, i will Edit them in (assuming the shaman himself doesn't beat me to it.)

Edit: I think shaman beat me to it.

 

Balean

Its not an option between DW EL spec an RT spec only: DW EL spec = no ES, no TW and no RT, thats a different story.
The use of the DW EL spec is very very limited, especially pre 3.08 due to CoH and WG. But even then the problem remains, as some stated already here: do I want to be a flexible healer usefull for every situation or very one sided, but there really good, what always requires other ppl to fill the gaps I leave ( and these you got to have, beside the possible lack of fun)? the DW EL spec might only pay out in extrem AoE fights like Sarth, but in more than one boss raids that spec looses its viability without the dual-spec, which is not going to be introduced in 3.08, so dont expect it before March.
Beside that: for instances or 10 mans this spec isnt of any reall use anyway, so it´s limited to 25 mans.

To the theory: its to theoretical. You cannot assume all El procs to heal 100% as you cannopt expect no overhealing or CH jumops not to happen. Obviously a Theorycraft requires that as well, but you re missing the practical part as Darkhorse already said.

And about the specs: spec 1: why takie Imp Shields if you don´t have imp WS, n and no ES? the use for WS can only proc of being hit, which is only of use soloing and the ES bonus doent happen at all. theres better use than that having Im WF Totem and Shamanistic Focus.

 

Durnitol

The question isn't whether it's viable or not, it's whether it has enough value over a "normal" spec to be worth it.

I have healed Sarth 2d with 5 total healers. As the sole resto shaman and specced normally, I crushed the healing meters to the point where I was at 30% of all effective heals, and the next highest was 20%. I didn't have 4pc T7, I didn't have EL glyph, and the other healers in the raid (including 1 CoH priest) were not slacking. I healed something like 500k more than the next guy. I believe I was third in total overheals, with the lowest overheal ratio. (for you naysayers, I am rarely #1 effective healer with our guild. I am however often top 3. I have never seen a wider gap than the fight I described above).

The point is, the effectiveness you get without DW using the same playstyle is close enough to consider the DW resto spec unnecessary. Your heal output doesn't increase enough to lose Earth shield, riptide, and tidal waves. Besides all that, I would sooner respec or reroll than be a one-button wonder Chain Heal robot. The 3.0 made Resto shaman healing FUN, challenging, and inspired some debate and creativity.

 

• locriani

Like stated previously in the original post and elsewhere, the only determination to be made is if DW CH offers enough of a benefit to CH for a shaman to spec into it. Unfortunately, no one has offered enough solid DATA to suggest one or the other - only rough estimates pulled out of a random orifice. I'm perfectly willing to debate the viability of a DW spec when there is enough data to make informed and intelligent arguments. In fact, it's not a spec I'm particularly a fan of myself (I tend to be the healer who falls asleep when it gets too boring), but if it offers enough of an advantage to be viable - I'll take it.

Balean - Imp Shields is taken because the assumption is that any raid-damage heavy encounter where you would want to DW CH would also proc your shield return at a decent enough rate. Also, the benefits of Imp WF / Shamanistic Focus are usually unnecessary in most 25 man settings; however, this can vary based on your class composition.

[edit] I've been provided with a hefty (~10!) number of WWS logs in the last 30 minutes. Once I get a chance, I'll parse these to get some meaningful and real world numbers. Of course, any additional logs are still wanted.

 

MatsT

It's quite easy to calculate a maximum percentage of healing increase for your chain heals based on the extra stats you get. This increase will only be 5-7%. You will lose around 7-12% of your healing done by losing the earth shield alone. Add the fact that if you are moving at all or not being able to jump your chain heals properly, you will lose a lot more. As i said earlier the increase to Chain Heal is not nearly enough to be worth it. If the specc would ever be viable, it would be in a fight where your overhealing from Earthliving weapon is significantly less than normal. In that scenario, it might be an option, but otherwise not.

