The TTT explains talents, but rarely makes suggestions and how to build them out. Even after 2+ months of Wrath, I am still waffling over 3-5 measly points and where to spend them for resto, I decided to make this here thread as a repository for the collective wisdom on specs and specs alone. Please read the forum guidelines. You are not allowed to post your own spec and ask for opinions.
Edit: Please don't respond with what talents you "like". This is intended to be the definitive answer to "how should I spec?". Based on the chart below, any reader can determine that they should pick up the core talents listed, and add the fills to their liking. No more wondering, no more "rate my spec". As long as you aren't boneheaded, you can more or less use the chart to help.
This can quickly get out of hand, so let's keep it simple. I'm looking to list not ALL possible specs, but the nearly indisputable "core" talents for a spec, PvP and PvE. No backstory, no "this worked great on fight XXX". If you think the talents are not indisputable, then dispute them, but don't get mired in anecdotal evidence.
The format is "A/B/C +X", where X is talents left over after the core of "A/B/C" is complete. Hyperlinks only, let's not clutter up posts with giant lists of talents.
I know PvE resto well, but I'm only guessing on current PvP and the other trees. I will update as best I can.
Enhancement PvE - **The spec still stands because of pre-reqs, but many talents are not required. Rounced explains it throughly here. edit: Adjusted spec. based on suggestions
Enhancement PvP -
Resto PvE - ***You are required to put 6 points into Improved Water Shield, Healing Focus, or Ancestral Healing to move up the tree, though there are 9 to fill total among the talents. The "core" here is pick 2 of those 3 talents and fill the points based on your preference.
Resto PvP - This is just my best guess. Please assist if it requires correction
As for Enhancement, i would always take Enhancing Totems over Ancestral Intellect, as this gets the totem a bit ahead of a Death Kinghts Horn of Winter, thus being better in a raid environment. Also, Intellect is a very small part of our AP hence the downright tiny increase is not nearly worth the increase of the SoE-Totem.
I put the last point into Elemental Focus as i find that particulary in 10man Raids where Replenishment might not be present all the time the Clearcast helps me not to goo OOM too fast, ie before Shamanistic Rage CD refreshs
With enhancement, there is often the option to leave out unleashed rage as well. I would imagine a lot of raids would include a marksmanship hunter, making unleashed rage redundant. Something along a 20/51/0 spec would then be most efficient in terms of dps. Something along these lines 20/51/0 is probably most efficient.
Edit: fixed link and assuming a frost death knight for the full 20% haste buff.
Depending on raid comps and preferences, points can float from Imp. Windfury, Unleashed rage, and Ancestral Knowledge and can be added to Imp. Shields or to fill up Ancestral Knowledge. I have a Frost DK for the 20% melee haste buff so my build is slightly different.
Assuming the ability to spec specifically for PvP, this is my choice:
A lot of personal preferences here as well. Talents of particular interest for enhance PvP are Earthen Power, Toughness, Imp. Ghost Wolf, Elemental Warding, and Improved Fire Nova Totem. The elemental warding talent has been changed to reduce all damage, which means it applies to all dmg. Very nice for a shammy who gets focused a lot. My build focuses on being able to kite other melee, avoid getting snared, keep kiters snared and add some survivability to my squishy toon.
From looking through the specs of top-rated PvP Resto Shaman, their specs differ from your template slightly.
1) Restorative Totems/Mana Tide isn't used by everyone. While more have it now than at the beginning of the season, there's some Shaman who play without it because the majority of the time someone's dead before they're OOM.
2) Few Shaman take 5/5 Nature's Guardian. As I understand it, the talent works as chance to proc on any hit where you're below 30%, not only on the first hit that takes you below 30%. As such, as long as the talent procs before you die, you got the full benefit, and you're likely to be hit enough times between 30% and 0 that it will go off.
I know we can't avoid this 100%, but guys, be as generic as possible. Leave the personal choices up to readers looking for just a baseline.
Try to answer this question:
What talents are required for my spec? (this talent is a -must- for a spec)
Avoid:
All the reasons why someone -might- use a talent.
Situational talents.
Any talent that is playstyle dependent.
You do know that it is all subjective right?
There is a reason why "look at my spec" posts are prohibited and that's all you are creating with this thread.
This thread belongs on the official forums and even that is a stretch given what you've posted so far. These forums are meant for people who understand enough about the class to know the minimum barebone talents for the spec they are interested in. Which is why the "look at my spec crap" is banned because when you get here it shouldn't be "look at my spec" posts it should be "How does 23 str and agi for my entire raid compare in overall raid dps to my getting an additional 6% intellect?"
This thread really needs to go to only one place, the trash.
There is a reason why "look at my spec" posts are prohibited and that's all you are creating with this thread.
This thread belongs on the official forums and even that is a stretch given what you've posted so far. These forums are meant for people who understand enough about the class to know the minimum barebone talents for the spec they are interested in. Which is why the "look at my spec crap" is banned because when you get here it shouldn't be "look at my spec" posts it should be "How does 23 str and agi for my entire raid compare in overall raid dps to my getting an additional 6% intellect?"
This thread really needs to go to only one place, the trash.
Going to have to agree. Specs are largely situational with raid comps and there is a lot of subjective decision-making in placing floating points.
It seems that you're trying to make a thread "Speccing Shaman for Dummies" and you're trying to over-simplify a process that is greatly dependent on the individual.
PvE depends greatly on your raid comp, and specs can vary widely.
PvP depends greatly on the size of your team and the classes/play style of your partner(s) in Arena.
