Rouncer

Looking for some help. Everyone knows that the windfury cooldown is 3 seconds the same way that we all knew that Patchwerk's hateful strike was completely determined by who had the most health. Blizzard has stated that there is a cooldown on Windfury but they have never said it is 3 seconds and I have never seen definitive proof from anywhere that it is exactly 3 seconds.

Why does this matter? There is a point where haste starts to have a very detrimental effect on your dps and that is right when you get your weapon speed to half the cooldown duration. But if the cooldown is actually shorter then 3 seconds then that point changes. This also has a large effect on our simulator since without the correct cooldown the Sim is inaccurate.

Here is a combatlog entry from the Sarth3-10man we did over the weekend.

16:35'36.750 Rouncer Windfury Attack hits Tenebron #9 for 1748 Physical.
16:35'36.750 Rouncer Windfury Attack hits Tenebron #9 for 3859 Physical. (Critical)
16:35'39.625 Rouncer Windfury Attack hits Tenebron #9 for 3314 Physical. (Critical)
16:35'39.625 Rouncer Windfury Attack hits Tenebron #9 for 1621 Physical.

That's 2.875 seconds between Windfury Attacks.

This is meant to be a short thread focusing purely on the Windfury cooldown. I'm looking for people to help me accurately determine the real cooldown. Easiest way would seem to 2 very fast weapons both imbued with Windfury and the targeting dummy, add as much haste and haste procs as possible and run a /combatlog. Then go through the log and find the smallest interval between windfury attacks.

Take the smallest interval you can find and copy/paste it into a reply on this thread along with where you did the testing, what speed weapons were used, passive haste and any active haste procs. So the reply should look like this.

Any lag or high latency while testing will invalidate the results.

Only post results if you find an interval below 3 seconds. Feel free to state how much time you spent testing and the smallest interval you personally encountered since that will be useful for comparison data.

 

• Binkenstein

Unfortunately, the timestamps on combatlogs are inaccurate. Pewsey posted a blog entry on it a while ago, and it reared its head again when I was looking at Clearcast uptimes.

The only effective way to look at the cooldown is going to be many hours of dummy testing with various weapon speeds, and calculating the average time between procs.

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Tramana

Wouldn't a more effective approach involve using weapons of different speeds and varying haste to see which swing times can give back to back windfury?

For example if you have 3.05 seconds between swings and see back to back windfury, but 2.95 seconds between swings doesn't, you can conclude that the cooldown is 3 seconds. While the combatlog is pretty inaccurate, the tooltip for weapon speed should give correct time between swings.


A more difficult problem is figuring out what the FT cooldown is...

 

Rouncer

Aren't you guys in Australia and dealing with 300ms latency on good days? Also isn't that blog using the previous combat log system not the current one which seems to include a lot more information from the server.

I'll addendum the post to ask people to include their average latency while testing to see if it plays a role.

 

Protico

It might be worthwhile to at least confirm your results in a no-haste situation, in case for some reason haste applies to the internal CD of WF even though it doesn't generally affect internal CDs.

 

Nite_Moogle

You can't trust the combat log, plain and simple. This goes double since WF is a server-determined proc, so the attack that procs WF may have landed some time before the proc itself is relayed back to the client. In short, there's no combat log timestamp for the proc itself, so the swing results are not always accurate. There have been cases where people have shown less than 3 seconds between procs, but never consistently.

The easiest way to prove it is with weapon speed. The 3 second rule was discovered when people still had 2.9 High Warlord cleavers, which would not proc back to back when not flurried. I am reasonably confident that if you use a 1.5 speed dagger you will eventually get a proc-swing-proc, but this will no longer occur when you add any amount of haste.

 

kronchev

I can help you with this

It's 0. There is no FT cooldown. Why would you think there is?

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It was a question of how the abilities of the fight are handled. I did not know the answer so I come to the place where I expect to see well formulated, concise and correct answers. Not snotty comments. - eclectic778

Vent is only necessary because of bad players. - ebbv

 

Enervate

Flametongue...cooldown?

 

Rouncer

There is some sort of cooldown between Flametongue procs. If you use the same rank of Flametongue with weapons of matched speed you will lose Flametongue procs. However if you change one weapon's imbue so it is a different rank then you get all the procs even with match speeds. So there is some cooldown inherent in the imbue that only applies to each specific rank of the imbue.

Since the proc is reported separately in the /combatlog isn't it simpler to just look for the interval between procs? Since the cooldown is also enforced by the server it shouldn't allow procs to occur inside that cooldown period, right?

 

kronchev

Hmm, no. [Citation needed]

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It was a question of how the abilities of the fight are handled. I did not know the answer so I come to the place where I expect to see well formulated, concise and correct answers. Not snotty comments. - eclectic778

Vent is only necessary because of bad players. - ebbv

 

Rouncer

Hmm, yes. Go test it for yourself if you are too lazy to search for a "citation". Matched weapons with 2xFT (same ranks) and you will lose FT procs. Matched weapons with 2xFT different ranks and you won't lose any procs.

(e) http://elitistjerks.com/1041416-post1150.html is the most recent post on the topic. We had a huge discussion on it back when it was looking like FT/FT with fast/fast ("lightning knives" aka "Malan's Bane") would be the way to go for maximum dps and that was when the cooldown was noted for the first time.