 

Broshious

This is a bit OT, but I've always considered earthliving to be well...rather lackluster. I've never been a big fan of 3 second hots, and this one doesn't even tick for much. My proposal would be to make it tick each second(bring the total healing down if necessary). My reasoning is that these hots only occur after a heal has landed, now if a heal has landed that means you saw someone needed healing and cast a heal, PROBABLY other healers may be doing this as well so the target will be topped off usually quite quickly after your heal making the EL hot mostly overheal. If it healed quickly it'd be like a little extra bonus to your heals instead. Also EL often refreshes itself reducing its effectiveness.

OTOH this does kinda relate to this as I believe that change would benefit a DW CH spec.

 

fukz

i've already provided a 25man log at 01/16/09, 9:32 AM

 

Krypt0s

Another WWS to pick through. Joga was DW specced for this clear. On Sapphiron, we did the 100 Club achievement, so raid damage was especially heavy. EL ended up being 14-18% of his total healing on those.

 

Airraid

I ran DW Chain heal last night, here's the WWS from the full Naxx clear: http://wowwebstats.com/lbg5kzlqw4gv1

For statistical purposes, I was generally running the following (raid buffed):

Spellpower: 2700
Haste: 525
Crit: 23%

My armory is here, still specced and geared from last night: The World of Warcraft Armory

This spec absolutely bled mana, so for a large portion of the night I wore [Skyshatter Boots] and [Skyshatter Bracers] for the 2 set bonus.

Trinket wise I used [Figurine - Sapphire Owl] and [Spark of Life] for most of the night, subbing in [Embrace of the Spider] on shorter fights.

As you can see from the parse, I did NOTHING but press chain heal all night (bar the odd emergency heal or two). The reason for this was so that I could get the best possible data from each encounter. Some fights I had bad healing assignments (Patchwerk), others I had good, so take from the data what you can.

Now, time for my thoughts. Despite how good this spec may or may not be, in my opinion this is an absolutely horrid spec to play. It's akin to being a BM hunter - one button spam all night. Yes I'm aware that's how we healed pre-bc but given the amount of tools at our disposal now I think this spec is virtually sacrilege and I could not imagine playing that way again, I like my new toys too much.

One other thing of note: I did not see earthliving on more than three targets at the one time the whole night.

 

yazakib

Hi there,

So I ran this as an offspec yesterday when our normal resto shaman didn't show up. Overall on all bosses my overheal wasn't horrible, Earthliving was dotting on a maximum of 5 people ( I was seeing through MIKSBT 1 tick of ELW and then a 4hit tick directly following). Wow Web Stats <<< our WWS from last night. I'm under our main raid healers, but they are extremely geared in comparison to me, I slapped together some healing gear last night out of randomness that I had in my bag.

Also, I noticed that w/ the CH spamming, the JC trinket is extremely useful for helping w/ going OOM. I didn't have to pot at all and spent very little time OOM last night. Hope this helps drop some insite on things.

The World of Warcraft Armory is my armory, and yes my shoulders and legs are different sets... I didn't do it on purpose.

 

Novakki

Ninarz pretty much stated the things i felt in naxx while in dw ch specced.
-it was boring
-just too slow, rt/tw + lhw/hw is superb
-not enough gain for what you lose
-really, really boring


Usually i am really into theorycrafting, even if it seems impossible,
but this time.. there is zero points of fun and viability involved.

 

Balean

Looking at the last 3 provided wwS datas, and yes without doing math calcualtions on it, I know, I only see a average overheal and an increased %healed by EL. To be fair, ES can provid more healing done and Riptide and TW on top it gets a lot more. I looked into the Boss fihghts only. I ve seen the gap to the trash fights as well, but thtas not interesting, cause we do not spec for trash.