Rounced, I think you are being a bit shortsighted. I realize it is shaky ground to start up this sort of topic, but I'm looking more of something to add to the TTT plus some debate as to what is a necessity versus the inst-moderated "I do awesome with this spec".
It's one thing to wittle down individual talents as you described, but those conclusions need to have a baseline. Core choices are not as obvious as you make it sound, and lots of people base their math in various threads by starting with "if you have talent X and talent Y, then the numbers come out to Z, but if...". Sometimes those ifs are necessary, because there is some subjectivity and playstyle involved. However, many of those ifs have different starting points as a base build.
I have my own suggestion for Resto PvE, but I didn't think 6 threads was worth the amount of information required. If we can come to an agreement on what is the best core, and why, then the thread can die a happy death, and the info can be moved to the TTT. If it needs to be dungheaped immediately, then I'll take my week(s) off without complaint.
t seems that you're trying to make a thread "Speccing Shaman for Dummies" and you're trying to over-simplify a process that is greatly dependent on the individual.
If that is how it is perceived, then I definitely had the wrong approach. Again, I am trying to get a TTT style thing going. I am looking to find out what is not subjective.
Don't know about you, but I'm pretty sure this is covered in the separate spec topics (Ok, so I need to do a post 3.0.8 sweep to fix up some stuff), and I'm fairly certain that basic specs will be covered.
Rounced, I think you are being a bit shortsighted.
Enhancement level 80 PvE Spec - Manditory Talents
Elemental Devastation
Elemental Fury
Thundering Strikes (pre-req)
Flurry
Spirit Weapons (pre-req)
Dual Wield
Weapon Spec
Stormstrike
Mental Dexterity
Mental Quickness
Shamanistic Rage
Maelstrom Weapon
Feral Spirit (once you have 5/5 MW there is no other place you can put a point that will give more dps)
After that everything else is completely subjective. Enhancing Totems is subjective since if you are in a fight with a lot of movement you may not want to overwrite Horn of Winter since you may not be in range of the totem all the time. That is the only justification for it since the raid dps gained from the 23 str and agi far outperforms what you get from 6% more Intellect.
Unleashed Rage - mandatory unless buff is being provided by a MM Hunter or a Blood DK
Improved Windfury Totem - mandatory unless buff is being provided by a Frost DK.
Every single other talent in the trees is subjective and requires Sim time to determine the best way to allocate points based on your personal stat values.
That's just it, Bink, there isn't. People say "I'm using spec X/X/X and my results using the sim got _this_" or "I am specced X/X/X with Y gear and ...".
To a degree, yes, you must define your spec before posting numbers, but if everyone uses the same starting point to extrapolate, then we can have a more concise definition and uniformity.
Does the enhancement SIM thread have a "use this spec for highest DPS"? I couldn't find it. Does it have lightning shield versus water shield comparisons? YES. Does it tell you whether static shock and Improved Shields are part of the spec for the comparison? Not really. Do elemental threads have comparisons of LB to LvB with X points in Shamanism? YES. Does that tell you whether Call of Flame should be part of that spec? no.
The threads get so mired in the fine points (or the OP's are unedited) that good info gets lost. Hence the TTT. I want good info on specs I know less about than other players. Your spec is your starting point to determine how you play. If it should be changed because you don't like it or the numbers don't agree with you, fine, but the starting point is still required.
To a degree, yes, you must define your spec before posting numbers, but if everyone uses the same starting point to extrapolate, then we can have a more concise definition and uniformity.
Does the enhancement SIM thread have a "use this spec for highest DPS"? I couldn't find it.
I really hope you never can find it because it means we have been pigeon holed into one spec.
CAN YOU LOOK AT MY SPEC?
I dare anyone to post their spec, asking others for their opinions. I triple fucking dog dare it. Test it, have a WWS to share, whatever. But I damn well better not see better not just see a freaking link and a "WAT ADVICES HLP PLZ."
What are you doing that is any different then that except on a much grander scale?
By the way, if you want to do this for Resto or Elemental (may want to check with Bink on that one) go right ahead but we have the TTT for enhancement for a reason and there is no reason for you to include us in your thread considering you don't really seem to have a firm grasp on our mechanics anyway.
Does the enhancement SIM thread have a "use this spec for highest DPS"? I couldn't find it. Does it have lightning shield versus water shield comparisons? YES. Does it tell you whether static shock and Improved Shields are part of the spec for the comparison? Not really. Do elemental threads have comparisons of LB to LvB with X points in Shamanism? YES. Does that tell you whether Call of Flame should be part of that spec? no.
That is the point. If you can understand the discussions on the Enhance sim thread about EP stepping and the importance of capping hit and expertise and you are able to download, setup, and run the sim, you should certainly be able to spec your toon. Speccing is by far the simplest part of the process.
Yes, there is discussion about static shock and improved shields throughout the thread. Static shock is understood to be points you spend. Improved shields is also discussed.
I cannot say for sure about the elemental thread, but I gather that you don't know that these things are discussed because the threads in which the discussions take place are not familiar to you. Which is fine. But I assure you that the discussions are there. It just may be that they have not taken place since early in the threads because there is an understood idea of how these talents interact by now and we know what works best and what falls in a gray area where you are more free to choose.
Durnitol paged me to this thread and asked me to make a ruling. He's a quality contributor here and is just trying to be helpful*.
I agree with Rounced/Bink/et.al that the the information in this thread should be found in the TTT under a Spec subsection. If one has additions to make to the TTT's spec subsection, one should post those additions in the comments thread tied to the TTT entry, or PM the TTT's publisher. The goal is a fine one, but because specs are so subjective, this thread probably isn't going to be overly productive and not valuable as a longer term reference (like the TTT).
01/21/09, 1:28 PM
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