 

Nevets_69

Keep in mind that PPM mechanics never use to scale with haste either. And despite any evidence to date to support it, Blizzard has been telling us (for years now) that they want to take a look at the Windfury mechanics. So it may be possible that they have at least allowed the WF-CD to scale with haste.

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Nite_Moogle

The proc itself isn't reported in the combat log. There's nothing that says "Gained Windfury Weapon". The server regulates the cooldown on it based on when the attack occurred according to the client's claims or when the server thinks it should have happened (whichever is more applicable), so if you lagged in sending a Stormstrike to the server, then a white swing procced it on time, it could appear to your client as less than 3.0 seconds between procs.

Either way, given the amount of haste in the game, the exact timing of it should be provable based on frequency of procs with autoattacks. At the time the cooldown was discovered haste did not exist as an itemization stat, so we could only test it with available weapons, and it was clear the cooldown was greater than 2.9 seconds and less than 3.2.

Also, I find it hilarious that trying to cheese synchronized attacks to abuse Flurry ends up costing you Flametongue procs.

 

Rouncer

I was suggesting more using the timing of the Windfury Attacks themselves. Since if the cooldown is 3 seconds then they shouldn't be able to occur less then 3 seconds apart.

 

Nite_Moogle

And they don't -- serverside, once the timestamps of the attacks that proc WF are lag-corrected. This does not imply in any way that the combat log results are accurate.

 

Rouncer

So then using 2 fast weapons with different speeds and a bunch of haste both with Windfury in Org or UC or TB on the targeting dummies in a constant latency situation where you have 50ms or less to the server should give accurate results when testing for the cooldown.

 

• Binkenstein

I don't think that the combatlog timestamps are correct for anyone. Best way to disprove this would be to get a single weapon & 0/0/0 spec, and hit a dummy for a while. Since there are no speed changes, the combat log should show that your hits are exactly your weapon speed apart (which I very much doubt)

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kronchev

OK, numbers time

I just got two of the formerly bugged Brunn axes and hit up a level 70 dummy. My results:

3.0 base speed axes, with max rank FT on both.


* 346 white melee hits (176 OH)
- 14 misses, misses obviously don't proc FT
* 74 Stormstrike hits
* 47 Lava Lash hits

* 388 FT procs

312 hits + 74 SS (x2 since it hits with BOTH weapons) + 47 LL = Supposedly 507 total FT procs
Remember, every hit is supposed to proc a FT.

Something is obviously wrong. Maybe Recount just sucks at logging. Maybe the Combatlog is fucked. Or maybe, there really is some kind of issue here.

/edit: Then again, if you hit SS with any speed weapons and FT on both, it only procs one hit of FT. The same happens with max ranks and mismatched ranks as well.

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It was a question of how the abilities of the fight are handled. I did not know the answer so I come to the place where I expect to see well formulated, concise and correct answers. Not snotty comments. - eclectic778

Vent is only necessary because of bad players. - ebbv

 

Rouncer

Hmm, so you have found out what we already knew but what you ever so rudely and arrogantly dismissed as being incorrect. Try it with 2 different ranks and watch how you get all the procs you are supposed to get. Personally I haven't tested it at all and really don't care much about the flametongue cooldown (besides knowing in an esoteric way that it exists) because I don't even like the concept of FT/FT being a viable option for enhancement.

Please note that this thread is meant to be about Windfury Weapon and it's cooldown, it's not about Flametongue Weapon and it's "cooldown" on same ranks.

 

vesicular

[edited FT post]

I'm going to agree with Rounced post above me and try to keep this thread on topic instead of derailing it some more like I had.

 

Rouncer

You lose procs whenever the weapons hit at the same time if you are using the same rank of FT on both weapons, this is just more evident if you are using matched speed weapons.

(e) thank you Vesicular. Let this post be the end of that derailment since it really is a pretty simple thing. If you want to discuss it further please make a new thread for testing and discussion of that specific mechanic.

 

kronchev

Yes, but unlike you, I went and brought up numbers to confirm/deny instead of just calling dissenters rude. I actually went and did it to prove you wrong but then was shown that I myself was wrong. That being said, I was dismissive at first so I am sorry, but I have proven something: I do NOT think this is a cooldown. This is a simultaneous proc issue.

And I did try it with 2 different ranks, same result.

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It was a question of how the abilities of the fight are handled. I did not know the answer so I come to the place where I expect to see well formulated, concise and correct answers. Not snotty comments. - eclectic778

Vent is only necessary because of bad players. - ebbv

 

Nite_Moogle

No. Re-read what I posted. You cannot determine client-side exactly when the WF proc occurs on the server. This means the only way to test the time itself is to see at what point you receive WF lockouts using varying weapon speeds.

 

Rouncer

I liked Bink's concept of confirming the log times with autoattack and no haste but since the PTR is down I just used my mage, naked, on a level 60 dummy with a 1.8 sword.

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It looks accurate to at least 1 unit of precision to me and based on a cursory random sampling of attacks through that log file the combatlog seems to match the expected. If it looks like the cooldown works out to 2.8 or 2.9 instead of 3.0 using just the combatlog then we can take it further and look for back to back procs with specific weapon speeds (which should be easy now since we have 2.8, 2.9 and a 3.0 speed 1 hander available for testing).

 

Nite_Moogle

You do realize that testing it with weapon speeds is actually easier, right?