 

fukz

another wws report
Wow Web Stats

Raidstats: 2,650 +heal
523 haste

 

Butterfayce

Normally an enhancement shaman but been filling in. This thread caught my attention and I love DW CH. Character is Shanulu of Kilrogg

Not a WWS but I hope this helps:

Saph 25

0. Total 6908359 (20456.2 100%)
1. Eattherich 1430488 (3935.9, 20.7%)
2. Guy 1263765 (3417.0, 18.2%)
3. Garyson 1149720 (3711.3, 16.6%)
4. Shanulu 961510 (2541.2, 13.9%)
5. Ariacaliburn 952993 (3002.6, 13.7%)


Recount - Shanulu's Effective Healing
1. Chain Heal 296 750136 (78%)
2. Earthliving 369 204712 (21%)
3. Lesser Healing Wave 3 6662 (1%)

My stats:
2036 Healing
23.53 Crit
482 Haste

Sidenote: I'm at the bottom of the overhealing meter @168000 points.

 

not-prime

gas

 

• locriani

After a brief hiatus from these forums, I'm back with some numbers (finally)!

Many thanks to those who provided WWS for me to peruse.

This spec increases the raw healing of your chain heal by approximately 12%, and approximately 16% when counting EL procs (depending on gear level). That's an average increase of ~500 healing per CH hit (up to 2k per CH), with an added bonus of ~ 300 healing per CH hit from EL Weapon procs (~550 per CH).

I believe the loss of ES is the single largest factor that reduces the viability of this spec. However, if you have another (or multiple) shaman who can provide ES for the tank(s) on an encounter, this may be less of a problem.

The provided WWS show raid damage heavy encounters really allow this spec to shine (Sapphiron specifically comes to mind). One such provided report shows ~22% of healing done by EL (5% of total raid healing), or nearly 320,000 healing.

Patchwerk fights from provided WWS vary greatly - EL accounts for 4% to 16% of healing done, in the spread of WWS reports I've recieved (40,000 low, 201,000 high). However, the increased power on CH is definitely welcome for this fight, when ES is available from another shaman.

 

Pond

Correct me if I'm wrong but is there a number missing between the Chain heal and the Earthliving line.


For people that have run this spec I've heard it bleeds mana badly, anyone have any input on this, due to the fact that the main reason I switched to LHW/RT spam on my shammy is because of the fact that you never go oom. I'm looking and seeing horrible scaling with this spec due to the fact that your OH will never be upgraded. Does anyone have data for the healing coefficient of Earthliving and how it scales when compared to Earthshield?

 

Kindralas

So many people seem focused on topping Healing meters with the spec, which seems a little bit ludicrous to me. The only reason I use Recount is to keep track of my Overhealing, though being able to see HPS is kind of nice. It kind of implies just how much healing you're doing when you're actually healing. I wouldn't crow about being 100 or even 200 HPS behind, because fights can easily account for that much, but the WWS above appears to show approximately a 1000 HPS difference, which is a huge difference. Add to that the Chain Heal spec overhealing more than a normal spec overall, and you come up with mana problems on top of all of that.

When WotLK came out, I was upset about the move toward using HW and LHW as a base with Chain Heal as flavor. I didn't want to play a Priest/Paladin, and that seemed to be the direction they were moving us. I've been happy with the gameplay since, though I still don't like the change in emphasis. I'm currently hasted enough to do the LHW trick with HW, and it's been a monster for me.

The dual wield Chain Heal spec removes all of that utility for improving Chain Heal. People kind of laugh off Tidal Waves, but I can reliably do 1.2s Healing Waves with it up, and keeping it up isn't a problem. And a 1.2s, 15K crit Healing Wave, with the mana regen and extra healing from Ancestral Awakening, is too good a tool to not have. The improvement to Chain Heal isn't massive (the 500 per-hit somewhat baffles me, considering the reduction per-hit inherent in Chain Heal), while you're giving up tools which make up for the deficiencies in Chain Heal in the situations where Chain Heal isn't called for. Patchwerk comes to mind there.

I have yet to see any convincing evidence that the dual wield spec is a viable alternative to that. There are fights where I Chain Heal almost exclusively, and in those situations, it's highly likely that the dual wield spec is better. But considering that those fights are simply intermingled with a lot of heavy single-target damage fights, I can't see speccing Dual Wield over the course of a full raid.

 

Trogal

This seems to be an interesting theory, and I will definitely try this out as soon as I get my hands on the Kara dagger.

The only thing that raises my eyebrows a bit is the loss of Riptide... though it may not be useful in the big picture when you are raiding 25 mans alongside druids and priests, in fights such as Malygos, the quick reaction ability that Riptide provides could definitely make or break your raid (especially in the cyclone stage).

 

Bomfunk

This spec is so mindnumbingly boring... I tried it for a couple of days, the increase in my healing done was insignificant and it killed any and all fun in raiding for me.

 

Kindralas

Well, I think Riptide's usefulness is largely overstated. If they'd drop the HoT and Chain Heal effect and reduce its mana cost, I would like it a lot more. As it is, I tend to Chain Heal/HW/HW/WS repeat most of the time. Riptide's cost is, I think, a major reason why a lot of Shamans have mana problems. While each individual cast of it isn't that much, over time, if you're more or less spamming it to keep it on cooldown, it can add up to a huge mana drain for not much healing.

The loss of Earth Shield and Tidal Waves are really what hurts the dual wield spec. If they had some quality talents to make up a little for that loss in Enhancement, then the spec becomes more viable, but I think it'll always lag behind a pure Resto build until they make a better offhand to use, whether that be a full-on Spellpower or Haste weapon (unlikely), or some random high crit rating Epic which can outshine the Paper Cutter. But even then, it'd have to be an item more or less tailor-made for this spec alone.

As it is, your only true benefit from the spec is the increased Earthliving procs. Most shields will provide enough caster-oriented stats to equal out the healing bonus from Earthliving and a second weapon enchant. Aegis of Damnation's stats are better in every way to the Paper Cutter, save for the haste rating, of which the difference is only 18, and then on top of that, you're getting a whopping 64 Intellect to counteract the spellpower bonus you'd get from the imbue and enchant.

 

• locriani

For clarification; the benefit to CH is approximately 1k healing on the first hit, 500 healing on second, and etc.

 

Pitbuller

Chain heal coef for initial hit is (2.5/3.5 * 1.88) * (1 + 0.2 + 0.1) = 1.75
You need get 1000 / 1.75 = 571 free spell power to get "1k healing on the first hit".

In your first post you state "Dual Wielding offers up to 121 (184 with enchant) additional SP over the highest SP offhand currently available to shamans"

You can't count earth living proc to avarage healing numbers. If you do then you have to state how many people you heal and calculate avarage uptime for both specs. How to model Blessing of the Eternals? DW spec give much more earth living procs but also it's overwrite old hots and proc when you don't need it to heal. Blessing of Eternal make earth living proc when you need it to proc. If dw spec put talents points to it then it's lose spell power from Nature's Blessing and whole purpose of spec is least questionable then.

Slow, slower, shaman weapon.

 

• locriani

I'll double check the numbers. With my gear, and the only switch being the spec and mentioned offhand, those are the numbers I see, and are very similar to the numbers I've seen in other WWS.

 

Basil2

I did test this spec in real fights (plague and arachne quartals). One run I did in normal spec, then the second in DW spec with no changes in cloth. The raid has five healers, with me with 2300 own and 2600 buffed in normal spec, 550 haste. The results in Recount are:

Normal spec:
22% overal performance
24-25 - performance in a heavy damage fights

DW spec:
24.5% overal performance
28-31 - performance in a heavy damage fights

So I can tell that DW spec is about 15-20% more efficient than normal spec when you need to heal raid much.
I also will try this spec on Maligos this week.